green_genes

I think I understand what you're saying. Especially that last part. It did take me a good while to stop thinking about her after the break up. There were, however, many months before she made contact again where she wasn't on my mind and I had deleted all her contact information, etc.. It was nice not to have those concerns in my life. I don't think it will take me nearly as long to move on once again.

It has been nice to get back to focusing on my own endeavors. I had a couple short relationships with girls right after my divorce was finalized. After the second one, and I wish I could remember the feeling that triggered it, I became a lot less interested in relationships and more interested in adventuring off on my own. A year and a half I took a shot in the dark and asked Sally out. It took me a while to get my head back on straight after we split. I had a GREAT summer in 2014 actually. I think it was October when she contacted me the first time and the more and more we talked the better/worse things got. That's probably like drugs or alcohol: you get hooked and get that high and then the crash, use more get the high and the crash, etc. It's as if my experience with Sally is an unstable sinusoidal function with increasing highs, increasing lows, but the average result is zero. I'd like to think I could eventually earn a relationship that has a net-positive trend. So there's no redemption? I shouldn't forgive her (or anyone else for that matter) no matter what they do to change their behavior? Are you pro-prison and anti-rehabilitation? When I've listened to podcasts where Stef talks to parents who have abused their children or children who have confronted their abusive parents, Stef makes it sound like there are ways to change one's abusive behavior and ask for forgiveness. Are the formerly abused never to give forgiveness under no circumstances whatsoever?

We broke up because she wanted something that I couldn't accept. I didn't expect her to change because of that, but if she did, I would consider restarting a relationship with her. Similarly, she wants to be friends and I don't want to be friends with liars and cheaters. If she changes, I would consider being friends with her again. I can see how that could be considered a manipulation but what's the difference between "manipulation" and "negotiation"? If lying and cheating is not preferable, shouldn't the liar and the cheater be the one to change? I have no authority over her. I didn't demand that she change. If she's happy with her life and doesn't want to change then she'll "win" and be happy doing her thing and I'll "win" by not having a liar/cheater in my life. That's a win:win, right?

Excellent points, J-William. Now that I've had a day or so to (A) catch up on my own life and (B) cool off and reflect on what has happened, I see things a bit clearer and I'm feeling more settled. She said a lot of things to me earlier this week but the facts are that she chose self-indulgence over honesty and fidelity and (claimed) long term goals of finding "true love". I treated her too softly because of my own weaknesses and undermined my ability to call her out on her wrong doings. One of the last things I told her was that her lying and cheating was absolutely wrong but that doesn't mean she can't make it right and redeem herself. And then I told her that if she can't admit this fault and has no desire to redeem herself, I don't want to be "friends" with someone like that. I put quotes around friends because, in her last message to me, she said that she hopes I still consider her a friend even if I don't talk to her. I'm not sure what kind of friends don't ever talk to each other. I've got a week long break from school in a couple weeks. That might be a good time to look at myself in the mirror and try and examine myself. I'd like to figure out why I let myself get wrapped up in these types of women. Why I don't see their manipulations.

J-William, Good points. She started seeing a therapist several weeks ago. I don't know if there are guys who are "healthy" or "good" out there for her that would also be down for letting her have sex outside a relationship. You seem to be saying that having three ways and being with a good guy are mutually exclusive. Why would that be so? That sort of argument/proof was why I started this topic. Thanks

MMX2010, Typically when I say 'good bye' to someone, they say 'good bye' back. In fact, she did respond about 40 minutes ago with a 'good bye' but in more words. Unless I'm unclear on your definitions, I don't wish to have sexual relations with more than one girl.... that's kind of the reason my relationship with Sally ended (emphasis on *kind of*). I'm starting to think I'm a prude. I'm generally pretty conservative with who I pick up so my success rate is pretty high but the sample size is pretty low so it's nothing to brag about. I think I will have to alter my criteria of who I go after though. It helps. EndTheUsurpation, I did respond to your post but it appears to be lost in moderator hell still. Is there a character limit I'm not aware of?

