green_genes

I think I understand what you're saying. Especially that last part. It did take me a good while to stop thinking about her after the break up. There were, however, many months before she made contact again where she wasn't on my mind and I had deleted all her contact information, etc.. It was nice not to have those concerns in my life. I don't think it will take me nearly as long to move on once again.

It has been nice to get back to focusing on my own endeavors. I had a couple short relationships with girls right after my divorce was finalized. After the second one, and I wish I could remember the feeling that triggered it, I became a lot less interested in relationships and more interested in adventuring off on my own. A year and a half I took a shot in the dark and asked Sally out. It took me a while to get my head back on straight after we split. I had a GREAT summer in 2014 actually. I think it was October when she contacted me the first time and the more and more we talked the better/worse things got. That's probably like drugs or alcohol: you get hooked and get that high and then the crash, use more get the high and the crash, etc. It's as if my experience with Sally is an unstable sinusoidal function with increasing highs, increasing lows, but the average result is zero. I'd like to think I could eventually earn a relationship that has a net-positive trend. So there's no redemption? I shouldn't forgive her (or anyone else for that matter) no matter what they do to change their behavior? Are you pro-prison and anti-rehabilitation? When I've listened to podcasts where Stef talks to parents who have abused their children or children who have confronted their abusive parents, Stef makes it sound like there are ways to change one's abusive behavior and ask for forgiveness. Are the formerly abused never to give forgiveness under no circumstances whatsoever?

We broke up because she wanted something that I couldn't accept. I didn't expect her to change because of that, but if she did, I would consider restarting a relationship with her. Similarly, she wants to be friends and I don't want to be friends with liars and cheaters. If she changes, I would consider being friends with her again. I can see how that could be considered a manipulation but what's the difference between "manipulation" and "negotiation"? If lying and cheating is not preferable, shouldn't the liar and the cheater be the one to change? I have no authority over her. I didn't demand that she change. If she's happy with her life and doesn't want to change then she'll "win" and be happy doing her thing and I'll "win" by not having a liar/cheater in my life. That's a win:win, right?

Excellent points, J-William. Now that I've had a day or so to (A) catch up on my own life and (B) cool off and reflect on what has happened, I see things a bit clearer and I'm feeling more settled. She said a lot of things to me earlier this week but the facts are that she chose self-indulgence over honesty and fidelity and (claimed) long term goals of finding "true love". I treated her too softly because of my own weaknesses and undermined my ability to call her out on her wrong doings. One of the last things I told her was that her lying and cheating was absolutely wrong but that doesn't mean she can't make it right and redeem herself. And then I told her that if she can't admit this fault and has no desire to redeem herself, I don't want to be "friends" with someone like that. I put quotes around friends because, in her last message to me, she said that she hopes I still consider her a friend even if I don't talk to her. I'm not sure what kind of friends don't ever talk to each other. I've got a week long break from school in a couple weeks. That might be a good time to look at myself in the mirror and try and examine myself. I'd like to figure out why I let myself get wrapped up in these types of women. Why I don't see their manipulations.

J-William, Good points. She started seeing a therapist several weeks ago. I don't know if there are guys who are "healthy" or "good" out there for her that would also be down for letting her have sex outside a relationship. You seem to be saying that having three ways and being with a good guy are mutually exclusive. Why would that be so? That sort of argument/proof was why I started this topic. Thanks

MMX2010, Typically when I say 'good bye' to someone, they say 'good bye' back. In fact, she did respond about 40 minutes ago with a 'good bye' but in more words. Unless I'm unclear on your definitions, I don't wish to have sexual relations with more than one girl.... that's kind of the reason my relationship with Sally ended (emphasis on *kind of*). I'm starting to think I'm a prude. I'm generally pretty conservative with who I pick up so my success rate is pretty high but the sample size is pretty low so it's nothing to brag about. I think I will have to alter my criteria of who I go after though. It helps. EndTheUsurpation, I did respond to your post but it appears to be lost in moderator hell still. Is there a character limit I'm not aware of?

ETU, I missed your post from earlier! I've no real preference when it comes to hair color. Here in Maine, we do seem to have a surplus of brunettes (that's the dominant gene, yes?). If I snag two on the same line I'll message you for your shipping address and the darker haired of the two will be in the mail. Yes, I am divorced. The girls are with me Sunday afternoon through Friday afternoon during the school year and then custody changes to three days with me, four with her for the couple months of summer break. I met My Ex Wife (MEW) early 2003. I was 20 years old. Young, dumb, and full of cum. Some here might argue I haven't changed much. I never dated during high school but jumped into the game the summer after graduation. After my first "real" relationship ended I became disinterested in "dating" and wanted a wife. Stupid, I know. But I became a man on a mission. Admittedly, I moved too quickly, too carelessly, and we had our first daughter in the summer of 2004. She was our flower girl when we got married in the fall of '05. We both dropped college when MEW became pregnant. I literally panicked and sold my Camaro for a station wagon. We scraped by over the next several years on meager fast food management salaries. Early 2010 MEW was showing signs of restlessness and malcontent with life, the marriage, me, etc.. She grew up running track&field and wanted to get involved with that again. After struggling to find a highschool coaching position an old football coach of mine crossed paths with me and, as it turned out, he was looking for a *female* coach to complete his staff at a nearby high school. I got him in touch with MEW and she was hired pretty much the same day. This was late March/early April 2010. There was a young (a year below me) assistant coach on staff who quickly became MEW's new best friend. With MEW working her regular, full time job and part time coaching, we quickly had even less time to spend with each other, something she always expressed wanting more of. Her friendship with the assistant coach (let's call him Tim) started to take over even our precious time together. We made a point of getting Thursdays off together to watch 'Lost' on TV. The last few episodes we watched together, she was curled up on the opposite end of the couch texting Tim as he watched the same show across the county line at his place. June 17, 2010 she packs the girls up and drives them an hour and a half north to her parents' home while I'm working. I come home to a cold, dark house. She tells me she's leaving me, we have words, she leaves. I had to ask permission to visit my kids a few days later on Father's Day. I couldn't afford the rent on the house we were in so I had two weeks to pack shit and find a new home. She allegedly spent those two weeks at her parent's place with the girls but I later found out she spent a few days each week prepping Tim's place for her new nest. I wasn't surprised she was moving in with him -__- I spent the next eight months trying to make amends with MEW. We did several months of couples therapy. I believe it was March when I served her divorce papers. The divorce was finalized November 29, 2011. That's the basic experience, ETU.

