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The proof is in the phrase as above so below If we find hierarchy in our material world from the top down there is one in the ethereal. As we suspect, there is a lot more in the universe than what our limited senses cans see and feel.

Love is not sex and sex is not love Love is a feeling expressed toward the outside without any need for reward. It is feeled in the same way, love comes to us without any need for reward from the giver. When there is a need for retroaction, it is not love.

Even with rational explanations skeptics will find arguments to argue, its in their nature to do so. I'm with you saying it is natural, call it god or a force its still greater than us.

Lets go back in time and look at the way the artificial economy started. We learned by archeology and antic historians, man started to multiply when he arrived in rich environments, where soil and climatic conditions made nature provide lots of food. Three main regions , Nil, Mesopotamia and Indus valleys saw great civilizations emerge. State cities raised and they grew in power by war and slavery of conquered cities. When you read about what was harvested as valuables from the conquered nations, men where kept on place to exploit the land for exportation, woman and children where brought home to be used as slaves and cattle also brought in the homeland for food. Men where used until death from harsh conditions, forced to work hard with insufficient nourishment and bad housing conditions. Profit was the only goal. The use of money started at that time and was used by the upper class for their transactions between them of slaves and the resources they produced. It was expanded with time to a majority but the elite always kept control on the monetary system, as we know is still rigged.

Karmic labyrinth This enmeshment is an important aspect of karma it relates to imprisonment of will in conditions preventing or rendering changes difficult and sometimes impossible to perform. It has to do with a particular education or conditioning the individual have received during his prime childhood, that is hidden in the subconscious mind out of reach for the conscious one. For oriental philosophy life does not start and finish, as we occidentals believe, at birth and death. It accounts the before and after in a global figure of existence consisting of many lives. The particular culture you are born in is the mesh your entangled in and it is your own creation. Cultural karma is as significative than biological karma, it can make you see the cup half empty or half full and the way you see things is how to get out of bad karma or into it. It is why good and bad are seen as friends while better and worst are enemies. In the extremes misery opposes to richness in a perpetual battle where none will ever win. If you have to go trough Betterland keep your head looking down to avoid getting dazzled it will serve you in Worstland to clearly see where you walk. The advice is to stay in Centerland and be contented.

Hye Thanks to all for your contributions to the subject. The examples I used where meant to explain the multi level action of karma which is, as Love prevails mentions, a question of cause bringing consequence as action bears reaction. Karma yoga The heredity is not only the genetic transmission its also the energy level coming with certain habits, the first seven years of life of a child impressed by the middle he lives in. As we know, the child is not completely formed and during the intra uterine period he is biologically conditioned by the mothers blood and many foetal disorders are induced there. Here we can talk of a cultural karma and it seems it is also, beside metabolism, very significative in the impression of the subconscious mind In the oriental philosophy a child is born from the parents but is not necessarily related to them. They are the pieces of the puzzle that suits his personal Karma. The life of an individual, his actions during the time he lived, produces a signature in his energetic body and after death it will seek for his next incarnation the good combination, the couple that will suit his karma. On a material and biological level we can talk of bio accumulation as it reflects this energetic imprint. All of this process is about energetic field combining by attraction, there is no angels or fairy tale creatures acting as helpers or facilitators. All of the explanations using visible images are meant to give an approximation of the process for those unable of abstraction. Knowing we are the result of our good and bad previous actions is a first step to adapt and prevent any other buildup of negative karma. That is to practice karma yoga. Here also there is much misunderstanding, the good and the bad is not only in the field of humanity it includes life as a global entity and relates to equilibrium between negative and positive energy manifestations, attraction and repulsion.

It seems to me you misunderstand the original karma concept with the recuperation made by religions to make it understandable to the mass. The original explanation is closer to physics, this is why I included biological levels that are not separated from the aggression in the social field, seen as a body, because of the inclusive point of view of oriental philosophy. In that way of seeing microcosm and macrocosm are only two levels of a same reality.

Karma Lets look at it in a different manner I am drinking alcohol exaggeratedly and find myself sick the next day. This is a karmic consequence the next day for my actions the day before. My grand parents and parents where heavy drinkers and I have a weak liver, or they where smokers and I have weak lungs. The karmic consequence is in the form of heredity inherited from my ancestors. I live in a country that abused other countries for centuries and I now live in fear of terrorist attacks coming from those countries. It is a social karma. On one side we accept the fact some of our actions can bear some consequences but on the other side we decide it is not the case on a wider range. Why ?

