Coreforcruxes

Just a thought, have you considered or looked for some kind of support group in your area? I have no idea of their possible efficacy.

How have you been doing LooseBrick? are you making any progress, have you found acceptable methods and literature to help you?***** I donated an extra $10 this month, thank you to Falsarius Rex, Holo Cene, Wesley, and Callmeal for posting *****

Well, of course If you can manage or justify it in any way please seek out a professional to help you. Not only is that something I believe to be the best option but I have also seen many many people here recommend the same thing for anyone seeking help in addressing a history of harm no matter the degree.Is therapy a viable option for you? ....forget grains of salt, I can with all confidence say that finding a good therapist is your best course of action if you can swing it.

Again, please take anything i say with a huge grain of salt.It is my understanding that it is dangerous for a victim to sympathize with their abuser. As far as having a general scope of human compassion and not wanting someone, anyone to die or get hurt thats understandable. But, when you are in pain and its them or you please choose yourself, you did nothing wrong and do not deserve the torment.Also, if you offer an explanation as to why you also hold your AM accountable I imagine they will understand. The last time you interacted with your extended family was it on good terms? have they reached out to you?

Hi Loosebrick, I have been keeping an eye on your post for a bit and I am disappointed that it has not gotten more feedback from the board. That of course does not mean that the folks here do not care but probably alot of them feel like I do, that they are very moved by your circumstance but feel incapable of safely offering advice. Personally, I feel like am in no emotional place or intellectual position to responsibly offer you much advice.but you did say this..."I'm in so much pain. I've been sad for so long that my tolerance leaves me numb. I have no family. Can't find my birth family, cutoff from my adopted family. I don't know anyone on the planet that shares my blood. I have a few close friends but they all live in different states. I'm alone and lonely. I'm so alone. I have no one. Nobody loves me. Nobody throws me parties. I haven't received a gift from a friend since middle school. I haven't been hugged in 18 years."Imagining your pain and knowing the depths of my own has moved me to finally post something.I am so sorry for what you went through.I said I would not offer much advice, this is what stuck out to me, just please take it with a huge grain of salt coming from someone who has not delt with his own issues. "I have cut myself off from my entire adoptive family, including cousins and aunts and uncles. I feel really bad about not seeing my extended family. Why should I have to stop talking to them because I'm too embarrassed to tell them the truth about my parents? I don't know if I should contact my cousins/aunts now, or wait until my AF passes away. If I wait then my other relatives won't have the choice of confronting him, and they'll be less likely to believe me. If I tell them now there's a possibility that AF will go ballistic and do something horrible."If you feel safe contacting your extended adoptive family and want to contact them I imagine that that might be some social contact you sound like you need.>> I can relate the story of a friend of mine who was in a similar situation with her birth father, If I recall the story correctly she while in her early 20's (after getting into watching Stefan's videos I believe) posted her story on facebook and thats how the whole family found out. She had family coming out of the woodworks to support her and he was instantly ostracized. << I am not saying that she is you or any of that should translate to your circumstances its just a anecdote that came to mind.Would you mind expanding on what you imagine the AF is capable of doing when you refer to his going ballistic and doing something horrible.There is at least one large incentive to report him (and her) that I can imagine, left unaddressed they may harm someone else.*** to the rest of FDR, this post personally moved me and I feel I cannot be of much help, please give it some attention and I will donate an extra $10, thanks. If anyone feels my advice is poor please correct me *** LooseBrick, I do not mean to quantify your pain or circumstance with a dollar amount I just know that pain is... pain, and I believe you when you say that you are in it and one person to another I just want to help even a little bit If I can.

I wish I had enough experience with journaling to give you confident advice but I don't. All I can say is that I am happy with my progress. I try to write just before bed, but i often stretch my day out too far and don't get to it. One thing emilia (and again, I am an amateur here) did not mention is that it also leaves you a record, and if you are practicing and developing your empathy then you can look back at yourself and empathize with where you were and what you were going through at the time.I have found alot of help from posting here in the forums, there are some really great people here.

