TheW_nderer

I think that was my point in posted this, it was that he resented that I helped him and was capable of helping him. I don't believe my motives were altruistic in that I hated the idea as a whole, I was definitely getting enjoyment out of seeing him become better and happier and I became happier when I saw that. I think it was more like, he took the help willingly, but wished he didn't have to acknowledge it's source, like when Philip asked Hank to give him a check without Hank's name on it so that his friends wouldn't know where the money truly came from. Like sometimes I would give him advice or we had arguments about things and he would reject them, but then later we would be around his friends and he would give them the advice I had just given him as if it were his idea. I never called him out on it, because I thought, "well, at least he got it after all" and he wouldn't often cite me as a source of those ideas. A lot of it had to do with nutrition, I was a very strict vegetarian and told him how I believed it was good for my health to try to avoid meat and processed foods, but he would say that I was ridiculous, but later he read a book about health and decided that meat was bad for him as well as processed foods, but said, "you never used good enough examples". I would say, a poor kind of person

I had a really long response to the but accidentally clicked back and lost it all as well as my desire retype it. To try and paraphrase the awesome content that I lost, I will say this: I have always made friends with people who were dysfunctional because I've never really "fit in" in the the sense that I grew up in an ultra-religious family, was homeschooled until college and had really unconventional ideas for most where I live. And because I'm not a person who is judgmental or looks down on people for the things they can't help, people have always looked to me for support or an ear to listen to their troubles, and before my b/f I never expected anyone would ever consider me as more than that and people of that I built this defense system wherein I wouldn't open myself up to people because they never seemed to care that that "ear" had a "mouth" and so with this relationship I decided to go all in and open myself up, even if the response from him was the same as with the people before. My attitude was changed, and I attributed that change to him even if it was an active choice on my part. When I was younger I never felt like my input was valuable because I just had to do whatever my parents/god told me to do until college so when I graduated and moved abroad it was my chance for a new start, to truly be myself and that came as me being really open in my relationship while still caring for my ex just like I had with my friends, but without that barrier of feeling like I couldn't just be myself, be happy, be proud, confident, etc. But I think his response is what everyone else's response would have been had I done the same thing to them while they were using my ears. Start talking about myself: Blank stare, blink, blink. I agree with you in some ways, but I think I have to disagree with self-hate. I think when I was younger I fought with the idea of being evil, but deep down I've always known that people love evil more than they love virtue and that people often resented me for being happy with myself and sometimes that lead to me trying to hide myself to not make other's feel uncomfortable. I think I could really relate to Hank Readen in Atlas Shrugged. Maybe that comparison clarifies things. How he worked and did things for everyone, but couldn't realize why the more he did the more everyone seemed to resent him. There's no way I could deny that I have problems, but I don't feel those problems are things that I want to defend, I want to be open, while also not excusing other people for not being virtuous. It has always seemed that those who are weaker deserve more sensitivity than those trying to do well and better those around them. I hate that the world sucks and that people are unhappy, and in doing something to fix it or help out, people throw it back in my face as my using people for gain. Not sure if this makes sense at all. I'm not trying to play the victim, but I'm so confused by the idea that I worked hard to help my friend(even if my boyfriend) out of a rough patch in his life and took pleasure in doing so and because that pleasure existed, I was using him.

Maybe I'll watch it tonight while I can't sleep! lol I'd be interested in looking into that quote more, I'm not exactly sure what they mean by that.

Lol. Good question. Strangely, when I met him he was maybe a 6 but with time I'd say maybe a 7. He is tall, but is average in attractiveness. He has matured with time and I think that might be why he's began to look better. Also adding some changes in style which he asked for advice on. I feel like my mind is over mind so much, because it seems like a bullet dodged, and as this week has gone by I've had fewer manic feelings of betrayal, but I still hate that he's with someone else. Not really that he's not with me...

