CygniAustralis

I think we need to look at this from a biological perspective, which I feel has been largely ignored. Pregnancy, childbirth and childrearing are INCREDIBLY resource consuming for women. We aren't like other mammals, who have multiple offspring at once; we gestate for 9 long, miserable months before experiencing excruciating pain to deliver a baby that will be fully dependent upon us for survival for several years. Factor in feeding every 1.5 to 3 hours for at least six months, healing from vaginal birth or c-section, bleeding, post-partum depression and a lack of sleep, and you have to understand, at least on some level, why having multiple children is not the most endearing prospect to a lot of women, even conservative women. My mom consumed nothing but grape juice for 5 months straight because she couldn't keep anything else down and was violently sick multiple times a day until her 6th month. I knew my pregnancy would be difficult, yet here I am, 34 weeks pregnant. I've lost 35+ pounds, and have not gained a single pound in fat back since January. I've had morning sickness all but 6 weeks of my pregnancy. Add migraines and severe food aversion to the mix, as well as a 9 week healing from a broken ankle, and I can sincerely say that I'd be very hesitant to ever try and have another child. It is physically exhausting, draining and permanently damages your body. Am I saying my baby and rearing my child are not worth the struggle? No, of course not. But you have to understand how much a woman sacrifices biologically and mentally to gestate, birth and raise even a single child. And I didn't even have a job throughout this pregnancy; I can't imagine trying to work my previous nursing home job with the way I've suffered through this pregnancy. If we want our women to have more children, we need to change the way we approach pregnancy, birth and motherhood. Drastically. I can honestly say that there is no possible way I personally could balance work and childrearing. It would be literally impossible. For many women, I believe this is also the case. Women force themselves to work while pregnant and work while childrearing because our society tells us that this dichotomy is the only way for women to be empowered. That's nonsense. We need to bring back stay-at-home motherhood if we want more children to be brought into our world. And we also cannot expect women to look perfect, act delightful and happy and carefree and be attentive to everyone else's needs while dealing with the difficulties of pregnancy. That too is impossible.

I think women who have an attraction to these types of men mistake protective instinct with violent behavior.

A couple of things first: 1). Women cannot experience male circumcision, just like men cannot experience birth, and so her views and perspective must always be seen within the context of there being a wall between her and you in terms of absolute understanding. The most important part is that she is willing to listen to your perspective, take your word as having greater weight than her own simply out of a lack of experience on her part, and being willing to shape her views in accordance with any logical and reasonable argument you present. 2). Presenting your views to someone who cannot, truly, understand your perspective simply out of biological difference takes quite a bit of finesse. Male or female, we have to tread carefully. You cannot expect her to understand the emotional turmoil male circumcision had on you, and so you should not take her lack of outrage as a lack of moral objection to the practice. Don't mix empathy and sympathy with one another. To empathize with a person is to truly understand the feelings and experiences of another. To sympathize is to often feel sorrow or pity without the emotional attachment on a person's circumstances. You cannot empathize with a murderer who killed his wife because she cheated on him if you believe murder is wrong (unless, of course, you murdered your wife for cheating on you); but you can sympathize with his motivations, wrong as they are. So please keep that in mind. Do not word your sentences in an accusatory manner; it will most certainly cause her to withdraw. Be patient with her. Do not put an unreasonable time limit on her. Let her absorb both her own findings and your opinion before making any decisions. You would want the same for yourself; do it for her. In many cases, an individual simply has never thought of the subject and needs time to immerse themselves in the facts and evidence as well as the anecdotal and personal before making a decision on where they stand. People don't change overnight; neither do beliefs.