Just a public service announcement, I am 39 days into no cigarettes at all and only a social glass of wine at special events. Not that i had a serious problem with either but I probably spent at least $30 a month on alcohol and cigarettes. I had largely cut back on both already and never had too serious a problem, but decided that both were impractical in my life right now and only crutches and self medication I could cope without. I had already mostly gotten over the chemical addiction and have been doing alot of self work since about August. I have followed Stefan's work since spring of 2012, and participated in FDR since about October. Asking for the community here to care about my problems (i created [aside from my parents contribution]) inspired me to begin donating (and having an income helped). I know for certain that the work to quit was done by me, I also know that I would not have quit had not been for my experiences from Stefan's work, and my interactions with the FDR community. So right now, after having quit cigs and booze and averaging a monthly donation of about $23 (ish?), I net about $7 a month. Thank you Stefan, Micheal and everyone else, you are all the best.

I have met with my parents twice now, last saturday and yesterday. Driving up to see them I was anxious and distracted (driving), could not focus. But I was a little optimistic, thinking, this could work, they might get it.My plan was to approach it logically and philosophically. Knowing that emotions would not get very far. I have tried to keep other people out of how I deal with my relationship with my parents but it effects my older and younger brother. The younger brother I sadistically tormented in our youth and I am cautious not to do anything that could harm him now.{off the main topic} I spoke to my younger brother this past friday because I have been meaning to do so for awhile. He is probably my biggest victim in life. I was very violent, manipulative and hurtful to him. He has no illusions about it, and fully recalls childhood memories I cannot. When I was 13 we remember my breaking down crying and apologizing to him for being creul, though that did not stop me from later being hurtful and abusinve though maybe not as evil. His method of "dealing" with the past is to not address it and move on. I am not confident about what to do in regards to him so I apologized profusley and told him that I would be there for him in whatever capacity I could be, I offered to help out with therapy if he ever chose to get it. He says the things do not bother him (I am not sure if I should convince him that unresolved issues have negative effects in his life or not, he has his peace for the moment and I hope he wakes up seeing me handle these issues) any more and that he does not think about it. So I told him that if he ever does want to talk about it or if it ever does bother him, I am there for him and that he deserves for me to make it up to him and that I would be there however I could. In addressing my parents my younger brother defends them both now (used to hate our father, always loved our mother) and blames his emotional problems on myself and our older brother mistreating him. I accept all the feelings he has for me and apologize I do not blame our parents or try to deflect (though I do not alter my feelings about them nor the capacity to which I feel they were responsable. {back on track} I layed out logic and philosphy... gold, veritable proofs of how they were responsable and should be accountable. It was all water off a ducks back. In that first meeting I came away knowing for certain that ultimatley my parents were never interested in knowing me as a person only in programming me to be what suited there needs (what they claim is in my best interest). I got them to flat out admit that they viewed themselves as superior to me, my authority that has the right to act on my behalf whether I wished it or not. I told them that that would not work in a relationship with me, it was in fact the problem. I kept pointing out their contradictions. How they wanted to be treated fairly but the terms of their relationship was the definition of not fair. He kept asking what I expected to get from this what I wanted to accomplish. I reminded him that my being there was a consequence of their getting involved in my life that I was dealing with things on my own. I said I had put it off too long anyway and wanted to see, I wanted to see for myself and confirm who they were and how they would act.At one point my father (upset and irritated) got close to me and I asked him to give me space, he got offended that I would treat him like a stranger and I told him that he had a history of violence with me and that I had a responsability to protect myself, I let him know that I was afraid of him. I left that night after alot of yelling and my father saying I was disowned and not allowed back on his property. That did not hurt, I was prepared to lose the relationship it was impractical to expect much. But I also needed to see, I knew It would be healing to confront them. And in alot of ways it was, I cried at the thought and relived memory of how alone I felt as a child, and how I detached myself from the world because of that. How in every relationship after that I fundamentally did not trust anyone and later could not trust anyone because I did not know myself. Later in the week my father called and asked me to come back the next weekend to have a chat like normal, no talking about our issues, just hanging out. He has a history of making extreme threats and saying the most terrible things and then later acting like it never happened. I told him that it made no sense to act like nothing was wrong when there was clearly a huge problem. We argued for a bit but in the end, I told him to check back with me later that I might come back to talk but that I would not just act like everything was ok. One of my motivations for going back was to get some guns of mine, and because I felt like no matter what happend, if I stuck to my convictions and did not spare them any of my truth hurtful or not then in the end If it were best never to see them again I would know very clearly why, and if my brothers tried to address them after me perhaps i would have paved the way a bit. I stayed and talked for about 10 hours in all, the first half of the day we spent time amicably enough. Then shorly after I brought up wanting my guns we got back into going over our issues. I tried in general not to show any vulnerability to them, that they did not deserve it. But any time I lost my composure and saw their lack of empathy it was very edifying. I made it clear that I understood they cared more about there own feelings than mine. I also made it clear that I held them both equally responsable, even though my mother had always been the sympathetic ear in issues with my father, I could also see how she had been instrumental in making sure things never fundamentally changed. This go around we got into more detailed issues, last week we did not get past a couple simple points, spanking is bad etc. My father kept trying to change the subject or bring up less trivial issues, I would take the bait a bit but brought the conversation back to the issue at hand. I got things off of my chest that had bugged me for years about his hypocrisy. I got plenty of the ususal, ungrateful, dis-respectful. When presented with the idea that I could not know how to raise kids until I had, I pointed out that I could know how I as a child felt. I would remind them that their lack of care for what the child felt then was the problem that still existed to that day. They were not interested in me only in how they could better manage me. All in all it was pretty confrontational. At the end of the day we left on amicable enough terms, I said I might go back in a week or so. We are communicating but nobody is giving any ground on their positions. I am not sure of the end goal I have here, I guess it is simply to stick to my guns and see where this goes as long as the practical circumstances of my life allow it. If by some miracle they were to "see the light" it could be instumental in my extended family avoiding the same problems and some of them that spank thinking twice. And It could be very helpful for my brothers dealing with them if and when they ever chose to. Ever since talking to them yesterday I have felt better and my mind has been clearer. Though I am trying to be aware of whether that is because I actually resolved issues or because having been around them I regressed and rebuilt some emotional walls. i suspect the truth is a little of both I am trying to let myself develop a habit of being able to stay focused through my productive day and not get introspectively side tracked and then doing my emotional work in the evenings. There is more but that is all I have for now, thanks all.

