CuriousGeorge

Hi TweetyI found this book helpful in learning to deal with underlying emotions of anger in our family. It talks about distancing as a coping mechanism, amongst other ways women often deal with anger, guilt trips, hypersensitivity, manipulation, and how when three women are involved how the dynamics of that can make problems harder to solve.. It talks about how to confront in the best way possible to open up dialogue and to solve the underlying issues. It helps in how to deal with Anger especially in women. Best wishes The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships by Harriet Lerner "Anger is a signal and one worth listening to," writes Dr. Harriet Lerner, in her renowned classic that has transformed the lives of millions of readers. While anger deserves our attention and respect, women still learn to silence our anger, to deny it entirely, or to vent it in a way that leaves us feeling helpless and powerless. In this engaging and eminently wise book, Dr. Lerner teaches women to identify the true sources of our anger and to use anger as a powerful vehicle for creating lasting change. (less)

I also came across Freedomainradio doing research because I have a 19 year old son whom I love very much. I have been worried about him going into society and his ability to find a partner that will actually care for him and their children. I also have three brothers, all who have been given a very rough time by the women that picked them as husbands. My brothers were not prepared to cope with life, society, government and the opposite sex. They still struggle, and that will continue. I however have become conscious of the problems facing men partly from being a first hand witness to it, and wondering why it seemed to be an epidemic for the men around me. It used to be that I was more conscious of women's rights as our household was centered around a strong mother figure and the father was mostly absent. As a mother, I want to prepare my kids and hopefully point out the truths that I find so often in the podcasts I now tune into. I wish I had been able to know the things I now know sooner. I have to now try to get my son to tune into some of the podcasts on men's issues from a distance. He is in university and lives a ways away. Society does brainwash women constantly about women's rights to the extent that men are really downplayed. Many of the men I know, are being victimized by the whole system. My one brother is moving towards a divorce, his wife had an affair, she has refused to clean the house for four years, refuses to work or contribute financially and is abusive of some of the kids (the boys). She was a 10 on the attractive scale. She will rake in the cash as she will get support for being allowed to be this way, by the laws that so often fail the family. She actually picks on the son that looks like my brother, just for her enjoyment I think. The older son even called Children's aid on his own mother for her behaviour at one point. I am in contact with the lad a lot and try to be a woman in his life that is supportive and cares for him. The legal system fails to find much truth in circumstances like this. My brother works full time, cleans. cooks and does activities with the kids. The wife sits on the couch with her computer. I am pushing back too because it is the right, honest thing to do for me as well as for the males in my life and society. I have come to accept that women and men are very different. Yes, at one time I would have bristled that Men could ever say that they have a higher IQ or are better at anything than a women. Now, I realize women and men are quite different, for many evolutionary and societal reasons. I accept this and have peace with it. I hope for a society that both sexs seek human rights, truth and peace. It is OK to be different. There is infact strength in that for facing a future together. I am trying to educate my family, brothers, mother, kids and husband by telling them things I learn here. I am glad there are so many young men on this site, and so many people that can find a place to figure out the many truths that are pointed out here. In talking to my daughter about men's rights as well, perhaps she will be able to appreciate men more than I did growing up. The fact that she has a Dad that wrestles with her, jokes with her and talks with her all the time i hope will put her in a good position to relate to men. So, I am putting men's rights out there to the men and women in my circle. I did not have a good father, he was abusive and neglectful, for a long time this made it harder for me to be sympathetic of males. Having a son, a good husband, and seeing the wreckage of men's lives from unaccountable women has made me realize there are a lot of dangers for men that are not addressed enough. Anger at injustice is what I feel. When I have addressed some of these 70% of women that walk away from marriages about the damage to the kids, they have often responded with "well kids are resilient". They have not looked into the statistics. They are not informing themselves, and society crumbles more.