I'm not sure if any of you have read this article, but I was wondering what your opinions on this are. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4733400/Will-granddaughter-pay-price-fight-equality.html#ixzz4oQ6OkFn4

Late in reply again, sorry! I think I understand what you're saying. I should've mentioned in my original post that my MIL comes to me very often to complain, and often relies upon me to get her out of the house so as to avoid being stuck at home all day. I have her perspective, as well as her son's (my husband) and her daughter's on the situation, but I've never received her husband's perspective, but that's simply because he'll never admit to an issue being present. In my interactions with my MIL I try to stay as neutral as possible, but I do try to explain some of his behaviors through a psychological lens (I have a degree in psychology) without being outright accusing and without tearing him down needlessly. I do continue to feel frustrated because on one hand my MIL is very viscerally aware of the issue but at the same time suppressing that truth mentally in order to, I believe, avoid some of the mental/emotional anguish and to stave off conflict. I continue to see my FIL as undeserving of his title of husband, but I would never use such language in conversation with her or any other member of the family. I'm still conflicted on how to approach this issue. Thank you!

I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses to this post, so maybe I'm missing some important points, but I thought I'd just throw my 2 cents in. You don't need a spouse to keep a clean house, or to take care of your non-financial needs, but then again a wife is much more than a housekeeper. She is meant to provide support, emotional nourishment, and physical intimacy as well. So while I would say that the MGTOW lifestyle is somewhat sustainable (there will always be men who forego marriage/relationships with women), it's probably not going to meet all of your needs. With that being said, I can understand how enticing the MGTOW lifestyle may be to a lot of men out there. There aren't a lot of high quality women—and I'm not even touching on appearance. I mean in terms of manners, behavior, treatment of others and overall attitude. My husband and I are the only couple in our massive circle of acquaintances that is married, in a stable monogamous relationship and having a child within marriage. With all the loving patience we can muster, we observe and oftentimes endure (in the case of my husband's coworkers) inappropriate, slutty and childish behavior from women who can't seem to stop getting pregnant out of wedlock, engage in abusive behavior towards their male "partners", drink/smoke excessively, flirt shamelessly with countless men and overall act brutish and uncivilized. I do not know ANY WOMAN in my town that I would even slightly consider to be a good choice for a partner, and I feel bad for a lot of the hard-working young men in my community who sometimes work 2-3 jobs and become punching bags for crazy women they feel roped into dating (the dating pool here is shallow, I'll tell you that). There ARE good women out there, but they're becoming increasingly difficult to find. Feminism and leftism has so greatly penetrated every facet of our society that finding a woman who has not been indoctrinated into it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. You want a woman of virtue and value? Good luck. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try your hardest to find that perfect woman, but it's a difficult quest and I sympathize. My own gender makes me look bad, and that greatly frustrates me. This is coming from a conservative Christian wife. I don't consider myself attractive, and I'm overweight (though I've lost 30+ pounds in pregnancy) but I would gladly keep the body I'm in if it meant avoiding turning into a feminist or the like.