ETU, I missed your post from earlier! I've no real preference when it comes to hair color. Here in Maine, we do seem to have a surplus of brunettes (that's the dominant gene, yes?). If I snag two on the same line I'll message you for your shipping address and the darker haired of the two will be in the mail. Yes, I am divorced. The girls are with me Sunday afternoon through Friday afternoon during the school year and then custody changes to three days with me, four with her for the couple months of summer break. I met My Ex Wife (MEW) early 2003. I was 20 years old. Young, dumb, and full of cum. Some here might argue I haven't changed much. I never dated during high school but jumped into the game the summer after graduation. After my first "real" relationship ended I became disinterested in "dating" and wanted a wife. Stupid, I know. But I became a man on a mission. Admittedly, I moved too quickly, too carelessly, and we had our first daughter in the summer of 2004. She was our flower girl when we got married in the fall of '05. We both dropped college when MEW became pregnant. I literally panicked and sold my Camaro for a station wagon. We scraped by over the next several years on meager fast food management salaries. Early 2010 MEW was showing signs of restlessness and malcontent with life, the marriage, me, etc.. She grew up running track&field and wanted to get involved with that again. After struggling to find a highschool coaching position an old football coach of mine crossed paths with me and, as it turned out, he was looking for a *female* coach to complete his staff at a nearby high school. I got him in touch with MEW and she was hired pretty much the same day. This was late March/early April 2010. There was a young (a year below me) assistant coach on staff who quickly became MEW's new best friend. With MEW working her regular, full time job and part time coaching, we quickly had even less time to spend with each other, something she always expressed wanting more of. Her friendship with the assistant coach (let's call him Tim) started to take over even our precious time together. We made a point of getting Thursdays off together to watch 'Lost' on TV. The last few episodes we watched together, she was curled up on the opposite end of the couch texting Tim as he watched the same show across the county line at his place. June 17, 2010 she packs the girls up and drives them an hour and a half north to her parents' home while I'm working. I come home to a cold, dark house. She tells me she's leaving me, we have words, she leaves. I had to ask permission to visit my kids a few days later on Father's Day. I couldn't afford the rent on the house we were in so I had two weeks to pack shit and find a new home. She allegedly spent those two weeks at her parent's place with the girls but I later found out she spent a few days each week prepping Tim's place for her new nest. I wasn't surprised she was moving in with him -__- I spent the next eight months trying to make amends with MEW. We did several months of couples therapy. I believe it was March when I served her divorce papers. The divorce was finalized November 29, 2011. That's the basic experience, ETU.

MMX2010, I definitely agree with you now that I didn't have the capability to regulate myself regarding her. I feel I made my final message to her clear enough. It's been over an hour since she saw it and she hasn't responded. I read your introductory post from September and many of your contributions to the 'What constitutes romantic love?' thread. Mistresses... that game is way out of my league. No, I have not dated since the break up last April. Excuse? I wanted to focus on transitioning careers last summer and finishing my last year of college the following Fall/Spring. Although the more truthful reason for not pursuing another relationship lies closer to my low appraisal of my self worth.

It is fantastic, D. When I first started listening to Stef, I remember thinking, 'This is what I needed in my life right now!' That's still true today of course. Welcome aboard!

st434u, I sent her a message 25minutes ago on Facebook. Facebook indicates she's seen it but she hasn't responded -- which is probably a good thing. Juno has had me snowed in for two days. It'll be good to get out and back to living life tomorrow. Thanks for all the comments everybody.

I stated that SHE claimed the second threesome was better. I wasn't using that to excuse the act. No way. SHE tried to use the spontaneity as an excuse. I spoke up immediately to tell her that was no excuse.

What do I tell her? How should I end it? Crallask, you've got a couple of your facts twisted but I get what you mean. st434u, you're right. I was wrong

So... I just stop talking to Sally? No notice? No last good bye? No explanation why? That sounds like running away. It sounds cowardly. Edit: MagnumPI, there's a more direct response to your post in moderator limbo at the moment. I'm not sure why this post posted immediately and the other one didn't.