Hi All There are a lot of elements in the situation that I have come across. The original question should likely lead to many more questions - as it has for me. What broke down in a family when child abuse goes unnoticed and why? I am on the road to understanding the entire situation a bit better. Have purchased two books - Three Minute Therapy by Dr Michael Edelstein and the Six Pillars of self esteem. They are kind of opposing views on self esteem from what I have read so far. I have spent about 15 -20 hours talking with my 84 year old mother about these events of my childhood. It has been hard on her to do this to her as it is a hard, emotional experience to go thru at my age let alone hers. As well, I have talked at length with one of my brothers about his experiences, which were bad as well. I would rather dig out conclusions with her, no matter how difficult it is than stay in the dark. My mom has always had a policy of trying to keep learning. Once my questions had settled in with my mom, she was very, vert upset. Could not sleep for days. She started questioning my siblings and asking them about their childhood experiences and how it affected them. My brothers all pointed out that she was not able to protect us from my Dad 24-7 and that his neglect and abuse was hard on them and likely caused low self esteem and self worth within them too. I learned that my Dad actually poked one of my brothers in the leg with a pitchfork (to the bone) for not working fast enough. Then he said "Don't tell Mom". I learned that all my brothers had issues that followed them to adulthood, like myself. I suspected this from their marriages and current situations. It may also brings to light why they all did not end up with good partners. (one of them has remarried and has a nice wife that treats him good), the others struggle with wives that are neglectful and abusive. My Dad and Mom's relationship of having to fight all the time caused this to be a normal in our household (bad example for kids). A lot of the fights were about how he treated us kids as she was constantly protecting us physically. Since he was really never interested in having us, she decided that she would be the one to raise us and care for us and she tried to take the full responsibility for that. In fairness to her, she was a loving, present, adult who met our needs in many ways. In reality, she had pipe dreams and denial that she could do it all. You can't have a monster in the house and have the kids turn out normal. Parents should stress to kids about picking a good mate, one that would be a good parent. Hindsight is 20/20 in this whole mess, for everyone concerned. She said that the one thing she wanted in life was kids and that is what her life has been about. She acknowledged the damage she did by choosing a man with personality problems. She was 19 when she married him and thought that she could help him become socially and mentally OK. My mothers own father promoted her marriage to my Dad as being good as he was from a "good family" meaning a hard working bunch who had money. She said she was playing social worker and that there were many red flags that she blew thru as she thought she could manage. 65 years ago, divorce, was not common practice. My Dad did not drink, worked hard, did not fool around and she did not feel moral in divorcing him later in life. She also has a Christian belief that marriage is for keeps. My Dad became more abusive with the second son than the first. Remember that late in life he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Socially, he would be a recluse if he had not married. He had no friends, is paranoid, can't make decisions and could not be a father for us. He also was never able to admit once in his life that he had done anything wrong to her or to us. 65 years ago, when she was a young women, in that day and age, she was told she would marry and have kids, that education and having a career were not in the cards for her. Thru her childhood, she had no physical abuse and her parents were loving she was not expected to have anything more than kids and a husband by her parents and was coached to that reality. It was never stressed to her to meet a man who was going to be a good dad, or husband or to have any personal goals for herself - other than one - be a wife. The kids now have pointed out to her the huge gaping gap in our lives where a Dad was suppose to be and the realization dawned on her that she had not protected us from him in really at all. He hurt us physically and mentally by being neglectful, negative to us and abusive. She has apologized and realized that she should not have had kids with him and should have left him early on. In her selfish way she always had focused on how her core "needs and demands" were missed out on. She also put her core need of being a Mother first, before our core need of having a good father. Believe me when I say that her life has been miserable being married to him and that the suffering has been great on her too. Ours too have been difficult as a male role model and a father is very important to kids. I see how my husband is with our kids and it drives home even more what I grew up not having. My Mom talked herself into that she actually could be all we needed. I think this is the same mistake single moms make and the society today that supports women who decide to go it alone. Nope, it doesn't work well for the kids. She acknowledges she let us down as well as herself and how she regrets her decisions. She has said she would have done things totally different if she could redo things and that she has terrible