It is not a claim of detaining the truth, being close to nature is not being far from it, nature is nature and being close to it means being close to fundamentals not superfluities, Be your own master by self providing what you need , not what some pretend you need, basic needs are close to nature and can be provided by nature when you decide to follow her ways. The argument its to expensive is coming from your desires of how and what it should be instead of searching to find a way to adapt to what is available .

Gold and silver a good investment ? Many informed about the financial system are looking to buy gold and silver knowing the coming collapse of existing currencies. This is because they don't know basic economy, and for that reason will fall in the trap of illusion one more time. The problem is not that the money system is based on an accepted collateral by bankers or banksters like some call them, the problem is that some intermediator is positioned in the exchange market. One day or another those courtiers will abuse the system. Where fraud is possible there will be fraud. When talking of basic economy I'm referring to natural economy, the one used by nature, the basic and true value life needs to sustain itself. Unless we go back to the natural system all will go wrong again, its only a question of time. Buy a land where there is good water and air, improve the soil and grow your food in a direct economy closed system where you never take more than what can be produced with what is available locally. Your bank account will be your soil fertility. Learn about community, how to deal and share with others, those you help today will help you tomorrow. While close to nature the knowledge and skills you will acquire will be you insurance contract that will help you if ever you have to move to another location. Self sufficiency is more valuable than money.

I feel human slavery is not fully understood when I see the wage question adressed as the symptom of the sickness. I think it is more a question of free choice, the lack of alternatives in those countries we should look at, not if they are paid or not. In a man made desert there is no other choice than what is available and when it is controled by some corporation you are not free to choose you become a slave who has to give them what they want in exchange. Those indigenous populations lived in a symbiotic relation with nature, had what they needed for a living before the colonizators came in with their false religious pretensions hiding economic goals. The situation is that occidental colonization transformed those countries, giving to a puppet regime the control over the resources.

Beliefs are reflections I believe (oups I should’nt use that word) I think....hum is the I assumption a belief ? Bouddha brought the idea all in the universe is illusion so where does belief starts, or to what extent is it acceptable to believe ? Since we are in this plane of existence and believing it’s real, is there a way to live in a balanced manner ? I think you brought something with the following quotation : “Don’t believe yourself, and don’t believe anyone else. If you don’t believe, what is not true will dissolve in front of your eyes. Only what is true will remain, because what is true doesn’t need anyone to believe it” –don Miguel Ruiz My own interpretation is: Lie pretends, truth is In my understanding of Taoism its all about the idea truth is, without any need to be proven or advocated. The non action principle is letting the lies, the untrue, dissolve by the means of their own illusive natures. A popular proverb states : who consents easily rarely keeps his word. In the context of beliefs, easy consent is the attractive and rapid promises they bear. The Tibetan proverb ads : In front of two roads choose to most difficult. As we see in nature, forms, gestures and scents attracts living creatures to fulfill their mutual needs. For the animal the fruit on the tree is food, for the tree the animal is an accessory to fertilize and disseminate his seeds. In a context of balance all is fine, the animal leaves manure for nature in exchange for the fruits she gives. Whenever or wherever he feels the urge, he makes his offering. Then man found a way to avoid paying back his debts. The fox of the fable uses flattery when the prey is seeking for recognition. Beneath the lies he uses nothing left to compensate for what he takes. When there is no more preys somewhere he goes elsewhere and uses the same method. When he leaves there is usually garbage and depleted soil consumed to the core as payment, he is a disrespectful creature. Some beliefs where created to justify this unbalanced exploitation. Animals have no souls, blackman, redmen, yellow man and women where also deprived from it. It comforts those who abuse to believe they don’t with the help of mental shutters. I’m supporting the theory of biological inherited tendency to seek facility, recuperated by some clans that made it a science taught to their followers to submit humanity and many other animal species. It’s a double trap as it catches the prey and at the same time, insidiously, the predator. It becomes clear the predators have developed dependancies from the abundance their ways brought, cursing them for the unfair and selfish advantage over life they gained. The illusion they became is consuming them. To avoid falling in the net of the Man fox. Firstly, stop seeking outside recognition, be contented by what you are and what you have. Secondly, look within and clean all conditioning that are superfluous to recognize your fundamental needs. Thirdly, get rid of all the superfluities. Toxic beliefs are linked to superfluities.