Mulțumesc mult, Mr.Moore

Ultimatley, that was an excuse I was making for them. To say that they complied with their standard for love even if it was irrational. Agreed. And thank you. Also agreed, yeah making petty threats like that (and my seeing it that way) made it easier to address them. Mwwwwwa!, pure, gold.I met with them and ultimatley the sadist won out in my father... if he ever had an internal conflict. Either way I know the only practical and productive way for me to regard it. As for my mother I could not bring myself to say "what you called love, was wanting".I am sorry you did not get what you wanted from him, but I am glad you got rid of the burden. at this point (post meeting w parents) I think I know the feeling. At this point I can also say that your (and all others) post(s) here were very helpful and I am so glad I found this community.>>>I wrote a long and detailed explanation and follow up on the meeting I had with my parents, but hit a back key and lost it, I will try to post one tomorrow.

No, I have not totally ruled out doing it in person, but I want to at least get my thoughts down clearly on paper. Even though its tough and I am not making a whole lot of headway toward completing a letter, the process I think is helpful. I am worried about doing something in person and caving, too many years of dysfunction and manipulation. I'd rather send a letter than have that happen, plus, they would be the cowards if I sent a letter like that and it went unread or dismissed. I am reminded of the beginning of one of Stefan's books, where he says "this book will change you no matter what, even if you stop reading now, you will know that you are afraid of change". (please pardon the terrible probable misquote)

Thank you for your reply cynicist, you are not too late, all week I have found it very difficult to write the letter, sitting down now to try again. Thanks Everyone, I donated an extra $10 yesterday.

I have no problems giving others what they give me, but maintaining a relationship means I have to be an asshole all the time (or feel sadistic) then that just doesn't seem kosher.