regrets. She said that she doesn't regret having kids (just with my dad) and that she could not have loved us more but that she is also very sorry and realizes the damage done. She has asked if there is anything she can do and has asked to perhaps see a councillor with me. Everyone in my family has just always kind of accepted how dysfunctional my Dad is and never really added up the cost to us kids. That is the sad part. The cost to her has always been her focus as her core needs in a life partner were not met. Our core needs to have a good Dad as children was not focused on. I do not think the needs of lots of children ever are really taken into consideration like they should be by a majority of parents I know, even today. It has made me very aware of my own actions or lack of in this regard to my kids. I have always been a more fearful person. I feel if one child is fearful and another forceful and brave it makes a difference how they react to situations even sexual abuse. I realize also that if my father had infact been the kind of father that hugged me, talked to me, didn't abuse me, played with me, I might have had some more self esteem and may have been less likely to accept the attentions of this boy. I may have developed to be less fearful as well. When one parent is loving and the other is not, it still raises the same question in a child - why does this parent not really love me?- I must not be that important. My dad also had a big part in not being there for me. If one looks at his childhood family dynamics and trauma - it is a mess as well. Abuse often begets abuse. Dysfunction too. I knew also at a young age that my mom was my only source of comfort. It is important for a child to not have the only source of comfort get angry at them. It seems often better for some kids to be quiet than to cause trouble. I learned to be quiet also from being around my Dad since any noise would set him off in an abusive rage. I think because children can't reason or see a situation for what it is, I could not have figure this stuff out as a child. I realize that my Mom would infact have protect me if she had known about the sexual abuse. Recall, my mom did not spank me, but she did spank my brother who was 2 years older than me and I saw that and internalized it. If she did spank, she did only when she had warned once, spelled out the problem and asked us to quit a behaviour. So at least with her there was some sort of reason to the abuse. Physical abuse of a child should not happen at all. Since I had no support from my Dad emotionally I could not afford to make my only source of protection angry at me. I am a fearful person to this day. Some people are brave, some not so much. I believe that there are proven genetic tendencies in this area, also there are warrior types of people. I think that children that get abused must often have parents that are neglectful. If my Dad had any capacity to value me, perhaps I would have not ended up a victim of the sexual abuse. My mom has cried a lot about my sexual abuse and expressed how terrible she feels for not knowing. She has said that I need to hug that 6 year old me and try to heal and she has said that if there is anything she could do now she would do it. I feel that many of you would say -"no excuses for your mother". Well, I have brought about a painful reality to her and some enlightenment to her in regards to her life decisions and the resulting chaos. She feels she has failed us and feels bad. She says she has to also try to forgive the idiot that she was for thinking she could manage my Dad and have kids with him. If nothing else may I stress that "positive parenting" and being really aware of getting a good quality mate for both yourself and your kids is so fundamentally important to mankind as a whole. I agree that going forward that so many lives could be improved by the quality of parents and the homes in which children are being raised in. The keys to a better society are woven into the quality of life for the most innocent and vulnerable of society, kids. A good takeaway for me to pass on to my kids.

Thank you, I will read the book. I think that my story is not that uncommon and I am sorry Mahayna that you share some of these experiences as well. It has helped me to post. If someone knows of a really good therapist from the Halton region in the GTA, I would be game to see someone. It has been hit and miss to find someone. The last one I had I did not connect with at all. Perhaps I was too fragmented somehow to get my thoughts out. Yes, Kurtis, good point about how abuse can end up terribly serious and cause death when someone is out of control. I have heard this before and agree. Yes, this happens. Perhaps I do minimize what happened. I am striving to be as rational as possible. I know I am damaged emotionally and could perhaps not see things clearly. It takes a long time sometimes to come to solid conclusions and the info I am getting from this site is opening these wounds again. I question myself a lot and second guess myself. I have talked to my Mom again for 3 hours today. She did say again she could not apologize for something she did not know about. She also said that if she knew then what she knows now, she would make totally different choices. She would have educated me. She would not have married my dad and had kids with him. I think that is enough for me. I have given her a lot of info to digest as I printed off some studies for her on the effects of sexual abuse on adults. Thank you I guess this concludes this subject for now until I find another peel of the onion. Hope there is not much more to go.

