Adam_Min_Hayeshuv

SHORT ANSWER: When you pour fuel to the fires you get combustion. In the analogy above foreign intervention was the fuel provided in the form of weapons, training & funding. LONG ANSWER: The horrible current state of affairs couldn't have happened without westren intervention which piled huge stock of weapons in Libiya & Iraq and even trained & equipped Syrian radicals in Jordan which had naturally found their ways into the hands of extremist. Another important interventioning forces are the oil rich arab states (Sauidi Arabia & Kuwait) and Iran which have trained & funded certain factions especially in Syria.

To learn what french people think about their country prospects simply observe their actions: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-say-au-revoir-to-france-over-two-million-french-people-now-live-abroad-and-most-are-crossing-the-channel-and-heading-to-london-9788348.html

I rest my case.

I've listened to the initial 1:28 seconds of this video and found two grave errors so I stopped the video. 1. I've presented in the forum evidence that Hams uses its own population as human shields. Hence, the video producer loses all credibility by denying that. 2. He mentones correctly that several ceasefires crumbled but he fails to report that Israel had accepted and complied with all ceasefire and the sole blame for their failure was Hamas which in fact fired both on soldiers and jewish civilians during the ceasefire. CONCLUSION: It is very easy to find people critical of Israel. Jews were never the most popular kid in class. What anti-zionist lack most is reason, evidence and only too often understanding that jews are human beings and as such have rights to life, property and pursuit of happiness.

This is a communist/feminist style argument. It alleviates all blame from the palestinians (the "oppressed" class) and places all the blame on the jews (the "oppressing" class). The trough is of course the exact opposite. They did it to themselves. * The Palestinian had cooperated with the Nazis while knowing on the holocaust. * The palestians have launched a brutal terror attack on the newly forming Jewish settlement in Israel. * The palestinians have rejected all UN division programs whereas the jews accepted them. * The palestinains have declared war on the newly formed Jewish state with the purpose of ethnically cleansing it. * The palestinain had refused to accept funds in order to rehabilitate palestinian refugees in their host countries. In sharp contrast to every other refugee group in the world: jews from muslim countries, greeks from Turkey, turks from Greece, muslims from India & Hindi from Pakistan. * The palestianins have refused every peace proposal Israel had extended them. * The palestians run one of the most corrupt economis in the world. * The palestianin have launched a continuous terror campaign against the civil population in Israel. * The palestinains murder their own people, rape and abuse women, use civilians as human shields, enslave palestianns digging tunnels. and I can easily continue this list even longer.

Normen Finkelstein makes a living from bashing Israel while his patrons hope to use his jewish origins in order to make his hate speech sound less anti semitic. Here are the words of women which has everything to lose and nothing to gain from speaking the trouth It is written explicitly at that wiki that the weight of each reason is still distputed. From what I know from personal experiences I've heard from veterans in practice, each regional commander had its own policy. For example, in Haifa the mayor (which was a hard core socialist/communist) begged the arab residents to stay but they preferred to leave to lebenaon and wait there for a few months until the arab armies will accomplish their plans which also included NAZI-style physical extermination of jews. In order to put the Palestinian & jewish exodus in context I would like to note that every similar conflict involved population exchange: 1. The greek turkish conflict 2. The indian/Pakistani conflict. This is essentially a communist/feminist style remark. It alleviates the responsibility from the palestinians and puts all the blame on the jews/Israelis. Pat Condell is saying that it is the jews which are pro-peace, pro-democracy, pro-freedom. It is the jews that set the world record in protecting civil population in conflict zones. It is time for the arabs to face the facts, recognise their mistakes and better their ways and as a by product, better their lives (& the lives of their neighbours).

www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4734/palestinians-and-the-death-boats-scandal It seems that the ordinary palestinain men on the street prefers to risk their lives trying to get out rather than live under Hamas. Note the total disregard of the palestinian authorities to the lives, property ad well being of the people they claim to represent. pref

You are confusing things. An illegal settlement is almost always built on rightfully owned property The only problem is usually zoning laws. All lawful land claims are respected in Israel. You may wan to consult the relevant Wikipedia entry before launching false accusations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_land_and_property_laws There are a few arabs who had abandoned their property during the independence war and their property was seized. From the other hand there are many more jews of arab descent which were deported from their home countries after Israel had won the war of independence and their property was seized. I assume that as a part of a comprehensive peace treaty both groups will be compensated. By the way the main reason for the exodus of arab residents from Israel was to free the hands of the invading arab armies to indiscriminately kill jewish citizens & soldiers alike. Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Israeli_position http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Property_losses_and_compensation

