Josh -Lel-

Obviously "I feel it" is not an argument for anything that self-contradicts. You can't say you "feel God" and therefore God exists, just like you couldn't say you "feel" a square circle and therefore it exists. And I would say free will is another one of those "square circle" cases... (or at least seems like it; matter acting independently from cause and effect). That's just the test of logical consistency that needs to be passed before you get to the empiricism. It's really quite confusing, but I think the evidence for free will might be in the fact that you must assume free will is true to make any argument about reality. If every argument had the logically necessity of presuming God's existence, it would be necessary to say God exists to make an argument.I'm pointing this out because this is the problem that anyone runs into making an argument against free will. To say that there is criteria for "truth" that free will does not meet is to assume free will (alternate states and preferences) is true. Does that prove free will? I really don't know, but it's breaking my mind trying to comprehend it...What are anybody's thoughts on this so that I don't have to think about it anymore?EDIT: I really hope I'm not deterring to far from the original subject. These are just my own thoughts and my personal dilemma with the subject...

What's an "attempt"? Deterministically, "consequences" is just another word for "effects" so saying that it will lead to "consequences" is kind of irrelevant, since it was determined to happen either way. Yes, I was depressed before I had thought about it. Now I'm just more depressed. Are you suggesting I shouldn't be depressed? Yeah, sounds like you're giving into your free will delusions again. If there were a huge reduction of violence in the world, it would be predetermined and all past and present violence would be necessary in causal chain of events. EDIT: PFFT HAHA I ALMSOT FORGOT! There is no such thing as "illusions" in a deterministic universe. That would imply possible alternate states. I guess your next big illusion to overcome is illusio-- wait... Well... it's the fact that I don't really control anything. No choices, no actions, no good or evil, no true or false, no better or worse, NO alternate states or preferences... just a train on a preset path with no possibilities in going in any other direction. No "me," and all my thoughts and everyone else's are just meaningless. That's not depressing to you?

Wow, Kevin. good longpost!!! :) We still has to figure out the applicability of causality to all parts of universe before we create any conclusions; especially those about human consciousness and behavior.

Actually, that makes me feel a lot more depressed. Although the feeling of "specialness" is probably a basic survival mechanism built into our brains, I'd find it hard to argue there is anything more unique or special in the universe than consciousness. Well, he wouldn't be "wrong" because there was no possibility of him being anything else. He'll just be aware of the train tracks.I think the only way we'll ever figure this out is if we push these thoughts and theories to their full boundaries, and I believe the best way to do that is to make the theories as close and as easily practicible as possible.Here's a question we can start with: Do I CHOOSE whether or not I continue to believe in free will?We'll just work off that and see where it goes. EDIT: Ignore these empty quotesEDiT: I hope my question wasn't too stupid; I know determinism concludes that we don't have choices, but I'm wondering how a determinism deals with the question as a whole.

Thanks. That makes me feel better... got a message informing me that the mods don't ban people for talking about the free will/determinism topic, since they're luckily on a predetermined path of not caring about it. We're off the hook, gentlemen... Yeah, this is a different topic anyway. And from what I'm told, it's more discouraged than it is unacceptable, so it's cool.

Ah craps guys, I just looked at the forum guidelines, and determinism/free will is a bannable topic. We're all VERY screwed if we don't do something quick and figure out how to hide/delete our posts in this thread.

Well, we are definitely made of matter. I'm not sure how that changes in the free will perspective, since consciousness is still defined as an effect of matter (at least by scientific philosophers). I have a more general question regarding free will, if anyone would be interested in answering: What evidence is there that suggests free will exists? Is it based right off some fact or theory that consciousness implies but I am not aware of*, or is it just a huge historical assumption that's been built into our culture and our brains?

I'm willing to hear new theories, but my idea of free will is this: actions and choices that are made independently from cause and effect. Kind of like an apple appearing out of nothingness without a cause. And I'm talking about the decisions we make with our brains ourselves, not the acting out of that decision. Are you telling me that free will could possibly be like a spherical "structure" wherein effects are the causes of themselves? It's an interesting idea actually, if that's what you're talking about. Doesn't quite give a definitive answer but I guess it leads to more possibilities.

There is empirical evidence (sensory confirmation) and logical consistency to the existence of the matter that makes up our bodies and living organisms. There isn't any empirical evidence for free will (besides "feeling" it in the abstract sense) or logical consistency (defying the universe's causal nature) to the idea that we make our own choices. I'd rather have confirmation of free will through some definitive proof rather than be left what seems like the deterministic reality of the universe and us, since the nature of it and the implications are quite emptying, demeaning and saddening in my opinion. Although I'd also like to hear Rainbow's view on determinism and why he might feel differently about that.

I strongly want to learn towards believing free will is true, but my conflict is that I can't find or understand any explanation of how free will would be logically possible. And on the other hand, a universally deterministic universe seems logically consistent and possible, but is a very emptying and depression thought for me. I didn't quite understand the responses/arguments for free will in this thread, so maybe there will be more clarity in a real-time discussion, if we have one.

Whenever someone says to me "Let's agree to disagree." I tell them, "Let's agree that you're wrong and leave it at that."

I really didn't quite understand your explanation, not to be annoying or anything. That's probably just my general impairment in the learning center though. Perhaps it would be better, as you mentioned, if we had some sort of real-time skype conversation about it? My skype is hackshacks2 if anyone wants to add me to talk about this.

Ugh, my bad -- I made a stupid mistake. Sorry guys.

This is really bad news. I guess I'm going to die early.

How can someone sign up an account here and still be retarded enough to not know why capitalism is advocated by FDR? It's not about efficiency. ** EDIT: I'm sorry about this comment, it was really uncalled for. Sorry to any the newcomers who may have been turned away by this -- politeness and empathy are emphasized here, especially to the uninitiated. It's just that I see a lot of threads/posts like this and I would think they would look at each other, but that's obviously not always the case. I hold myself responsible for any people who may have been discouraged, confused or offended by this. And finally, it was a really unempathetic comment. I'm working on that and I thank anyone who points that out for what it is.

Unconscious (sleeping, coma) people can't reason. Does that mean they don't own themselves?

Asking if you would increase taxes to save lives is like asking if you would increase the salary of a hitman to save his victims.

Kids can usually understand complex, philosophical concepts if their parents aren't getting mad at them for doing so. I would say he is still feeling that pressure in his reluctancy.