Matthew, I was thinking about the Lion in the cage analogy. I think that it is a too extreme. It was more like a short tempered much older sibling, the way my Dad acted. To be fair, his physical abuse was not life threatening like a lion's. A lion would tear apart a kid and then eat them. He would lash out at us in frustration and anger and hit us a couple of times. It stopped when we became teenagers because he became scared that we would hit him back (and my one brother did that). My mom prevented this by being tough with him and telling him off and even standing between us and him. I don't think my Mom knew what to look for in a predator. This was 45 years ago and advertising about things like this on the news was unheard of. I do think that she should have thought about this as a possibility. When she was a child, a dinner guest put his hand in her crotch at a family meal. She immediately left the table. There was no discussion ever with me about good touching or bad touching and I had a brother that was 11 years older, 7 years older and 2 years older. This was neglect or ignorance on her part - but it is her opinion against mine. Do I push that envelope and demand that she agree with me? Listening to these podcasts on abuse has made me question how and why this happened to me. I am angry all over again after I listen to some of them and it stirs up these questions. Stefan has cut ties with his family. I think that they are unaccountable for their actions and thus still abusive of his person in that. My mothers denial of it being her fault is what I am weighing in on. I am trying to determine if she is accountable, and to be fair to her, I wanted you to know the situation with her personally. Society in general was way less informed 45 years ago. Should this be accounted for? If our media brings things to attention for us, are past generations accountable for not having knowledge and protections in place for children? I think that my trying to be a really good person to others is a compensation for feeling bad inside about myself. Then if that is the case - I am misleading myself because of something that happened 45 years ago in trying to be too good and too careful. I have stopped the cycle, so that is a positive. My children and their children will be as protected as possible, if I can have anything to do with that. I agree that we are morally obligated to protect our children till they are adults. I think that even when they are adults we should act like mentors and gently ask them when they are making decisions to take certain dangers we know of into consideration. My 19 year old son and I have discussions and I point out things I think are important to him as white male in our society. I have asked him to listen to some of Stefan's podcasts on single mothers and R vs K strategies. My advice to him about life was be very careful who you marry and try to pick what you do for a living wisely too. He is doing a double major in engineering. I had him go to a private career firm to weigh his likes and dislikes when he was 17 years old. We regularly communicate though he is busy with university and his girlfriend. Thank-you everyone. I realize this was all about me and my family problems. It is self centered to post all this stuff and these questions, and you have been gracious and each insightful in your comments. Perhaps people that read it will learn from the mistakes of our family and be more aware of their own actions with their own children.

Thank-you Matthew, Will, Mahayana for your input. Yes, the predator... my brothers friend had access to me for 5 years and this same brother did the same type of abuse only once himself. Yes, I did confront him as well when I came out about the abuse of his friend. The niece that I was trying to protect is this brothers daughter. The same crummy friend was over there all the time around my niece, thus my anxiety. My brothers answer to my confrontation of him doing it as well ... was that a teenage boy's sexual drive is so strong that they do this sort of thing because they are so full of hormones. Thus he did made excuses for his own behaviour and his friends. My mom is aware of this as well. My Mom seems to be angry at the friend of my brother but not so much at my brother (I guess doing it once is different than doing it all the time.) That friend of my brothers went on to have an affair with my brothers wife. Their long friendship finally broke up and so did my brothers marriage. My brothers wife fooled around on him a total of 5 times and finally left him for someone else. The protection I tried to give my niece did not do her any good when her new stepfather molested her. He served 18 months in prison and that 2nd marriage of my x-sister-in-law failed as well. The niece is now a single mother and really, really screwed up in my opinion. These events are quite astounding aren't they? I am very careful of people now and do not trust easily. My molester was a very polite boy. He impressed my mom by his good manners. His background was English. I can ask my brother if he ever suspected the abuse and why this friend was not hanging around him at these times he was over instead of messing with me. What is the point of asking him though? His excuse was lame the first time. My Dad, (the lion). My mom married him and thought that she could "fix" him. He was socially strange and she said many times she made a terrible mistake. No, she could not protect us from him when she was not around. True. He lashed out at us when she was not around, usually when we did something that a kid would do like spill our milk or talk back to him. His eyes looked mean. He was dysfunctional. Not until he was old did they figure it out about the borderline personality disorder. I am the youngest