tasmlab

Hi Xelent, perhaps I did misunderstand. My wife looked at a similar sounding school and it was all student led, like homeschooling but not at home. One kid who had been homeschooled was there and said it was the closest thing to homeschooling he'd experienced. All in all it sounds good and sounds like it would be a good place to meet friends and learn, but I could imagine it taking a lot of time away from the family, despite them encouraging family participation. Although I bet it would be great for families where both parents absolutely have to work 9-5. My preference would be hundreds of different educational models out there. We pretty much got public, private and then homeschool. Although I'm discovering that the last can really be free market education. I'd love a school like you describe where we could dump the kids for one or two days a week.

This is one of the hardest parts to get your mind around. There's a huge instinct to recreate the rigid tops down agenda that school provides, but that's not the point. You just let your children learn and help them when they need it. It doesn't need to have this monolithic start with a regimented plan that is fool proof and covers all contingencies. You are just going to let it flow naturally. Kids want to learn. From what I've read, a lot of the instinct to watch TV all day comes from the fact that kids in school are taught to be passive listeners as they are forced to sit in a chair and listen to lecture all day. Then they are so exhausted from the seven hour day that they lack the energy or curiosity to do much else. In the end, if your child falls into some TV trap you may have to negotiate less TV. I really don't think this will be a big issue. (disclosure: I'm new to this) I second everything Wesley just wrote. This might be true for some kids, but I would be hesitant to say that it applies to all. I'd be hesitant to say that there is ANYTHING that applies to all, which is kind of a very fundamental libertarian kind of idea. I don't warm to the idea that indoctrinating the kids from 4-8 in a school, creating emotional and intellectual dependency, putting grades and competition on them, destroying their home life, etc. would be productive for most kids. This said, I did put my eldest in school from 5-8 and we are now just starting out unschooling, so I don't even have an anecodote to base my current opinion. She still seems pretty cool and is being delivered to me able to read, write and do some simple math. I don't think the schooling was necessary.

Everything I've read suggests you may be thinking about unschooling slightly off target. The purpose is to let the child flourish where they want to learn, not recreate the screws of the public curriculum and grading system in the home. My advice is wait until he is at least 14 and then start talking college. If there are any gaps in his knowledge that would screw up an entrance exam, you'll easily be able to learn what's missing in time. And he'll likely be ahead anyways. And the unschooling idea often forgoes college too (while not a homeschooler expert, James Altrucher has good things to say about skipping college). And college might not even exist as we know it by the time your boy is ready. And he's 3 and half! Let him play legos and look under rocks for a bit before signing him up for university :-) (disclaimer: I'm only beginning unschooling with my children - I don't have an experienced opinion, more of a 'book' opinion)

This doesn't directly affect your argument but is nice table setting. Less than 1% of the US population and maybe about 2% of the workforce actually earn minimum wage, and about 4% of the hourly workforce make minimum. It's not like it's a problem that is endemic to everybody. Two-thirds of this population are all at the bottom of their careers, being 22 years or younger. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm So even before we get into economic impact, multipliers, the violence of the state, providing tips, etc., it's not as if we have all of these heads of families earning the low pay. You can congratulate your friend for identifying some political minutia that's pretty boring considering the US government they love currently spends $500B a year murdering brown people overseas. I've heard some politicians (Rand Paul I think) cleverly say that we shouldn't make working illegal for people not worth the minimum wage. I doubt this will get you far with a lefty friend. I think there is also something about McDonalds workers in particular that's easy to target since everyone, even young people, actually get to see and interact with them. And to some degree almost everybody at some point in their life has had this looming fear that if things got tough enough in their own lives, they may have to take a job at McDonalds.

That's pretty interesting about what you learn in Europe on libertarianism. Even though 99% of Americans reject libertarianism, there is a libertarian mythology about the country that is even taught in schools e.g., the American way, independence, free markets, entrepreneurship, rugged individualism, the American dream, the founding fathers, praising the likes of Payne, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, with the term 'liberty' strewn throughout even the most jingoistic of pro-government songs. It's on some of our money etc. As I type this, I'm even a little baffled to how the school somehow promotes this libertarian heritage/mythology and then, without any formal turning point, essentially throws it out the window and teaches the opposite. They never dare use the term "libertarian" though. I think they promote the idea of liberty being a feature of the state i.e., it is our government that gives us our liberty. This topic might be worthy of its own thread in Education.

Math is for nerds anyways. We'd kick there ass in NFL football if they bother to play it.

Intuitively, "man NOT exploiting man" would be the opposite. I've just added zero value to the thread.

Reminds me of a favorite quote: "There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything."

Folks sure is friendly here ( in comparison. ) Here here. Capitalism is sort of a negative concept like "atheism" or "freedom", meaning that it just describes the non-existence of something that doesn't necessarily have to exist in the first place. Critics of capitalism, as I've seen, often want to describe it as a 'system' with discrete goals, controls and objectives, etc. when it is really just freely interacting individuals.

I get a little worried about the delegation of authority i.e., if the scout master insists that reverence to god is virtuous and obedience to the state is right, I'll have to press on my son that the scout master's authority isn't flawed in a lot of places. But even as I type this, it sounds like a healthy thing to do. We go through a little bit with Karate lessons where they must shout mantras about loyalty and submission and stuff. Next week, I'm moving from Massachusetts to South Carolina - I guess I'll get to see how Christian the South really is!