Wow, I have read all the replies and appreciate them all, Thank you so much guys. Josh F: "Unfortunately, I can't really answer any of your questions with advice, I think you'll ultimately make choices you're comfortable owning. It kind of just happens, if that even makes any sense?" - that in and of itself is beautiful advice, thanks for that and your sharing your experiences I gained a lot from reading them. Da Vinci: Thanks Da Vinci, I am going to try to be very aware of whether they care more about their illusion or me. In the end I won't accept them entertaining any illusions with me. As to trying to keep my calm I will have to think about that, thanks for the advice. Annick: Annick, I really appreciate the time and effort you have spent here and I am sorry you or any here have had to deal with issues like these but I am inspired at the same time. Your explanation of it being a process was very helpful, it had the effect of reducing some of my anxiety to get things perfect (a method that historically has proven to be a recipe for failure for me). Thank you very very much. Funny you mention Alice Miller, I am most of the way through "The Drama of the Gifted Child". For such a small book I am finding it very difficult to get through every page or two I have to stop and reflect for awhile. I have been "reading" it for months now.

In reply to Annick: Thank you very much for your reply to my post and I had no idea that your english was anything other than from one native to the language. Your story helped me alot. I know that I fear getting stuck in that cycle of feeling free then falling back into the family position and later feeling like a failure for doing so, I will not accept that. What is my deepest motivation with confronting them?... I don't know, I am ambivalent and conflicted. For the past couple months I have been putting it off saying i'll deal with it on my terms and timeline. though, I do have a pattern of procrastination and this is likely the thing i need to address most. A part of me feels bad for them, but I try to stay conscious of how my sympathy for them is inferior to my need for acknowledgement and reprisal or closure and moving on. I have a standard for what is acceptable in a relationship with them and am willing to be patient if I see reason to be, but I am not willing to maintain a dysfunctional relationship. I guess its ok if in genuinely letting my emotions out I yell and am angry at them and let my younger self be heard. But, If I constantly have to defend myself or feel like I have taken the mantle of abuser in the long run I will also find that not acceptable, I don't want to be that person. what will I do if the situation does not meet a certain standard?... I will end my relationship with them. I appreciate your advice to treat it scientifically and learn from it, I will not forget to do so. Thanks Annick In reply to Dylan: Thanks for your reply Dylan, Between you and Annick I am confident I got my moneys worth and will probably donate $10 instead of 5. What you experienced with your mother is something I feel like I have experienced with my father in the past (giving his negativity back to him) and at times I have seen him defeated for it. This last conversation on the phone I felt that he had lost the meat of his hold on me and I did not let him bully me around. But in the long run I do not want a relationship of me becoming his "abuser" not out of sympathy for him but because I don't want to be that kind of person. I need to work on an assertive stance. I am a little enthused after our confrontation I have never been so hard lined with him. Thanks Dylan

I am kinda bummed that I am not getting any love on this post so i will donate an extra $5 for the month (beyond my usual $20) if I get at least one decent reply, I know $5 is nothing compared to the value in some of the folks heres opinions but It is something. Thanks all.