What about Who uses the sword will perish by the sword No use of doing anything his action is the penalty. I think the best action is self directed, dont give any credit to what he does by refusing to eat or benefit from abused animals. Then the fire of hate and non respect will extinguish. This is said by seeing the failure of law enforcement that seems to be an endless journey in a wrong direction.

I had the same thought about the inflated brain, but my conclusion can be explained by the metaphor of a child driving a race car knowing only to press on the accelerator, it ends up with an accident where he dies. Humanity has an incurable self inflicted injury and big brain will die because of the speed and extended territory he invested. He is the empire so big the frontiers so wide he comes to a point where they are impossible to defend. The over intellectualized human has invested foreign countries without being fit to live in. To actually live there he has to use costly and unsustainable artifices, forcing his presence by denying the right of other living creatures. The frontiers will eventually be to expensive and complex to sustain, that is when he will fail. Big brain is not an evolutionary accident, it’s the consequence for humankind of developing and adopting techniques such as hunting gears, animal raising and agriculture. Accessibility of high protein food makes the brain bigger with time. The failure of the modern over developed societies was predicted thousands of years ago by oriental philosophies, Hinduist and Taoist, as a cyclic mechanism where this over expansion of outside and external materiality is one of the phases it goes through. The prediction is the sixth line of the K’ouen hexagram in the I Ching, the book of changes, Dragons battling in the field, their blood is black and yellow. This is a turning point where the unconscious man tries to resist to the change, goes on with his ruling attitude when it would be time to be the servant. He is forcing his artificial world despite the growing sickness of the natural one . In this battle the two fighters will be wounded. The cycle goes on and the nature comes back in force and all those who invested in the artifice are failing. The king grants the noble man with a chariot while the vulgar sees his house dismantled. The noble man is the one who long ago avoided to over invest himself in materiality and retreated from the places where it flourished. He became in time and at the right place a servant instead of the ruler. This links to your subject of knowledge a curse, it goes on in many aspects of our existence, not only intellectually but also organically. The let go method is the Taoist non action, where all gets in place and in time when free to move.

Can magic and symbolism cohabit with science ? When we talk about magic it is not illusionism of the type of pulling a rabbit out of a hat or David Copperfield and similar showman. Its about a field of phenomena that cannot be explained with rational and descriptive way’s. In the ancient knowledge symbolism is presented as being superior to writing, it covers a wider range and depth impossible to render with words and phrases. Modern science is very limited and can be seen as the imperfect and insufficient language method, a degenerate form of communication for depicting the world. It has many explanations and descriptions but cannot transmit the emotions. Some of you might have seen the TV show super humans (youtube), some of them are using what is explained as instinctual reflexes to accomplish apparently impossible things. When asked how they do it, they relate to a subconscious power where imagination is used and where mental discrimination is absent. (See ultimate archer and samurai warrior ) Many of such examples can be found in old literature and It is mostly present in primitive and indigenous cultures as they are less polluted by the mental conditioning that brings the side effect of disconnecting from the magic and the power it offers. The ultimate archer guy said he discovered he was able to hit any target with his arrow when he was around twelve. He was first challenged to hit a target and said he was sure to get it and did so. The, he was sure he would hit the target, is the magic part science cannot explain, and the fact he was a kid gives an even more importance to the non discriminating mind children and primitive still have for being less educated by modern science. The non thinking act is faster and more effective than the process of mental reflection with all the delays it implicates. http://youtu.be/qsSa9PKv79U Oriental cultures are ahead in this non action way of dealing with the flow of events man is challenged to master during his life.

Your analyze is good. I'm pointing the fact it is generalized in our societies The reason why I used the phrase as large the face as large the back is to underline the fact there is another way of seeing things and events. Who say’s who is, is another declination of this different point of view. The more you accuse of something the more you are guilty of it. Jesus is said to be the one who came with the parable of the straw and the log, we can see he only adapted the as large the face as large the back phrase in another arrangement. The original sentence much older and using more general terms. The seducer is described as being very attractive and persuasive, alike a very nice package is usually used to divert the fact the content is not so useful.

English is not my language and I might tend to use french grammar to build my phrases. I think readers are intelligent enough to understand my point. More you pretend less you are. Is another declination of the phrase as large the face as large the back. This pretending aspect many of us witnessed in our lives in certain occasions where relatives had to insist on their self importance because they felt their qualities weren’t recognized. When you effectively are or have others will recognize it without you having to prove it. Our modern culture seems to be based on pretension, and that would be the main sign of its opposite reality, more it pretends being right more it is wrong.