Also, Do maybe you don't have direct input on his childhood and how that might effect his reasoning, does anyone else? **sorry my previous message is being checked by the mods

Thanks for the response! I know the thing I was getting for sure was a companion. Especially when I first met him. It was kind of just us in this brand new world overseas and I valued having someone beside me, even if he wasn't the most pleasant one. There were other people around and with time, I began making more and more friends and getting close to my coworkers, but I still valued being around him. We definitely had fun together, traveled together, partied together, but on a deeper sense there wasn't much there. He was a kind person, for sure and would do sweet things and says sweet things to me and I lost my virginity to him at some point which probably added to the attachment. I think a lot of it was probably a sexual companion. I am wondering about those virtues, I was definitely starting into my objectivism journey and throughout this renounced my religion and so I was still learning exactly what I needed in life and he seemed to fit, but there were always those signs about his personality, and I almost wonder if my patience and optimism clouded my judgement. I've always been friends with seeming outcasts even though I can make friends fairly easily. People have always told me that I don't act how I look in that I accept people for who they are even if they're not my "ideal" though I don't like to encourage people's poor behavior. The time when he wanted "time for himself" was a time when he got his second job and began to study Chinese. He said that he really wouldn't have time for me and didn't want to be half-assed in the relationship so we took a break for maybe a month or a month and a half and then came back together even stronger. During that time he said he realized that he couldn't stand not having me in his life. Yeah, that's kind of what is confusing to me because he seemed to illicit my help while also resenting it. I never pushed him to do things that he didn't ask for, and I would constantly tell him that I didn't want him to do anything that he didn't really want to and he seemed to understand that. I think I wanted him to change for himself and I would benefit from that in the long run. I know most men here have reservations towards what women say about men, but I could honestly say that this was the case. Yes I probably didn't love him initial for who he was, but I did begin to love him for who I thought be was becoming. I think the only times where he would know that I was dissatisfied with him was when we would discuss politics or philosophy. We never agreed, he was a statist, starting out and then slowly began to see my view on libertarianism, but we never completely agreed on that. And he would say that it wasn't important. What are you not surprised that he resented me for? Doing well for myself? I never bragged about it, I mostly wanted to share things that made me happy with him, and he would almost always twist it in a way that made me feel like he resented me. Would you have seen yourself as being a good friend if you didn't encourage your friends to be better versions of themselves? Was that crossing the line? That was something he had agreed was valuable and important to us. I know for sure she was more relaxed, he said that she doesn't really challenge him and it seems like they've developed a slightly dysfunctional attachment to each other. He described it as "codependent" and even from what I saw before he left, unstable, she threatened to leave him again if he tried to work on things with me, even after saying that she loved him as just a friend, sending him into hysterics. I feel like I wanted him to change but accepted at each stage along the way. Does that make sense? Love to me, especially romantic love is when two people see things in each other that they value so much that they value the other person above every one else and seeing the other person happy makes you happy and vice versa so seeing other people grow or become better should make you even happier because hopefully those things will make the person happier. I think there are many other factors that bind people who are in love together like sex, experiences, but the love is based on something you see in that person. Hopefully virtues. I felt like that was the dynamic of our relationship, but he could never realize describe what he thought love was. I think he was quite the opposite of my father in his actions, similar in his family situation. My dad never knew his father, but was a great dad though not always present because he was always so busy. My dad was a pastor, very religious. Never drank, cursed, rarely shouted but did spank. My dad was really into Ron Paul and I actually read Atlas Shrugged from his bookshelf