MagnumPI (love the name btw), You bring out an interesting point. I'm reminded of something I heard Stef say about not holding people responsible for their actions and treating them as if they were not capable human beings. True, I look at Sally and see her as a helpless woman, incapable of working out her own problems. "Threesome guy" (let's call him Doug) I know very very little about other than he seems to have pressured his wife into a three way and then, when his wife was still struggling to deal with the aftermath of their sexual experiment and didn't want Doug to interact with Sally at all, he attempted to go behind his wife's back to have one on one sex with Sally. I think that's sleazy thing to do, yes. The first time they got together Sally was a free agent, no strings attached. This second time she is in a relationship with Bob, who would be unhappy to find out that Sally had sex with another man (and woman). That too is a bad thing and I have told Sally that in our phone conversation. Sally and I had a good year together but she was less than a year out of a 15 year arranged marriage before we started dating and I could tell she didn't want to get into another long term relationship without experiencing more in life. I say she was robbed because at the age of 8 her parents joined the "12 Tribes of Israel" religious "community" (cult) where she was abused. She was not taught any skills that would help her outside of the community because they didn't want people to leave. At 18 she was married to another 18 year old (boy) and they proceeded to have 4 children together. More sheep to the slaughter. If memory serves, she didn't leave the community until around 2008. No driver's license, no high school diploma, no skills outside of cooking, cleaning, and sewing. When I doubt her ability to thrive out here it's because she hasn't demonstrated them to me and her life seems to be on a slow descent for the last two years I've known her. She is a hell of a hard worker (which I admire) but it seems that her inability to resolve issues allows them to pile up and it appears to be slowly burying her. Do I still want to "hit that"? On a level, yes. She is still attractive to my "lizard brain" but, I was strong enough to stand my ground and respect my standards when she and I broke up last spring and given that she has proven herself untrustworthy I'm even further away from picking up where we left off than before. I admit that if she straightened out I'd be interested in resuming the relationship that we had but I'm not going to hold my breathe. It is still important to me to see that she and her children survive out here. Why is that so wrong? If she doesn't take it seriously I'll have to move on. Either way, it looks like we've got another vote for "let her burn". Thanks for your input.

Alan Chapman, Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you stood up for yourself and ended things before they went too far. My responses to previous comments posted just recently. In one of them I expressed that I don't feel I was enabling her behavior in the conversation. I think you are correct with your thought that she initiated the conversation hoping to be coddled. She had already discussed this issue with two other people and it sounded like they did tell her what she wanted to hear. I don't know if she came to me for a man's opinion or if she was perhaps looking for someone to say out loud what her conscience was already telling her. I suppose, if she wants to talk again, I could ask her exactly that. I guess if she doesn't want to talk openly to me again, that'll be a strong indication of her intentions. Thanks again. That is the hard part, Carl. While I do have my own life to live, it's hardly a trouble to talk to her a few hours a week. If she responds to my advice with taking even a little action towards a solution, I will feel incentivized to keep helping. Your comment is appreciated, Carl.

Greetings from Maine, USA! My name is Kyle Green (hence the screen name), I'm 31, a single father of two daughters, a final semester mechanical engineering student, and I began following FDR at the start of "warm season" 2014. I want to say that my first exposure to Stef was via a YouTube video by AmandaBillyRock (who I think is off doing something completely different these days). But it was over a year later I believe when I came across Stef's YouTube channel by way of (anti) feminism videos. What really hooked me was the Peaceful Parenting thing. I was spanked as a child, told 'I'll give you something to cry about!', had a bedroom above the kitchen which was where my parents preferred to have their shouting matches, and at about third grade age my mother sat my sister and I down and asked permission to leave our father. We of course said 'No.' And she stayed with him until I was a few months away from graduating high school. I am ashamed to say that I have spanked (abused) my daughters each about a handful of times in their relatively short lifetimes (ages 10 and 6). Not often but obviously once is once too many times. A year or so ago I recognized a growing trend of aggression coming from my oldest child and I knew I had to do something. It wasn't simply enough to have stopped the spankings years ago, the damage had already been done. I have since talked to both girls about the abuse, apologized, and explained and integrated the non-aggression principle into the family (leading by example, of course). It's a work in progress. I tend to type a lot. Is it too late for a "fair warning"? I'm very glad that this community exists and I cannot express how impressed I am by Stef's talents and drive to improve the human race (the right way). Thanks for reading, Kyle