Ha! My boy has a version of Cap's shield and two Captain America action figures. I'm worried about Boy Scouts as it is a quasi-military Christian organization that holds obedience and reverence as key statutes, but then my son will probably want to join. I had a blast as a boy scout myself.

He could, at least, as a courtesy, change it to something that isn't so easy to misspell. The uex stuff is kind of nuts here in the US.

My preference is use them only when am really fucking angry or have something absolutely fucking hilarious to say. I have three young children, so my wife and I don't tend to curse like we used to. I do notice that if I"m pumping gas or am out and about the townies where I live pepper so much of their language with it, for no particular emphasis, that they do sound crass and stupid overall. Maybe it's not JUST the swearing, but it certainly helps. I think your point above is generally right, but if your mom doesn't like it I would extend the respect or kindness to not do it, just as I wouldn't fart or smoke in someone's presence who didn't like it. Courtesy. Wow, every body is posting at once. As for 'alarming', they are supposed to be by design, yes? I don't think a parent should punish kids for using them, but it's handy/useful knowledge to be told that they are used for special emphasis or to express shock/alarm/outrage, etc.

I don't totally know! It was probably the last hinge for us to unscrew in our thinking. The people you meet at school are as arbitrary as anywhere. As it stands now, the dozen or so kids that come by for play dates were not met at school but either from the neighborhood or activities (soccer). As I remember, most of the school day you aren't supposed to socialize but instead sit and a chair with good posture and be quiet. You get to raise your hand and only get to address the teacher. I think we'll be able to fulfill the socialization of recess and lunch time on our own. We'll start with continuing Karate lessons and horse back riding. Maybe we'll see if the swim team appeals to them. Then there is also homeschooling groups (lets see if I can find a non-Christian one) and maybe we'll get a social membership to the country club. I think some art lessons are in order, too.

As a card-carrying anti-statist, I'm going to beg you to get rid of the Captain America costume in favor of, say, Spider-man or maybe Ironman ;-)

Source: "The Road to Serfdom" At least in this book, his most famous, he briefly mentions that there is a role for the government in providing help for the poor and some services. It may sound pretty bad to a Rothbardian ancap, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I guess there's the mainstreamish idea of dystopian anarchy were we all run around killing each other for gas and food in our mohawks and disputes are settled in a thunderdome.

This is pretty brazen. Besides the plain ole' call for violence, they don't spend too much time wondering if part of this wealth is Wal-mart itself, operating capital, etc. Nor do they wonder if it would be a good idea to just squander that money in two minutes. Nor do they quite think through where poor people probably get a lot of their food and consumer goods. Check out the link. Some nicely prepared info graphics: http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8b226885dfe9c931726fc4c5e&id=91b359f93d&e=3d5f94a162

I think you are selling the 8 and unders a little short on their ability to understand fantasy vs. reality. Even at 2 they can play cooking and know pretty well it's not real, as in mysterion's example (my 2 year old will also serve fake cookies for us to eat). I think the danger more lies in not dispelling fantasy, like the reinforcement of religion. Then you've got ideas that look like fantasy but are claimed not to be. I could see confusion setting in there. But we know that here already.

Hi Stephenscorzo, How do you mean 'facilitator'? Do you mean you and your wife, or an external organization like an association? Or a tutor or nanny?

That's great!

My older daughter has mixed feelings. She likes her friends at school. It appeals to my K age boy. Both seem to understand. We are making a cross-country move, so there is some elegance in the timing. We'll have a new city, new house, new approach to learning. This big change helped the case with my wife as well.

HI friends, My wife and I have finally decided to homeschool our kids! It's been a long analysis and we're finally on board. Starting on Dec 10 my eight year old daughter and five year old son will not be going to school anymore and hopefully my two year old never sees one. I absolutely FEASTED on John Taylor Gatto's "Dumbing us down" and "Weapons of Mass Instruction". They were great. Highly recommended. I also read Ron Paul's "The School Revolution". Oh, and I've listened to about 800 FDR podcasts too. I can't believe how long it took me to get my head around this. I've been a libertarian for 15 years and it still took a lot of mulling and study. I guess that's how powerful my own public schooling was. Anyways, I'm really excited. Thanks for reading!

BTW - Follow up!!! Breaking news! My wife and I are going to start unschooling/homeschooling on December 10th. We're really excited! I finally got her to agree. 1. We'll find other places to make friends. 2. Teach them competition. Let them play community sports. Just because something is taught at a school doesn't mean it can't be taught elsewhere. 3. Except that homeschool kids often accomplish crazy advanced things. For example, google Ben Swann. 4. It's not really about you, but letting the kids explore and learn what they want. You don't need to be a school-style teacher. I know these are thin answers, but keep studying. I certainly don't have them all, but I'm going to jump in and learn!

We're just about ready to homeschool. I'm 100% there and my wife is about 70%. She's nervous about it! I just completely feasted on John Taylor Gatto's books "dumbing us down" and "weapons of mass instruction". They were fabulous. They criticize compulsory education. Highly recommended. Your case against public schools will be sharp. There's (at least) two sides to the argument: one is showing the damage that factory school does; the other is showing the potential a liberated child can achieve if encouraged to be curious and thoughtful and not being made to sit immobile in a desk all day and be forced to raise their hands to use the bathroom.