The cold shower of truth may be unpleasant for the intellectually dishonest among us but it is the best medicine for their moral health. I'm glad that you point land acquisition as a legitimate source of gaining ownership because this is exactly what happened. Every piece of land settled by jews today was rightfully purchased from its former turkish or arab owner many times more than once as there were occasionally more than one claimnet tom the same piece of land.

A few point: 1. The land of Israel belongs to the jewish nation not to the jewish race. If you own a house you may select o inherit it only to your adopted son. 2. There is genetic evidence that link modern jews with ancient jews. It also seems that palestinian mostly descend from arab emigrants to ERETZ YISRAEL. To iterate, this genetic question has nothing to do with ownership question which is legal in nature. 3. If your property was stolen it is legitimate to apply force in order to return it. It is preferable to apply the minimally required amount of force which is exactly what the IDF does as evident from its amazingly low Civilian Casualty Ratio statistics despite the fact that Hamas use the local population as human shields.

Once you denounce your affiliation to the jewish nation you lose your share. No one in his right mind would do it any other way. Suppose your son will joint AL QAIDA, will you include him in your will? Most won't and this is the rule among the jewish people. In addition, in the next section at wikipedia you can read that jewish populations are related to each other but are significantly different than palestinian. Meaning that palestinain are mostly of non jewish origion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#The_Samaritans Furthermore, having an allodial title means that you can make & break the rules as you wish with respect to your property. This is what ownership is all about.

The one point I agree with you is that The jewish people serves as a scapegoat for the ultra rich and powerful. They only present themselves as jewish in order to use the jews as a human shield.

Obviously, I said yes.

PGP, I liked the fact that you called Sand's work seminal just because it suits your opinon. I consider it to be garbage. SUMMARY: His main thesis is that the jews had descend from the Khazars rather than the ancient hebrews and therefore they have no claim in the land of Israel. This assertion is wrong from several reasons: 1. There is genetic evidence that modern jews descend from the ancient hebrews and not from the khazars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jewsa 2. A conversion to judaism is also to the nation and involves adoption by a jewish family therefore converts also inherit the land of Israel, just as if you owned a house you could choose to inherit it also to your adopted children. I would like to stress that not even Sand denies that the ancient hebrews live in ERETZ YISRAEL and homesteaded the land. ELABORATION: I have a lot of criticism for hist work but first a little background on the person: Sand is a an historian specialising in the history of France. He is also an avid communist. In fact, he was expelled from the Israeli Communist Party because he criticised it for lacking a concrete revolutionary plan to establish a Communist regime in Israel. After the expulsion he joined MATZPEN the most radical communist organisation ever to be established in Israel. Obviously, MATZPEN was also anti-zionist. As you can see Sand is a real gem. From a professional point of view, Sand is ignorant of any knowledge in biology in general and genetics in particular. In fact, he can't even understand the articles on the genetic research into the roots of the modern jewish people nor does he has the expertise in the history of the jewish people at ancient time. This has not stopped him from writing a book on the topic. Did I mention that he is a gem? Sand likes to present himself as a myth beaker therefore he invents false narratives in his book only to "smash" them a few pages later. Prof. Bartal from the hebrew university had criticised him on that. Even more severely, the genetic evidence disproves his assertions as I pointed above. To this he responded by saying that he is an historian of ideas and not of facts. That is, following the long communist tradition, why ruin a "nice" theory simply because it can't be settled with the facts? Saind is a gem two point O.

There are independent evidence To Hamas use of Arab civilian population As human shieldsWhich I've already posted aboveBut anyway, here they are: http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

asdf Do you deny the long jewish presence in Israel? Some basic material on this may be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel Common property does have its disadvantages. excellent question, but it should be addressed to the anti semites not me. I was surprised to learn that there even exist anti semitism in Korea! http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/why-is-south-korea-so-anti-semitic/ Obviously, the jewish and Korean civilisations had no contact through history. Well, this wouldn't be a very nice thing to do. wouldn't it? :-) I said that the allodial title belongs to the jewish people The holder of the property may be anyone: a jew, an arab an alien from mars or any other sentient life form. Everyone are allowed to hold property in Israel, and rightfully so. There are even citizens of enemy states which own land in Israel.