MMX2010, So I am supposed to sit back and let her burn? I have straight up told her that she was wrong to breach his trust; that I was disappointed in her because of that; that just because it was unplanned and "spontaneous" was no excuse not to talk to him about it beforehand; that she's an adult and needs to be able to put off instant gratification/impulses; and should probably stop wasting both of their time and end their relationship. She also understands that I stand firm on my preference not to have any form of "open" relationship with her or anyone else. The reason I lost sleep over the whole conversation was because I know she did not feel like everything was great at its conclusion. She has her work friend/sex pal (the wife) and her sister both enabling her behavior from what I gathered so, as usual, it comes down to me to do the dirty work. Obviously, if she doesn't act on my advice or otherwise take initiative to squash her problems, I can't waste any more time on her. You can lead a horse to water... I've listened to "On Truth" and I'm 2/3 through "Real Time Relationships", which I've recommended she listen to as well. Perhaps I'm not fully comprehending everything that's being said in those texts? Am I missing something? I figured this community was about improving the world and helping people but so far all I've been told is that I'm a fool for trying to advise a person how to sort out their problems. But hey, I need to remember that I came to you all because I figured I needed advice from the pros and, since I'm 3 for 3 now on "just stop talking to her", I should take the advice I came for. I'm sorry if I'm coming off super defensive here, I'm just a bit taken aback. I don't want to discourage people from throwing their two cents in by being combative. I really do appreciate the few of you who have stepped forward to comment. I guess it's time for me to step back from Sally and learn that I don't have to fix everything. But that's kind of why I became an engineer in the first place... ouch, right in the identity...

I typed responses to both of your posts but I believe they're in moderator limbo. I realize I may have used a "curse word" in one of them but not the other. Is there a probationary period for newbies? Patience is a virtue, right? I guess I'll wait longer and see.

st434u, I'll take your word on the tribe v. civi thing. I'm sure you've put more effort into learning about that topic. I appreciate your direct, blunt advice. I knew I could expect some of that when I decided to post this. At the moment, however, I'm not ready to act on your advice to cut her off, cold turkey. If you are correct that not doing so means I don't value my own happiness, that is something else I'll have to consider soon. I do very much appreciate your comments and am open to persuasive arguments regarding how cutting ties with Sally would increase (or at least not degrade) my ability to trust and love myself. Crallask, After listening to the call in show pretty regularly since this early summer, I should have seen that question, 'How pretty is she?', coming from a mile away! Callers typically have their doubts and insecurities when asked to rate themselves and I am no exception. I know I'm not a 10. I think depending on the woman doing the judging I'd range between a 4 and a 7. I feel comfortable rating Sally a 6.5 to 7.0. All that being said, prior to dating her I had dated ladies who were younger and prettier. Even though I am a few years older now, I still have confidence in my ability to attract women prettier than Sally. I agree that having consensual sex with whoever is ... okay (for lack of a more precise word). I suppose I need to familiarize myself with the definitions of 'moral', 'ethics', and 'preferential' so I can use the terms with more confidence. I was throwing the question out there to see if I was missing something. As I stated, I'm not one to go for that sort of thing. On the one hand, I think, 'Don't knock it 'til you try it.' But then, on the other hand, I don't wish to do crystal meth just to confirm my suspicions about its cost:benefit ratio. The risk management of STDs and the added drama are two main reasons I justify running screaming from proposals for "open" style relationships. Additionally, I consider the sexual intimacy and reproductive process one of the few things (even perhaps the ONLY thing) that I save for "that special someone". I have pleasantly close relationships with friends of both sexes where we share adventures and enjoy conversations about external, global issues but also very personal issues. The one thing I don't share with anyone else is that physical/sexual intimacy (save for the occasional "bro hug" and fist bump of course). I feel that if I share sexual experiences with my friends, there wouldn't be much of anything (nothing that I can really think of at the moment) left to differentiate a friendship from a marriage (or equivalent "long term", "committed", "special", et cetera relationship). I'm feeling a little insecure in this reasoning and would appreciate arguments for and against it. That request is open to anyone reading it. I agree that the lying and cheating to her current boyfriend, Bob, is contemptible. She explained that this second act with the same couple went a lot more comfortably for everyone involved. The first time she did it was just a month or two before I met her. She explained that the husband had to convince the wife to go ahead with it. Personally, I think that was a selfish and shitty thing for him to do. Things were rough between the three of them (they were/are work friends) for a while and the husband was allegedly pushing Sally to have sex with him without his wife present. He's a sleeze-ball in my book and I'm frankly disgusted that she still considers him a friend, let alone would go back for more. What do I get out of talking with her, being her "emotional boyfriend"? In short: I want to help her. I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't still attracted to her and fond of the year that she and I spent together. Part of me would like that back. But there are, of course, red flags. To be perfectly honest, I think she'd be decent wife material if I could help her work through some of her issues. However, I (clearly?) have my own set of issues to work out before I can really help her. I can get into her childhood if it makes any difference. That, in itself, is a long story. She's honestly been robbed of so much in life and I would really like to see her thrive. She started back in therapy this fall and I hope she's in good hands. I appreciate your comments.