Hello all! I think some of you may recall, or can still probably see my post in forum entitled "What constitutes romantic love?" Inside there I expressed my relationship woes and subsequent end of my relationship with my long-term boyfriend. In that post I really appreciated the openness and advice given to me by you guys and it really helped me look back and reflect on my relationship. In the thread, I discussed how my "virtuous" relationship seemed to be falling(and did) for no reason at all, but I now realize that wasn't the case. From about a week ago until now, I have been able to deeply reflect upon what my relationship was based on and have come to some major issues/red-flags that I overlooked, or compromised on. After waking up from even more shitty sleep since this whole thing has started around Xmas, I looked up some FDR podcasts about relationships and finally settled on one podcast in which Molyneux essentially rips a caller for choosing to be in a relationship with someone who was unfit to be loved by them. In the podcast he asks the caller to name the virtues that the person had upon meeting them the caused him to choose to be in a relationship with that person, and the person, like myself, came up empty-handed. He asked the caller to name things about the person(not what the person did for them, but who they are) which were virtues to which that person was responding, and he couldn't come up with much and upon my reflection I couldn't either. My ex was/is a pretty conflicted guy all in all, with initially apparent issues with self-esteem, confidence, being rational, being self-motivated, living with purpose, etc, and those were the things that I wanted to help him with, because I saw "potential". And as time went on, he seemed to get there and that's when I believe I thought I loved him. He described his problems with his parents, and how he lacked deep friendships and could only bond with his friends when he drank; even asking for help in the drinking area, which we worked through cutting his drinking substantially while finding better things to replace that with. From the very beginning of my relationship, my ex was someone whose life was at bottom and I came in helping him to pick up all of the pieces, with little required in return aside from having someone regularly around, growing and loving me for my virtues. He always described me as a perfect girlfriend, his best friend, someone who knew more about him and understood him better than anyone else, but I couldn't say all of those things in return, but I was satisfied with his presence and companionship and I somehow mixed my objectivist ideals into it by saying that I should just love him selfishly because I wanted to and not because he "made" me happy, because my happiness is only mine to achieve and so that was our relationship. And so this is what I've done, and I did it to the best of my ability, but all the while, I feel like he resented me for it. He seemed to resent my being capable of helping him. He would ask questions and seemingly resent the answers but still go along with them. He also seemed to be always competing with me, and resented that I always won. Whenever I would say something I had accomplished or done, he would always come back with "wow that's great" and then discuss how he needed to improve himself in that way, or how badly he was doing in that. He would complain that "I hate that you always win arguments" or "I wish I could help you, you always have everything figured out" and none of these things were really said as a positive. So he "improved" himself. He changed his style, made tons of friends, got several jobs, started studying Chinese, etc. All things that he was initially against, and then throughout our relationship began to long for and go after and I thought that was an awesome thing, and my love for him grew, because I saw these as outstanding things to do and he thanked me for my encouragement along the way. And we grew closer and closer. The whole time, I feel like I gave him everything, even to the point that, when he really started to feel confident and sure of himself, doing well at his job, etc, he said that he wanted to take a break from "us" so that he could focus on himself and doing his job well and I supported him wholeheartedly, even though it hurt a bit deep down. I knew that letting him do things on his own was a what someone who loves someone does so that we didn't become codependent. When we decided to do all of that, he would start to exaggerate how busy he was; naming lists of things that he had to do in order to seem like he was doing much more than everyone else, when I realize it was just his way of trying to seem relevant on his own. And I never brought it up to him. But ever since I met him, he always seemed to try to make himself seem bigger than he was by bragging about the expensive college he went to and his rich grandmother, but those things weren't things he ever worked for or achieved by himself. Kind of inherited status that wasn't really his and wasn't really status; his life was very simple(besides traveling), his parents are very well off. So to fast forward to today, I feel a bit heartbroken that I gave so much to my ex and gained very little from him in a long-lasting sense. And in the end was coldly broken up with for someone who has done nothing but hurt him. It's hard for me to reconcile that this person appreciated me so little that he would so quickly let me go, while also at the same time realizing that the relationship wasn't really something that enhanced my life. Everything that I began to value in him seems to have drained from him in my eyes, the moment he had any hesitations about being with me. I believe that he wants the other girl, because like he said in a seeming Freudian slip, "she's as fucked up as I am" and "she's like a drug" and I feel like the drug is the freedom to be mediocre or to be himself. Perhaps he is unconsciously seeking his parents' relationship which consists of an alcoholic, childlike father who hoards to the point that there is only a small path that runs through their house surrounded by towers of trash a clutter and a mother who lets him get away with it while also, seems to live in her own reality that ignores the chaos that surrounds her in order to have someone there for her. His mother still babies him, makes every meal, makes his bed, does his laundry, etc. His mother seemed to like me in person, but when he told her about the other girl, he told me that his mom said that he should go after it(the other relationship). I feel like that says a lot about that relationship. I realize that my relationship was ultimately a compromise of my principles and virtues in exchange for a companion and seeing improvement and growth of someone else, with sex and emotional stimulation all mixed in. But my dilemma is that I knew all of these things about my ex and still entered a relationship, still stayed in the relationship and even fought for it in the end. I am having a hard time letting the idea of our relationship go, even though I know that it is not what I truly want/need. I know it, I believe I understand everything that has happened, but am I just using these reasons as a way to make myself feel better about being inadequate? I feel ashamed that I wasn't the one who broke up with him for someone better, not that he broke up with me for someone worse, and I am still jealous of what this other girl might inherit because of all love I gave him, even though I know that whatever he could give her would not be enough for me. I'm really confused about my feelings now... I feel like he's an asshole for leaving, and then I feel like I was an asshole for loving him expecting nothing in return. Now I am here, with all of these ideas, desperately seeking a rational person with whom I can confide, but am left with friends who can only give the advice "just feel the pain" or "time heals all things" "maybe he will come back", but I need more and my thoughts are running with the logic that I have presented here. Why do you think he responded in this way? Could anyone give me any insight into this? If you don't want to respond in the feed, feel free to private message or Skype me. I really need a rational support system, but it's hard to come by where I live.