I have mostly made my mind up about how I am going to handle this but I would like some feedback (do you see something I am missing?) if any are willing to read my novel of a post, thanks ahead of time.Back in August i made it clear that I had probems with my parents both to them and surrounding family. My father did not just spank, he whipped and hit (twice I can recall) I think the last time I was 15 and yelled and was emotionally abusive and would humiliate. Growing up I "toughed" it out and planned my great escape at 18, then all of the sudden when I started to become more independent he became more reasonable and nice... imagine that. I spent the next 9 years being angry about how I had been treated growing up but having "forgiven" him and having even talked about it in unproductive ways. And my mothers main guilt is in allowing that and occaissionaly being the instigator or threatening with his violence. Now, I do not intend to make any excuses for them but in the past couple months I have become less enraged and traumatized by things (or suppressed those feelings) and am trying to assess everything before I address them. There are some facets of my parents that I genuinely did admire growing up compared to the families and culture I saw around me. I had no doubt that my parents loved each other and at least lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children. And when myself and my brothers were getting older my mother did come to us concerned about how we felt with the way we were raised. Having been blatantly conditioned to sympathize with her, I assured her that she had been great but basically dad was a hardass and a dick, a thing we did not hide but we also displayed some kind of unhealthy stock-holmian "respect". I have put off addressing them because I knew that the way I felt I would be out to hurt them and I was pretty sure the outcome would be dissassociation. I would like to keep the relationship, IF, I can be confident that it is healthy and mutually beneficial AND IF I can maintain the relationship and not limit my horizons emotionally and spiritually (philosophically speaking). In Christmas (I was not present, I made it clear I would not participate this year) my Father and older brother had a falling out. He called to tell me that he was drafting papers to insure he could not inherit anything and he wanted to know if I wanted to be added to the list. I held no quarter with him and the conversation ended with him cutting me off and saying "you're done!". I feel like I don't want to expose myself vulnerably to them, I want to yell and judge and go over a list of crimes... a part of me wants to hurt them and that feels sadistic, and I don't want to feed my sadism or would it be being evil to evil? would I be being the champion of a damaged child? My Father has a history of threatening more than he is willing to follow through with, and it was relayed to me that they were pretty broken up at a family gathering. My Mother called me yesterday "Just to say I love you" and let me know that she would call from time to time. She asked me if I loved her and the truth is that my feelings were conflicted,what I told her was that while dealing with them I wanted to be very sure not to sympathise with them, and asked if she understood, she said she did. I plan on writing them a letter and letting them know my position and feelings. If they want to meet after that i am open to it.a couple questions I have is; should I let them know what behaviors/responses of theirs would satisfy me? or would I be poisoning the well to my being manipulated? Should I let them know about my method (personal history, self observation, psychology, philosophy) in dealing with this or is that some kind of "emotional state" deferral ("I'd rather not do it this way but the text book says I can't empathize with you"); or, is it what I make it? If I see them face to face should I let them see my pain or anger? or let nature dictate all of this. I have an impule to empathise with them but right now I am supressing it until I see remose/virtue in their position and actions. Thanks in advance to any who add their two cents in any capacity.

It seems like this topic has reached some closure but I'd like to share my recent experience where a 16 year old pursued me (I am 29) and what I learned from that experience.In the end I completely understood the inappropriateness of us entertaining a relationship, I was in far too much of a position of power over her. She took my will toward (not necessarily success at) integrity and virtue as a safety net and in some ways a challenge. Boundaries and concerns I shared made no difference, I tried too hard to have my cake and eat it to. The extra effort in my life it took to juggle a morally risky situation was reason enough of why it should have failed a cost benefit analysis. I feel safe in saying it was immoral in the sense that It was obviously a non-optimal choice for myself and whats worse I could have hurt another person or myself. The greatest lesson I feel I got from the situation was a new perspective on the laws in society. It has often perplexpled me how Stefan would refer to laws on the books as though they bore some kind of moral information in any way.but I think I get it now...Society has its foundations in philosophy, when standards of virtue are raised, its due to the toil and labor of philosophers. Being the professional sophists that they are, politicians see the virtue in what philsophers describe and claim it as there own with one fundamental exception, the ability to force compliance. In this way some of the laws we have can be tapped for hints of virtue as long as one can see past the sophistication.In this circumstance society has declared that 29 year old men should not have sex with 16 year old girls and I think that their recommendation is sound even if their method is evil. Its not a matter of absolute proof imo its one of what is the safe bet, or what is the practical choice sans proof. I think its safe to say that if a 16 year old girl sleeps with a 30 year old man the odds are more likley that the net result in the long run will be poor for one or both.Just to reiterate, the big, big thing to focus on here was the disparity of power, I think that is a great quick test for whether a romantic relationship is healthy or not.

I came across this article and thought it was a very concise yet thorough case on the optimal treatment of babies and young adults and how to understand the average adult who was likley in some way neglected. Also it seems like the author focuses on morality which may make her an interesting source to look into. I hope this is not a repost apologies ahead of time if it is. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201312/ten-things-everyone-should-know-about-babies

Wow, really sorry to hear that, it sounds like a terrible situation. Just my honest reaction here; when you mentioned that your father was willing to go to counseling with you that sounds like a no brainer to me. Also if you did want to bring something up that sounds like the a good environment to do it in safely. Even if he does not apologize the process may clear some things up and at least teach the two of you how to be around each other until you can safely leave. I am not saying you want to learn how to maintain or operate in a dysfunctional relationship but if you choose to stay there it might make things easier to at least try. do you think counseling could make things worse?