I was involved with a lady for nearly a year but we stopped dating last April (2014) because she wanted to "see other people" but didn't want to stop dating me. I told her that I did not want that kind of relationship and ended our relationship. I felt hurt because I believed I was inadequate as a boyfriend and never contacted her again. Before she and I started dating she had her first three-way with a married couple she worked with. She let me know this relatively early on in our relationship. She enjoyed the act but it did end up causing quite a bit of drama with the married couple. I told her that that is one of the few reasons I am not interested in partaking in that kind of activity. Later, in October of 2014, she contacted me and expressed some regret that our relationship ended and we've since started talking with increasing frequency. Since our break up she has moved in with her current boyfriend. She's shared with me that her current boyfriend (let's call him Bob) has expressed that the only way he'd be interested in a threesome is if it was her, him, and a female prostitute. This is unappealing to her. Further anecdotal evidence suggests to me that he would never be involved in a three way with a woman and another man and he would not be okay with her going off and having sex with other people. Just today she and I had a very long phone conversation where she told me that just last week she met up with the couple from before and had a rushed threesome with them. It wasn't planned on her part, "it was spontaneous", she says. I was very disappointed to hear this because, while it's fine to have consensual sex with whoever, she has violated the implicit terms of her relationship with Bob. She is hiding this fact from him, which implies to me that she knows she is in the wrong. I pointed these out to her immediately in the conversation. From our many conversations I know there are other issues with their relationship and she feels discouraged to stay in the relationship. I theorize that she met with the couple again as an act of self sabotage. The thing that I am hung up on is: what is the moral argument for and/or against "open relationships"? Like I said, I feel like if all parties involved are consenting, get it on, have sex, etc.. At the same time, and maybe it's simply how I was raised, I feel like having an intimate, special relationship with someone means saving the act of sex for that one other person. If sex is not worth saving for that one special person, then what is? I mean, what makes a relationship special if I'm allowed to do everything with everyone? I can see how monogamy is necessary for humans on a biological and primitive tribal level but has "modern civilization" dissolved that necessity? I tried to convince my ex (let's call her Sally) that if she cannot come to some mutual agreement with Bob that would allow her to fulfill her extra-sexual(?) desires (or if she's unwilling to bend to his preference for her not to have those desires) that she needs to leave him. I also tried to assure her that there is probably a guy out there who would be okay with her partaking in threeways (with or without him) but she wasn't very convinced and I made it clear that I'm still not ready or willing to accept that kind of relationship. It's currently 4am where I live so I guess you could say I'm losing sleep over this. I still care about her greatly and it's been incredibly disappointing today to hear about her lying and cheating. I'm going to try and sleep now but any comments/advice/help is greatly appreciated!