Makes sense! Thanks for that.

That's a good way to think about it, but how would you go about convincing parents that their children should be likened to employees?

Anyone have any insights on how this is not such a great idea for a punishment for misbehaving children? http://www.barstoolsports.com/dmv/super-page/this-barber-who-gives-kids-old-man-haircuts-as-punishment-is-one-of-the-funniestsaddest-things-ive-ever-seen/?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange

My heart felt like a burned steak the other day. But I'm feeling better. I just wish I had someone to help me move on from this like he will. He has his built-in safety blanket, and I've just got myself and FDR! haha Yours is shorter so I'll try to answer it. I guess by change I should say "push" or "encourage" because there were a lot of things about his personality and lifestyle that he expressed to me that he didn't like and wanted me to help him overcome. Things like drinking too much, not being motivated, not believing in himself, and so I would do whatever I could to try to push him in a way that seemed better. Also, I emphasized how being rational was much more helpful as a tool than emotions were to help him achieve his goals, and as time went on, he took heed. He seemed to be making that choice, I never wanted to force him to do anything, he always seemed like it was what he wanted. Of course we would argue philosophy or politics, but I never wanted to just make him accept everything I said. I feel I probably was attracted to him for his openness to change and correct his errors as well as his potential. And when he became that person, I was kind of in it, but maybe he was never really that person. I totally understand what you mean. He said that his goal to get over this girl who broke his heart, with whom is now getting back with is was to go to Asia and just sleep around and make himself feel better until he met me. We both had ample opportunities to find other people and even both cheated on each other soon into the relationship but never did again.

Jeremi, You're so right. I didn't realize until now that the dragging was happening in that I thought we had bought agreed to personal growth together. But it turns out that wasn't the case. I'm done with the damsel in armor act.(not sure what would be the opposite of knight in shining armor? lol) I'm excited to see what's out there for me in the future! And this is definitely a lesson learned the hard way.

Jeremi, Thanks for this. It is very true. We were always careful when we thought about our relationship and wondered if it only fit in Taiwan, but not in the "real world". We thought there was really something here when I first visited him, but now I see that he wasn't really the person I thought he was; though he is capable of being that person. The US has given him the excuse he needed to escape the pressure of that guy, who's rational and determined and values the person who has pushed him the most to be great. As of now, I can see the small things indicators that he might have just been fitting in the mold, but I held on to hope. I'm ready to move on and I know what I want in a relationship, which is the person I thought he was. And I'm ready for it whenever it comes. I know myself, and I know what I want and need, but I also need to not compromise in any of the areas. Sadly, finding that type of guy pre-made, is not very likely! lol

I know what you mean. I wasn't helpless through all of this, but somehow I've drawn comfort from the idea that he actually wronged me and knowing that I shouldn't feel that I've lost so much no matter how much I cared about him. And all-in-all this brings on self-reflection as to why I was ever attracted to him. Being angry at him feels better than still loving him to death for something he's not. Thank you for your advice!