Here is one argument for you BigSecksi, Children are learning more in the beginning stages of life than they will ever learn in terms of quantity per unit of time, their central nervous system is alight with taking in the objective world without any capacity for them to (using words) assign false values to what they experience. They are perfect little scientists recording only objective facts and interacting with the world based on those facts. children are operating on an emotional level few adults can reach (and possibly none at all). Everything they experience is dealt with and processed in real time, good or bad it is truly lived. when you intentionally induce pain to condition a value into a child, they rightly assign that there primary caregiver and source of continued existence is a threat. They realize their environment is dangerous and instead of spending their time taking in the world and developing, they spend their time trying to navigate around this threat. The more often that is the method of interaction, the more time spent navigating the threat. In general the desired outcome I believe we can both agree on is a person that is responsible and can be reasoned with. When you intentionally induce pain in order to condition a value into a child you damage the mechanism they would use to reach the desired outcome. If you can get through a couple years (2 to 3) without hitting your child then they are likely to be able to be talked to and reasoned with, if enough time has been spent with the child in a safe environment where at least one parent has been very interested in the child and taught them. spanking can only harm, that is what it is intended to do. Often in light of a perceived worse outcome of course, but it is harm none the less.

I spoke with the father last night, we have always had a good relationship and enjoyed each others company. He was pretty receptive to the conversation. For hours we respectfully went over both sides of the case. It was not concluded with a change in position from either party, and he agreed to have the conversation any time. I really appreciate all the participation so far. I should have mentioned this in the OP, I would like it if this thread were kept as universal as possible so that it could be of use to most people. So far it seems like it has been great in that regard. I know I will have to fill in the gaps in my unique situation and will start another thread for that if I feel like I cannot make the difference. Does anyone have a rebuttal to the cases where countries ban spanking and crime goes up? the argument that I make is that the absence of spanking is not necessarily the presence of good parenting. Especially if the state (or the tendrils of it within ones personal community) is your primary source of moral knowledge and examples. so far it seems like empirical data is where the case is the weakest...(I wonder how much it would cost to pay a researcher to gather all the studies done on the subject?) so far this seems like a promising resource: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/search?fulltext=spanking&submit=yes&x=0&y=0 I can see a lot of what is skewing the argument in "intellectual" circles is whether or how to get the law involved... not objectively why or how. And the state is automatically assumed as the go to "solution".

Hello all, I am gearing up to approach some family of mine that employs corporal punishment. So I am first trying to put together the very best case I can against spanking. I also told a friend of this impending situation who has not been convinced by me that spanking is wrong. Thankfully our conversation did enlighten me as to how poor I was at making the case and that there is far more research advocating corporal punishment than I expected. i have searched the forums and cannot find a thread providing the best case against spanking. So please if you can provide me with your best case against spanking and any pro or con research pertaining to it. i consider this one of the most important things I have ever done and want to fully plan and prepare. Thank you so very much, and If I get a decent amount and quality of FDR participation in the thread I'll donate extra for the month.

I usually donate $20 a month, but I gave an extra $10 this month due to the help and attention I recieved here, Thanks FDR. Especially Morse Code Stutters, who spent some time PM'ing me.

Nice to meet you Steve, I certainly do not think you are alone at all, though my time here has been short it has been invaluable. I remember what i built up the FDR forums to be in my mind and I am still seeing how much it matches up. I followed Stefan's work for more than a year all the while seeing the forums as an Ivory city on a sun draped hill in the distance. I thought of it as a place that literally the best people inhabited. Not only the smartest, but the healthiest (in form and action), and the only place where the all too overlooked emotional competency were acknowledge and regarded as a facet of self to develop along with the other two aspects. again, you are so, so, not alone. i can't speak for anyone else but I know what it is to feel like you are the only sane person. That either everyone else got a secret handbook and is playing along to it, or that you really are smarter in some fundamental way than those around you. And to speak up too loudly would only lead to the attempt of stamping you out like wildfire. and I have to tell you it is refreshing to feel like you are occasionally in the company of people who are smarter, wiser and more virtuous than you are, it is relief from an anxiety that personally I have never known. ok, thats enough ranting. I am really glad you made it here and I hope its everything you want/need it to be.