Luisa

Thank you! I got a lot of value out of this.

Yes, that is my point. When do we know we are no longer conscious - when we can no longer make choices. And so when do stop making choices - when we are no longer conscious. But going back to you initial argument. So I believe you are saying that because a specific choice cannot be made in "all places and times" that choice in and of itself is not universal? Pls correct me if this is not the case. So if we use your example of choosing a specific meal - if we were to extrapolate a principle from this it would be: a being can make the exact same choice, causing a multitude of effects within a specific time and place, for eternity. If we were to universalise this then all beings would be practically omnipotent and the rules of space/time would be violated. So no - you cannot make the same choice twice.

Yes, I totally agree. I personally think subjective overlay is more powerful in influencing attraction. However, my statement was to refute the point that just because there are individual differences in attraction preferences (say when supermodels are rated amongst friends) that a purely objective standard of beauty is automatically negated. With your analogy, I wonder how genetics and epi-genetics would come into play in determing, say, a woman's preferred dress?

My point is not "observer dependant", but more accurately "dependant on the observer's genetic material". Genetic material is objective because you can take someone's saliva to two different labs and get the same results twice. Say you input the genetic information of two individuals in a super computer. You could imagine that if all functions of how genetic information is combined in offspring is known, that it could compute the strength of attraction for these individuals. Does this not then produce a universal measurement, that could be applied to all people? Granted it is more complex than a linear ranking system because there are confounding factors. You can imagine it playing out when a man may prefer a woman with a slightly more rounder nose because his is quite sharp, or perhaps a woman preferring a man with thicker lips because hers are fine. Evolutionary it makes sense that humans would look to correct any slight "imbalances" in features in order to maintain a standard of beauty (golden ratio) throughout generations.

Do you include the choice of a bird to fly north, or when a certain lottery number is chosen in your definition of choice? Then you would be describing cause and effect, which is universal. Or if you only mean a conscious choice, then the universal is that all conscious beings make conscious choices. The universal only applies to the principle, not a singular event which is expressing that principle, would it not?

Well I would argue that there could be a universal standard that a person is most attracted to the person who displays the best genetics that when combined with their own produces the most genetically strong offspring. The objectivity comes in the way that it can be universalised. There would be no universal rankings, but you could conceive that if all factors are known in the minutest detail, you could reliably predict people's preferences. This would apply only to pure looks though, not how behavior affects attraction.

Differences in attraction preferences could also originate from differences in the observer's own genetic make-up, in terms of how a unique combination of genetics would translate for the resulting offspring. This would still be objective, but account for individual differences.

Hi Asaf - We have interesting similarities in our lives. I have older sisters, and although one is twice married, it looks unlikely that both will ever be parents. When I was an impressionable teenager, my sisters and I would like nothing better than to watch Sex And The City (do you know it?) together, one of the very few activities we would do together (pretty sad I know). As I saw my older sisters live out their lives with almost complete absorption of the values and ideals presented in the show, the cracks and gradual soul-rot of the resulting life trajectories served a big enough warning. They had all the trappings that status can bring, one even moved to New York from the southern hemisphere, but as the wrinkles set in, discontentment grew and neurotic behaviours increased, the illusion of glamour was shattered. These women had somehow been conditioned to live an eternal adolescence, sacrificing such things as self-realisation, financial independence and even having one's own offspring and continuing the family line. So while my sisters were the primary cultural influences in my early life, I instinctively knew I didn't want to play this game. However, my self-esteem was very low, so I internalised a lot and believed there was something very wrong with me for not pulling-off a highfalutin lifestyle. I retreated a lot, spent a lot of time alone, played a lot of RPGs... so even though I'm grateful that I didn't necessarily risk a lot, I believe I wasted a lot of time. I would have preferred to have children a little younger (when I was your age I thought I didn't want children). I probably would have worked more hours and saved more. I also would have been a lot pickier with my friends, not spending as many nights as I did with people I only found tolerable with a steady dose of alcohol... like when I got married, we eloped because we are very much lone wolves in this world. But I still feel very fortunate where I am now. What wounds me the most was that I played a part in the madness. The fact that I bought into the lies, even if for just one day, makes me feel quite gross. Listening to Stefan has vindicated my struggles and helped me to really focus on my goals. Do you think you'll do things much differently now after your call into the show? It would be great to hear on your progress.

Hi Asaf. I am also new to the forums. I found your call into the show very useful, as I am also experiencing a very similar situation. It is quite the conundrum we face by living in a society whose principles deviate so far from our own. I am at a point where I am willing to walk away from the majority of friends and family as I have to compromise so much of myself in my interactions with them. At the same time I take full ownership of this situation, because if I am honest with myself I can admit that these relationships were formed under the basis of convenience and status. It is great that you are living so deliberately at such a young age, as you have so much time to design your lifestyle on your own terms. I guess the question is, can you be a reformed PUA?

Hi All, My name is Louise. I am a happily married 29 year old that has been casually listening to Freedomain Radio for about a couple years now. At first I admit to being resistant to the ideas being expressed, but now I find myself being very passionate about the non-initiation of force, and how it is continuously being violated in our society. I am looking forward to a more active part in this community, and hope to make meaningful and enriching connections. If I had to say what my highest value was, it would be a commitment to the truth. This commitment has definitely grown over the years. I have changed a lot as a person throughout my twenties. Sadly, for a sizable percentage of my adult life I based many of my decisions on sub-conscious programming that had superficial and self-destruction elements to it. I have done a lot of personal development work and I am currently starting therapy for some deeper work. As a result, I am getting to know myself more and more. It has been a beautiful and joyous process, much like reconnecting with a beloved friend who had been missing for far too long. I am fortunate to have chosen a very intelligent husband who has also taken the baton and embarked on a courageous journey of self discovery a long side me. It is our ultimate dream to peacefully parent children of our own. However, as a result of my "lost-time" I am in a place right now with very little community. I also no longer want to make any compromises with my interactions with people. I hold back with everyone I know, mostly out of necessity. Of course, I am a stereotypical introvert, but I am attempting to do something quite different and out of the norm today by reaching out and expressing some needs and preferences . I need rational people in my life. People who enjoy talking about the things that actually matter, saving me from a slow death of drowning by trivial detail. If you relate to the sentiments expressed here I would love to hear from you. Sincerely, Louise