How would I know? I can only guess and I guess not from the reasons I've provided above. If I'm wrong and there is evidence to the contrary, than they will be trailed and punished.

I do not have to assume the existance of AVRAHAM to establish the jewish claim to ERETZ YISRAEL. Israel was continuously homesteaded by the Israelite people from time immemorial until today. Obiously, Roman, byzantian, arab & turkish persecutions have limited their number of roaming space but at no point did the jewish people relinquished its claim on ERETZ YISRAEL. It is only the allodial title which is owned in communion every particular piece of land may be held by a specific set of people (which may or may not be jewish). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title This is similar to the concept of tenet in common http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Tenancy+in+Common The main differences are: 1. Tennancy should be replaced with allodial title 2. The set of owners is the whole jewish people. There is a real estate market in Israel. What I described above is my personal opinion and it doesn't reflect the legal state in Israel. I believe that you'll find the property law in Israel to be very similar in essence to the law in your own country. My accusation, is that underlying anti Semitic leanings cause some people to believe in half-troughts and/or outright lies much more easily than they would if those fallacies were ascribed to other poeple. They would be less likely to double check the allegations, blow them out of proportion and be harder to be persuaded to the contrary. I believe that the reason is that it provides a rationalization to their enmity they feel towards the jewish people. In a sense, this is my main point in the whole thread.

They are entitled to claim their case in an Israeli court of law. I find it suspicious that Israelis would use a palestinian men as human shield knowing fully well how little value life has in the eyes of Hamas. In fact, Hamas equips his armed forces with a manual educating them on how to maximise use civilians against Israel. http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/07/conclusive-proof-that-hamas-uses-palestinians-as-human-shields/ Therefore, if an Israeli soldier would use a Palestinian as a human shield than the Hamas warrior will simply kill both. As I've said before, every possible (& impossible) accusation against Israel was made and will be continued to be made. It will also be repeated in the western media. Therefore, the wary readers should be critical and ask themselves whether they tend to accept the information as it is a convenient rationalisation of their anti-semitic leanings or because substancial evidence was presented. Yet another evidence of Hamas brutality is given in the source below. http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/report-tens-of-terror-tunnel-diggers-executed-by-hamas/ It seems that Hamas executed dozens of tunnel diggers many of whom are children and some of them are forced laborers. They used harsh treatment of the diggers even before killing them. Again, it is extremely unlikely that Hamas would "miss" a chance to kill a jewish person simply because a few Palestinians are in the way.

Yes, but it is not their's to begin with. If your neighbour steals your TV set and "homesteads" it by connecting it to XBOX he doesn't become a legitimate owner. I don't really know and it doesn't really matter. Conversion in Judaism is both to the religion and to the nation. I believe (but I don't really know) that in Islam it is also like that. US covers about 4% of the Israeli government budget. This is not a significant contribution and it cost us a part of our indpendence. For example, in the last Gaza operation the US pushed for a ceasefire before Gaza strip was cleared of rockets. This makes the next round inevitable which in turn means that all the IDF soldiers casualties died in vain. Therefore, it is my personal opinion that it would be best for Israel to stop receiving foreign aid from US and have a relationships of equals with the US. BTW, under anarchy it would be harder to exert inter-national pressure on Israel as there would be no single contact point and the various PDAs can shift the responsibility for any action in a circle (i.e. PDA 1 on PDA2, PDS2 on PDA 3 & PDA 3 on PDA 1...)

Obviously, Israel is a state I can not defend it without using statist arguments. The reason I select to defend a state at this forum is that I suspect that the criticism launched towards Israel is nothing more than thinly disguised anti-semitism. During this conversation my concern was enhanced as I've corrected mistaken notions, introduced new facts, put forth moral and logical arguments but the debaters have failed to account for any of this. It is important for me to know whether anti-semitism or racism in general is supported or condemned in this forum.