of the four. Yes, she chose to keep having kids with him. She wanted kids badly. Very late in life he was diagnosed with "borderline personality disorder" by a CCAC geriatric psychiatrist. I bought two books on it and gave one to her. It is a condition that doesn't respond well to any kind of counselling. It is hereditary too. I had to try to examine myself to see if I had it. My mom read the books I gave her and said "I see that this is the problem with him". They had a terrible marriage. Yes, she knew he was abusive with the kids. By telling you the situation she was in, I am trying to be fair to her in what was a difficult situation. When one weighs what actions people do, should parents circumstances be taken into account? There is a study (social experiment) where people are told to give shocks to others to make them behave better - many of the test subjects ended up giving the shocks in spite of knowing it might kill the subject because of a (faked) heart condition. Most of the test subjects failed the test and administered shocks that could kill the subject - even though they knew. The "fake authoritarian dr., in the white lab coat" pushed these people to do this. Perhaps this is a different way of looking at it? Milgram experiment is the name of the study. Done to discover if holocaust participants were just following orders. I have had to examine a lot of things to know how the sexual abuse manifested itself in me. It is a rotten ongoing chore like peeling an onion. I was worried about that I might molest my own kids at one point when I was a young mother. I had read somewhere that abused kids often go on to become abusers themselves. I question myself all the time about my parenting and read a lot of books. I have tried to be a transitional figure and responsible to my family. My mom is now 84 and my dad 91. I am the main supporter as I am available and my 3 brothers are all working full time. If I cut them out of my life, for these actions, it is something that I have to live with doing. They are in their 11th hour and have needed me due to health issues. I want to be truthful here, I want to do the right thing for myself and for them. Stefan cut his mother out of his life. I think she sounded like a terrible mother. My mother, protected me a bunch and if she had left my Dad, I think I would score higher on the ACE score. There would have been poverty and divorce added to my score. My husband asked me the question "What do you want the end result of all this to be"? I have told him to read this blog with your comments. That is a good question. I agree that trust can't be handed out carelessly. I did not trust anybody easily with my kids. Is there forgiveness for stupidity and or abuse? If I walked away from family, it would cause quite a stir as I have been the one in the driver's seat of geriatric care. I feel let down, though. What is the next step in healing? I am angry. I have confronted them. These are things Stefan said to do. There is no excuse for my Dad's behaviour or my Mom's acceptance of that lion in the house, as Matthew put it so well. There doesn't seem to be accountability as well. This hurts me still. Is there ever going to be recovery from this. I am near 50 and still digesting this stuff. I wonder what children who do not go thru this sort of stuff are like and what difference it makes in their lives. There is a study by Princeton University - Immediate and long-term impacts of Child Sexual abuse. In it it talks about the long term effects and I fit some of the damaged criteria quite well. I told my mom this and she discounted the study and said she read Dr. Spock about not spanking (50 years ago) and that the man later said that not spanking was not working either. I reminded her that there has been a lot more studies over the last 50 years and that social science is much more advanced now. Just like medical advances we have advances in the understanding of the human mind and condition. She seems to belittle what I am trying to get across. I always “blow everything out of proprtion and believe everything I read, I am told.” The question was asked - When am I going to just get over this whole thing? I don't have an answer for that one.

My mom was ignorant of the abuse. She did protect us from our Dad. My mom and I try to be honest with each other and talk things out. In this case when she said she can't apologise for something she did not know, it felt wrong to me. Perhaps because I am angry and sad for that child that fell thru the cracks and is still trying to manage low self worth. I feel that children might internalize abuse and it becomes who they are. I scored a 4 on my ACE score. I am not in counselling but have been studying all my life and have always been interested in psychology. I have studied the effects of abuse because of my childhood experience. I did not want to abuse my kids and wanted to be a good parent. I know it is not possible to protect a child 24/7 but I was very careful with my kids, as careful as I could be in a realistic way. In realistic, I mean, I tried hard to talk to them a lot. When they got bullied at school, I would go and deal with it and they come to me with problems to talk things out all the time. I got to know my kids friends, and parents of friends, stayed involved, I warned them outright to come to me if there was inappropriate touching. I explained what that was and how to be careful in a age appropriate way. Perhaps in my Mom's generation it was not talked about. Things are different now and that is a good thing. Thank-you both very much for your reply's. It is easier to go to strangers for advice like this than family. My mom feels bad about this and she tried to be a good mom for what she knew at the time. I am at least sure of that.