Skeptics are naive ? Affirmative scepticism is the opposite of unconscious naiveness. The oriental phrase as large the face as large the back, is a general rule of how an extreme or evident position has a proportional and reversed one that is also part of the personality. In the case of an individual, usually member of a declared organization promoting skepticism we usually see that this person is a blind believer of a main stream belief system, usually called science. We can see, with open minds, that what some pretends being science is the use of a technology out of control by some humans whose brains and knowledge are to big for them to control. Like offering a real gun to a kid and telling him to go out and play. Recent catastrophe are clearly showing the image of the mad scientist unaware of the effects or in a hypnotic trance pushing him to go ahead with his crazy projects even if all is collapsing around. This belief system based on spectacular realizations, most of the time with short term and localized positive effects, giving the impression to those naive individuals their religion is the true one so they build temples called schools and universities to educate other naive persons. The usual answer to the actual and evident failure of their projects is that they will eventually, in a close future, bring great benefits to humanity. We saw and see they, and their financiers, got and get their profits while saying, ad nauseam, that it will bring something to others in a near future. Like a donkey running after a carrot on a stick, the future is never attained and the donkey keeps on running. We have there all the ingredients of religions, paradise that will come if you obediently follow the recipe of life the so called science promotes. You work like a slave for years in an insane middle in an unhealthy job with the promise of a golden retreat with a huge pension. The mythic Eldorado, their religious magazines and films shows as some sort of Venus project where robots will take care of everything while you’ll enjoy a life of leisure filled of joys, including sexy young nurses to change your diapers. We see that, here and now, reality is far from being a paradise, cuts in pensions, cost of life raising, chronic illness increasing and so on. It seems obvious the most ardent skeptics are naive fanatics... what do you think ?

Are atheists basically closed to new concepts ? I think many are searching for logic answers instead of the fairy tales presented as credible by main stream media. One of those fantasies is modern science, the promises and pretensions it has and the reality of its incapability to bring any solutions to the sinking ship of modern civilization. I’m not saying religions in general are the answers to existential questions like death and afterlife, I think that most of them were interpretations trying to render a basic teaching available to the mass of people. With time it became a tool in the hands of dishonest clans searching profits on the back of naive populations. I’m trying to push the idea a very deep knowledge of life existed a long time ago, but the degree of abstraction of the science became out or reach for ordinary man. The relation of that science and how some wise men got to learn about it is in the history of many ancient civilizations as myths and legends. When I see modern science today, I see the same phenomena of degeneration of knowledge that occurred with the religions, the vulgarization of the principles so the ordinary man can learn about it. Many are no more than technocrats using the gadgets but unaware of the effects. The ancient science I’m referring to is not complicated and rather simple, and that is what makes it superior to modern science and its complexity. But that simplicity is not what makes it available, It becomes incomprehensible to a vast majority because of the loss of connection to nature. There is a capacity of abstraction inherent to that connection modern man living in artificial environment lost. I’ve named that capability fractal vision. Regarding death, the fractal, it can be acknowledged in the fraction present in our everyday life, sleeping. Basically the root of modern science is from this old and primitive science I’m talking about, it is derived from it and that derivation is what makes it wrong. It would be like getting something out of context and pointing it out as real when it is only a portion of it. Because its partial and concentrated on the spectacular aspects it deceits human about the true consequences of its performance. Without any available alternatives modern science and attached beliefs is the contemporary religion. This would be comparable to the religious beliefs showing how paradise is much better than hell emphasizing it to a point people will seek it frenetically in the restrained artificial middle they are confined in . Modern paradise is focused on material possessions and is controlled by oligarchic corporations, as the churches of the past controlled consumption by being in bed with governments. They acted as the cultural sector acts today, giving credit to the over consuming ways, the industry needs to maintain its position. Main stream artists are subsidized by the industry as long they help them selling their products. More it changes more it’s the same.

I heard a cancer specialist saying that the favorite treats for cancer cells are grease and sugar. Even if you think your diet and habits are healthy doesn’t mean they effectively are. Cancer is feeding on surplus and the rate of grease in lymphatic fluids are usually to high in the modern occidentalized man organism. The first first remedie should be fasting as the Russians did when the invading armies came in, they filled the wells and burned the crops. The reason fasting works is that cancer tumors are not attached to the veins, they feed on surplus in the lymphe.