MMX2010, I definitely agree with you now that I didn't have the capability to regulate myself regarding her. I feel I made my final message to her clear enough. It's been over an hour since she saw it and she hasn't responded. I read your introductory post from September and many of your contributions to the 'What constitutes romantic love?' thread. Mistresses... that game is way out of my league. No, I have not dated since the break up last April. Excuse? I wanted to focus on transitioning careers last summer and finishing my last year of college the following Fall/Spring. Although the more truthful reason for not pursuing another relationship lies closer to my low appraisal of my self worth.

It is fantastic, D. When I first started listening to Stef, I remember thinking, 'This is what I needed in my life right now!' That's still true today of course. Welcome aboard!

st434u, I sent her a message 25minutes ago on Facebook. Facebook indicates she's seen it but she hasn't responded -- which is probably a good thing. Juno has had me snowed in for two days. It'll be good to get out and back to living life tomorrow. Thanks for all the comments everybody.

I stated that SHE claimed the second threesome was better. I wasn't using that to excuse the act. No way. SHE tried to use the spontaneity as an excuse. I spoke up immediately to tell her that was no excuse.

What do I tell her? How should I end it? Crallask, you've got a couple of your facts twisted but I get what you mean. st434u, you're right. I was wrong

So... I just stop talking to Sally? No notice? No last good bye? No explanation why? That sounds like running away. It sounds cowardly. Edit: MagnumPI, there's a more direct response to your post in moderator limbo at the moment. I'm not sure why this post posted immediately and the other one didn't.

MagnumPI (love the name btw), You bring out an interesting point. I'm reminded of something I heard Stef say about not holding people responsible for their actions and treating them as if they were not capable human beings. True, I look at Sally and see her as a helpless woman, incapable of working out her own problems. "Threesome guy" (let's call him Doug) I know very very little about other than he seems to have pressured his wife into a three way and then, when his wife was still struggling to deal with the aftermath of their sexual experiment and didn't want Doug to interact with Sally at all, he attempted to go behind his wife's back to have one on one sex with Sally. I think that's sleazy thing to do, yes. The first time they got together Sally was a free agent, no strings attached. This second time she is in a relationship with Bob, who would be unhappy to find out that Sally had sex with another man (and woman). That too is a bad thing and I have told Sally that in our phone conversation. Sally and I had a good year together but she was less than a year out of a 15 year arranged marriage before we started dating and I could tell she didn't want to get into another long term relationship without experiencing more in life. I say she was robbed because at the age of 8 her parents joined the "12 Tribes of Israel" religious "community" (cult) where she was abused. She was not taught any skills that would help her outside of the community because they didn't want people to leave. At 18 she was married to another 18 year old (boy) and they proceeded to have 4 children together. More sheep to the slaughter. If memory serves, she didn't leave the community until around 2008. No driver's license, no high school diploma, no skills outside of cooking, cleaning, and sewing. When I doubt her ability to thrive out here it's because she hasn't demonstrated them to me and her life seems to be on a slow descent for the last two years I've known her. She is a hell of a hard worker (which I admire) but it seems that her inability to resolve issues allows them to pile up and it appears to be slowly burying her. Do I still want to "hit that"? On a level, yes. She is still attractive to my "lizard brain" but, I was strong enough to stand my ground and respect my standards when she and I broke up last spring and given that she has proven herself untrustworthy I'm even further away from picking up where we left off than before. I admit that if she straightened out I'd be interested in resuming the relationship that we had but I'm not going to hold my breathe. It is still important to me to see that she and her children survive out here. Why is that so wrong? If she doesn't take it seriously I'll have to move on. Either way, it looks like we've got another vote for "let her burn". Thanks for your input.

Alan Chapman, Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you stood up for yourself and ended things before they went too far. My responses to previous comments posted just recently. In one of them I expressed that I don't feel I was enabling her behavior in the conversation. I think you are correct with your thought that she initiated the conversation hoping to be coddled. She had already discussed this issue with two other people and it sounded like they did tell her what she wanted to hear. I don't know if she came to me for a man's opinion or if she was perhaps looking for someone to say out loud what her conscience was already telling her. I suppose, if she wants to talk again, I could ask her exactly that. I guess if she doesn't want to talk openly to me again, that'll be a strong indication of her intentions. Thanks again. That is the hard part, Carl. While I do have my own life to live, it's hardly a trouble to talk to her a few hours a week. If she responds to my advice with taking even a little action towards a solution, I will feel incentivized to keep helping. Your comment is appreciated, Carl.