I think that if I had not witnessed my brother being spanked with a wooden spoon on the bare bum that I may have come forward. That occurred when I was 4 and he was 6 because he was investigating my privates. It cemented in my 4 year old brain that I could get in trouble because of us fooling around with our privates. I was scared of my mom, she is tough. I am petite and she is built like a man, she has a strong personality. She was also the one that protected us from our Dad who was actually physically abusive. He was always stressed, worked 7 days a week and took it out on us. They were in many fights over him trying to physically abuse us and he could not hit us when she was around. Lucky for us he was always working and when he was home, we stayed out of his way. If she would have left him, in that time, women did not have many job opportunities, she could not have made it work without being completely absent. We would have lived in poverty and my Dad was at least financial support. He never played with us once. She chose to stay. She admits she chose the wrong man. They had a 7 acre hobby farm, livestock, he had a full time job (60 hrs a week, 7 days a week at a factory). My mom and dad had 4 children to look after, a big house to fix up, a huge garden, she sewed all our clothes for a long time. They are dutch, lived thru the war and German occupation. Having land and a garden symbolizes survival for them and that is how their families made it thru WW2. My Dad was slave labour in a German work camp. She did take us camping, baked good meals, kept us clean, gave us hugs and kisses. My Dad was later diagnosed with a personality disorder. My mother did not beat me, but spanked my brothers. I was pinched regularly if I acted up in a store, but that is about it. I did not come forward with what was happening. I feel bad about that i did not tell. If I had, she would have been very angry and stopped the abuse. I hope everyone that reads this realizes from this that sometimes one spanking can be so disastrous for a child internally. My Mom and Dad live independently of me except for my help one day a week. It is my mother-in-law that we moved in. She has Alzheimer's. I think I put too much on my plate taking care of her when my kids could have used the time and energy. Yes, guilty of the same thing likely as my mom and her business when I was a kid. I know that she did not suspect the abuse. I talked to her about it. I had to ask the question, why did this happen for so long. Maybe that is a stupid question.

I am looking for a moral, ethical answer to a question that is bothering me deeply. I was molested from the time I was 6 to 11 by a boy that was 6 years older than me. There was not intercourse, but everything else, and I realize that I was a utility for him to meet sexual wants. This realization happened later when I went to coucilling in my 30’s. He was a friend of my older brother and had access to do this over 5 years. I recently asked my Mom how this could take place for so long ? What she was doing while it happened and why I was not protected better? She said to me that she could not apologize for something that she did not know about. I have been giving my parents one day a week of my help for 15 years as they do not drive and are not healthy. I also took care of my mother-in-law (a miserable one) who has Alzheimer's for two years till it made me feel like giving up on life. The stress was too much as she was incontinent for a half a year of that care. I realized that taking her in took away my time from my family and could kick myself. When I said this to my mom, she accused me of having PMS. I feel I have been a really good daughter in every way. I feel really let down by my Mom’s answers. Is this fair of me? I also wonder if I have boundary issues. I think I struggle with being a pleaser . I have a 15 year old daughter and was very careful to not allow anyone access to her. I have been very watchful and diligent to help my children in every way I could. I have stayed home, made good meals, lots of love, fun and open communication, emotional support and help with schooling. They are doing great. Since I felt bad about myself as a result of feelings of guilt and shame about the abuse I think I have been super diligent with those around me. My husband has a great job and I have been able to stay home and care for kids and parents because of him. I always second guess my staying at home and wonder if I am lazy. We have no mortgage, or debt and I do all the chores I can so that my husband can concentrate on work and have RNR time after work. He really seems to love me and is very supportive of me back. We enjoy our lives together. I feel like I have to justify myself all the time. I do not feel comfortable in my own skin. My mother spanked my brother with a wooden spoon when we were 4 and 6 because he looked at my privates. I was scared of her and did not tell her till my 30’s about the abuse. I finally told when my niece was in a situation where she could have been abused by the person that abused me. I had a panic attack and realized I had to say something to prevent a possible abuse. I did go to councilling and have done a bunch of self searching to figure out the effects on me. I am trying to know myself. She also let me date a guy that was 28 when I was 18. I think I would chase a guy with a baseball bat that was that much older than my daughter. I asked her why she did not tell him to go away and she said “Well you learned from dating him?” I did, I learned what I did not want. Any advice about my mom’s responsibility to me to keep me from getting molested? Is she right that since she did not know, it is not her fault and that she was a victim like me? I have been listening to Stefan’s parenting podcasts and now have serious questions. Thanks