I think the absence of answers about death and afterlife is lacking in our rational and Cartesian societies. It amplifies emotions related to loss in a way they don’t and can’t find any relief. Science does not have better answers than religious beliefs in that domain. Irrational beliefs can act as mental placebos to temper emotions where rational scientific solutions such as pills for depression have bad side effects. Psychologists and psychiatrists on the other side are very expensive, the solution often brings other problems. The negative aspect of the rational mind is that it becomes incapable of using those simple, easily available and effective methods. That type of mental attitude is reluctant to hypnosis and its individual form auto-hypnosis, the capacity to dissipate strong emotions with personalized mental placebos. I’m curious about the way you explain death to your children, knowing that telling them there is nothing after life is as odd and uncertain than saying there is something. One of the Taoist ways of seeing death is looking at the global figure of existence instead of the moment of death as a significative event. They say I did not felt the loss before I knew him or her, so I shouldn’t feel it since he or her is gone.

It seems atheism didn’t caugth up with religious rituals, the no ritual approach seems to leave an empty space. Science does not fill the gap with clear answers so many of us are in an in between unconfortable position. The question is who between science and religion are providing relief for those affected by death of their relatives ? Reason is in conflict with emotions

About waste and natural economy one of the major unsustainable habits of the urban man, the fact he doesn’t give back as other wild living creatures his loan from the earth at birth, neither pays interest on it during his lifetime. If he would give back at death his loan he wouldn’t burry or burn his body, he would give it back to the soil so that nature could use it trough the digestive creatures to reinvest in generating life. The interest on the loan man should pay during his lifetime are the dejections, from the digestion of the food and water he consumes, and like for his corpse they should go back to the soil, unpolluted from artificial contaminants. As you maybe know this sane retribution is not done, the deceased are often embalmed with toxic chemicals, buried to deep and in coffins or burned. The food is treated with synthetic concentrated chemicals and the urban treatment plants won’t filter heavy metals and pharmaceutic molecules. In that sense wastes have an existential corrolaire.

Tell me skeptic Is your critical point of view getting to be a closed door to objectivity ^ This question I use for myself when realizing the way I address my thoughts don’t bring any responses. It seems skeptics are systematically avoiding confrontations persons like me. As large the face ( declared skeptics) as large the back ( blind believers) The back blindness being the systematic search for the crack in the wall, using for the study the latest nuclear microscope. Doing so they are followers of the religion that promotes machines as the new gods.

Can you see the veil ? I’ve been seeking for many years and rediscovered the ancient wisdom in the form of archetypes that can be used in multiple levels to understand the process energy and matter goes trough in their inter actions in particular situations. They are the hexagrams of the I Ching, the book of transformation, latter used by Lao Tze to write his Tao Te Ching. They can be compared to seeds containing a potential that will unfold or not depending on the conditions they endure or profit from. This helped me develop fractal vision The false power What comes along with the false power cant be rewarding in its fundamental meaning. Our understanding of the basic meaning of wealth is since a long time perverted by our presence in the artificial man made land where values were changed to fit this new illusive world. Lie is seen as truth and truth as lie. What is acquired by dishonest means cannot be kept. What was built with the false power cannot last. A tree with short roots and overdeveloped branches will be uprooted when the wind grows. The ignorance is the veil that progressively covered human senses and conscience darkening them as he traveled deeper and deeper in his artificial world built to give him advantages on all other life forms. In the process of this exclusive process he lost the sense of community and inter dependancy with other life forms while his self importance and benefices grew bigger and bigger. As the ancient teachings say : Community in the clan, humiliation. The consequence of mistreating his own family that are other life forms is taking a toll on himself as they where the most fit to take care of life, and particularly of his own, and that they where replaced by the unfit, those of the clan only interested in selfish profit. Members of the clan, experts in words and attractive phrases as they are in fabricating a package so appealing the consumer is no more looking at the content and spending his wealth in exchange of empty boxes. This metaphor of boxes and content applies to all aspect of the artificial world, as even the actions become meaningless. We can clearly see that at the end of the cycle extreme consequences are occurring at the edges in the form of abuse and great injustice, these cannot be stopped and those in the peripherical regions will be and are seriously affected. As the ancient pinpointed the safe haven as being in the center where everything is calm and still, they also showed the direction and the way to rejoin Centerland. Can you see trough the veil ?