Jews were never a popular nation, There is no shortage of people bashing Israel. What is lacking is evidence and reason in their criticism. Paul Craig Roberts just authored an article full of hate without establishing any of his claim this is just a loose set of wild accusitians. Similarly, if Eran Efrati really had a case he would have presented the evidence to the Israeli justice system if for no other reason than simply for the "fun" of legally terrorising Israeli soldiers. If Eran Efrati fails to sue IDF or the specific soldiers for crimes allegedly committed during the last operation in Gaza I'll have to assume that he just recycled anti-semitic propaganda. I would like to note that the Israeli legal system is well known in the world for its impartiality and high professional standards. You may want to research on Aharon Barak, the former president of the supreme court in Israel to understand what I'm talking about. Congrats! You've lost the debate. According to the rule "The first one to reference the Nazis lose". You don't succeed to rival me intellectually so you turn to emotion. Note that you haven't established that Israel practices anything but self defence. Furthermore, it is well known that Hamas attacks mainly civilians: jewish civilians using missiles and bombs and arabs by forcing them to serve as human shields. Your failure to account for this establishes that you critisicism is based on anti semitic leanings.

It indeed isn't. Therefore, in subsequent posts I've changed to defence as a way to establish the jewish claim on ERETZ YISRAEL. Defence is a legitimate land use, and therefore, fortifications and natural barriers used for defence should also be considered homesteaded. I further claim that AM YISRAEL (the nation of Israel) is the legitimate inheritor of this property when I don't have to assume that there is a genetical continuity between the jews of the 1st & 2nd temple and the jewish people today. But genetic studies on the Non Recombining Y chromes (NRY) found evidence to support genetic continuity. The difference between me & you is that you bring up anecdotes from unverified sources whereas I bring the complete and verified. You resemble communists which after learning that their doctrine failed try to find false & partial statements in other to continue pushing their failed ideology. 1. IDF has the lowest Civilian Casulty Rate in the world Hamas & other terror groups the highest. 2. IDF targets enemy combatants Hamas targets civilians. 3. IDF goes out of his way to evacuate the fighting zone from civilians Hamas uses civilians as human shield. 4. IDF investigates and punishes for ruthless treatment of innocent civlians Hamas praises & awards lunatics which massacred civilians. But why hear it for me? Here is a testimony by an arab person who was born and raised by a Hamas founder: DUDE, You are a one men show :-) If you argue only to disprove me and failing that you put words in my mouth why do you need a forum? My plan would bring peace and prosperity to all the residents of ERETZ YISRAEL. Israeli arabs vote with their feet preferring too stay in Israel rather than immigrate to an arab country whereas most jews from arab lands voted with their feet and immigrated to Israel. This attests more than anything on the freedom and prosperity offered by Israel to all residents which will be further enhanced under my plan.

It is usually considered cowerdly to hint that there are some yet unknown horrible facts without actually specifying any. On the contrary, it seems to me that almost every conceivable false allegation was already ascribed by the western media about Israel without adhering to strictest profeesional standards. http://www.westernjournalism.com/time-magazine-forced-retract-anti-israel-allegation/ Hamas is an organisation whose declared target is to destroy the state of Israel. To criticise Israel containment policy against him is to deny the jews from the right to defend themsleves. The palestinians have elected Hamas to represent them, therefore they have no one to blame save themsleves. In fact most of the local arab population support terror attack against innocent Israeli civilians http://freebeacon.com/national-security/poll-89-percent-of-palestinians-support-terror-attacks-on-israel/ It is a little known fact that Egypt which also borders the Gaza strip also lays a blockade on them but somehow all the criticism is directed towards Israel. I always give forward answers. The scenario I want to prevent is a group of residents which is loyal to a foreign entity will take advantage of the anarchy and in effect cut a portion of my land This can also happen if Texas will evolve into an anarchy but several texan inhabitants will prefer to unite with Mexico. The solution will be that any PDA which will not have extensive commercial and legal connects with a significant number of other PDAs in ERETZ YISRAEL will be wiped off. For example, the current Palestinian Athority if viewed as a PDA will not last long under anarchy if everything goes according to my plan.

So you are entitled to a a house from your parents just because they have elected to inherit it to you? Are we suppose to be socialists here & support a predatory inheritance tax? Said the person which makes a habit of presenting incorrect statements as facts: 1. You were wrong about international law. 2. You were wrong about Hamas Convent. 3. You were wrong about Jewish descent.