Is it realistic to feel like I've been wronged throughout this? I feel like he has been an asshole for doing this, but is it wrong to feel that way?

We were together for 2 years. I think that he had become a great person in Taiwan, but upon returning he began to turn back to his normal ways, and when we were near to each other he just wandered away, which is why is looked for the other girl for comfort. I think he I was constantly trying to change him, but I would often him push him to become a better person. And that was something that he always said he appreciated about me. Now He's going to use the things I taught/helped to see on someone else. Kinda sucks. I think the sting comes a lot from the idea that the love of my life so abruptly left me for someone else. Though he claims he hasn't made the decision to be with her yet. Deep down I know that there would be no decision to make were it not for her. So seeing all of these dreams crash in the form of his being with her feels a bit "stingy". I've never fully opened up or given my heart to anyone in my life, and every time I've thought about it has ended with me feeling like I shouldn't have. And finally this person comes along who I feel I can trust with everything, and end the end, they end up leaving me as well. I was raised to be distrustful of others and it took me a while to get over that, and this relationship was my ultimate challenge, and here's how it ends..

Well, This all ended well I guess. He had the power I didn't have to break up with me, finally and I feel good about it. I fought it really hard, but deep down I realized that this was not what I really wanted from a relationship, but I didn't want to let it go. I cried as he was doing it, but the next morning I felt so free, and was really able to clearly think about how much of an asshole he really was, and how desperate I was to not be alone or to lose him. Why was I fighting for him? It wasn't really worth it, but I'm glad he didn't give into to my pleas to try to make it work. Because, I have been so delusional for the past few weeks. I've known all along what would come of this, but wanted to prolong it for the sake of comfort. I'm kind of ashamed of myself, because I've known all along that we we're not compatible, but I felt that over the past years I had changed or helped him change and that I had molded him into the ideal man for me; and that's not the case. As soon as I was gone, he reverted back to that 22 year old him that I met while exploring the world. And I'm too old for that now. He's not really a bad boy, but an asshole without knowing it. He meant well by breaking up, but I still think that he created this entire situation and hurt two people in the process. Of course myself the most. So maybe not "bad boy" but definitely "asshole" He has been my first serious relationship and I realize that the average woman has 2-3 so, I'm dusting off my shoulders and getting my life together as a single person. This just happened last night, so I know I'm not completely over it, but I felt before that I couldn't live without him, and now, I realize that that is just bullshit. I blocked/erased him from my life, but not before regaining some dignity and writing him a letter recounting my true feelings on the matter, minus my irrational display of emotions in from of him. He will probably be with that other girl, and that still stings my heart a bit, to the point that I want to cut him off completely so I don't have to see when it happens. Not sure if this is healthy behavior, but I've never done this before so I'm doing my best! Any suggestions??

Is it healthy to depend on others in relationships? And if so, based on this philosophy, when is it appropriate and when does it become unhealthy?

That's really badass MMX2010! I can see how that could be unappealing to some women, but it seems to be working well for you.

Wow, I couldn't have had a better explanation that makes more sense than this. It seems like this might really be the case. He has always said that I'm the best gf a man could have, and yet, he still wandered away a bit. I even told him that I was okay if he wanted to try to work it out with the both of us, but she was not having it, and he decided that he couldn't feel right about splitting affections between us. We've talked of having open relationships, but I think it didn't seem so appealing to me when he turned it into a choice between the two of us. I like him a lot and wouldn't mind accepting a slightly less conventional relationship, but he's put the restrictions on himself, and once he did that, I added extra pressure for him to make a choice and that's when he made this decision. If it turns out not to work out in the end I'll have to get over it, but I really care about him in that rational Ayn Rand-Nathaniel Braden kind of way, which doesn't really work in society. MMX2010, I would be curious to see how your lifestyle plays out for you. I think if I want a future with kids it's not sustainable to have a person who is not committed to me, but for now, there are no kids relying on my choices, and I'd just like to be the happiest I can be in the present. I think this discussion has been enlightening and has given me some ideas of things to discuss with my bf, so I thank you all for your input!

Yeah, I'm sorry, there are just so many details that I'm trying to pick and choose which ones seem relevant. He admitted that they had a sexual encounter which wasn't intercourse, but sexual in nature when she visited him. That was before I went there. I asked him if I had lived near him if that would have happened and he said, "no." He's always said that I'm the most beautiful girl he has ever met and when I visited him he was very complimentary of my appearance; saying that I look the best I every had. I believe we're all about the same age. I asked him if he thought she was beautiful and he said, "I think she is." I haven't really seen a picture of her up close, but she seems pretty. I don't usually compare myself to others in the regard, but I think their connection was more emotional. I'm just so confused as to how only a few months ago we were talking about moving in together, possibly getting married, and having children, to working on our friendship and possibly not living near each other. I am going to visit him and asked if he is still interested in sexual things with me and he said, yes. So I'm just so fucking confused about what romance consists of if not this! But I also, feel like I'm putting more pressure on the situation than I really want. I don't really care about all of these future plans, I just want to be with him now, even if we aren't together forever. He had history with this girl before and she broke his heart right before we got back together and then suddenly reappeared. I think this may have something to do with his conflicted feelings for her.

This makes since and I don't downplay your input because of your misogynistic tendencies! Strangely, he made the choice to not completely dump her out of his life, but to downgrade their relationship to friendship status, because there was a huge blow up with her when he explained to her that he intended on working things out with me. They are still friends, and he openly tells me when he's going to talk to her, and what he plans to talk about because she has some seemingly useful connections for him in his prospective career. He has told me that he came to the choice to work on things with me on his own, and intends to do the best to make it work and so far, I can't say he isn't trying. He doesn't seem as interested in her romantically as he did before in that I went to visit him around the time that he broke the news to me that he might be in love with her and during that time he was so broken up. He later explained that she gave him more emotional support that I did and that made him feel special and begin to care about her. I know I have a huge flaw in neglecting my and other's emotional needs so I told him that I would work on it with him and it is something that I really want. So when I told him that, he immediately said, "I have to tell her that we are going to work on us" which made me happy and pissed her off. He went to visit her where she lives because he was planning on it even before he told me all of this, and when he went there he said he talked with her a lot about how they need to just be friends and yet in one instance she tried to kiss him. He texted me and told me what happened and how he refused and how that made him even more confident that he should totally commit to me. He's said all of these things, and has actively tried to work on our communication, but I think he has become very hesitant to make any commitments now. So, I'm at a loss. I asked him yesterday if I could visit him in a few weeks and he seemed genuinely happy about it, so maybe when I go there we can connect again.

Wow, That's eerily similar to my situation. I guess I have to be honest with myself about my motivations and whether or not he is as great as I think he is. I'm fairly certain he isn't being unfaithful right now, but I think it could be possible that he is wanting to slowly kill the relationship with the distance so he won't have to have the guilt of dumping me flat out. I guess having this idea that he would do something like that is kind of shocking considering our history together, and maybe our history is blinding me to the details of what's going on right now. From all of you all's input, it sounds like I'm being slowly dumped lol. It's not the most pleasant feeling, and I will check for certain from here soon by explaining all of my needs or expectations from him and seeing if he has any interest at all of fulfilling them. Thank you all for your advice and input. I appreciate that you've taken the time!

Wow, It's strange, but throughout our relationship it's been this way. I've been around him for so long that this is not very surprising. He uses his emotions a lot and is often blown about by whims and ideas, while I've been more of the reasonable one. I understand what you're saying though this is not so out of character for him. But it is a first in regards to our relationship. I guess I'm still just confused about where romance and love split. How do you tend to make that distinction when it comes down to it? As a male, any advice on how to go about this? What is the most effective way to approach someone who is afraid of commitment?

Oh, that would be tragic! Do you think he's placed his romantic feelings elsewhere and isn't really confused at all?