So this might be a bit long, but I'm having an issue with my in-laws that is drastically effecting relationships all around, and I'm not sure at this point what to do except reach out to others who may have some insight into how to address this issue. My mother-in-law and I both subscribe to traditional gender roles, but our outcomes are drastically different. For me, my willful and eager submission and respect for my husband results in affection, emotional/spiritual nourishment and a mutual respect and honor (within the confines of our roles, of course). In my mother-in-law's case, it results in her being taken advantage of. My father-in-law, for at least the past three years, has done nothing—and I mean nothing. He has no job, contributes absolutely zero to their finances, and shutters himself in his office all day, hardly interacting with his wife at all. He expects food on the table, his clothes washed, and his sexual needs taken care of, but provides absolutely nothing for his wife, who has severe breathing problems and works herself to the bone in and out of the home to provide for him. He is absolutely thankless and cares nothing for her needs or her health, choosing to be a miser who hoards every penny he hasn't earned instead of investing in his wife's deteriorating health. He refuses to help around the house or take care of himself in almost any way. Yet he continues to believe he is the head of the household, can determine what his wife does/how she spends their money, and puts his needs above hers in almost every case. I'm so grateful and so thankful that his son is the exact opposite. My husband works two jobs, contributing 95% to our finances (I'm a housekeeper who makes about $200 a month, so I contribute a small amount), pays our bills and keeps a roof over our head, all the while respecting my needs and putting others above himself. He lives to serve others and does so exhaustively. He has never demanded I do anything for him simply because he can, and has never obstinately refused one of my requests out of selfish pride or a desire to put himself above me. I never feel as if I do not matter, as if my health and my needs are of no consequence, and I never feel as if my husband is purposefully out to hurt me or put me below him simply because I'm his wife. The same can't be said of my MIL. My MIL has been somewhat in purposeful denial of the way her husband treats her. Everyone else around her has made gentle and well-meaning observations to her about the state of her marriage, but she has responded by blaming herself for her husband's behavior. I've tried to interject examples of my husband's behavior into our conversations to give her an idea of how a true godly marriage between man and woman is meant to function, but it hasn't done much good. The problem is, my MIL is close to her breaking point. She is working grueling hours, coming home and cooking and cleaning, and being expected to provide sexual favors to a man who refuses in every way to help her even one iota. Sometimes she can barely move, is in constant pain and when her lungs shut down she is always in danger of suffocating. As her breathing problems and other physical ailments get progressively and obviously worse, I can't help but feel furiously helpless. I don't know what to say to help her wake up. She is literally working herself to death. And I'm not sure how else to help her. Her relationship with her husband is one of enslavement. While I respect the male role as head of the household, in my opinion my FIL does not deserve this title. He is killing his wife, and I do not know what to do or say to help her wake up to the reality of her situation. I'm not sure what I'm asking for; advice, help, something. I do not want to see my MIL die in servitude to an ungrateful, slothful and vindictive man.

Hi there! Sorry for the extremely late reply. I was in college at the time, when I was seeking a partner, and I can say that I had difficulty in two places: 1) I received no male attention on campus and 2) most of the guys in the college atmosphere weren't the type of man I was looking for. I'll be honest, I'm DEFINITELY not the most attractive woman, I'd say I'm plain at best, and I am "plus size" so I figured for me it would be best to look online, that way I would hopefully increase the likelihood of finding someone. Of course it took a lot of filtering to find the right partner, but you have to do that in person as well. But I would say my partner is the right person for me, and if I hadn't looked online I wouldn't have found him. So for me, online "dating" was the best option. It may not be the same for you. What I meant was, the right girl will be attracted by who you are as a person and she will come to you willingly. She won't require an outlandish amount of pursuit, won't need to be swooned with gifts and money, and she'll stick by your side, through thick and thin.

I found my husband on a dating website. Sketchy, I know, and probably not the best decision in hindsight, but I've been with him five years (got married in 2016), and I'm 4 months pregnant with our first child. I found a gem amongst the rocks, so to say. Hard-working Christian man, fantastic provider, intelligent and disciplined. He'll be a military police officer come June. The key is to know exactly what you want, and refuse to make concessions on any of those wants, no matter how appealing the other person may be in other aspects. Never compromise on your morals. Do not pursue a woman sexually before proper courtship/dating and marriage. The right girl is very hard to find in today's world, but there are girls who should fit your needs if you're willing to search for her. She could be anywhere so keep your eyes open, but you'll be better off emotionally if you don't constantly pursue. Let the girl come to you. I'm sorry if this isn't very helpful.

I suppose I'd like to see a really good argument for miscegenation. I think the unique cultures, traditions and religious practices of single-race populations should be preserved. Mixing races has always seemed to me to be more of a net negative than a net positive. Is that wrong? I've actually been ridiculed by people for choosing a man of my own race. I was baffled, still am.

I don't think anyone considers these tasks "devalued" simply because they're feminine. They're in a different sphere. I'd also like to see how they're comparing domestic tasks to workforce tasks; how can you equate them financially/monetarily to one another? The article didn't even attempt to explain this, so I'm assuming they have no idea. The article also didn't explain what makes men "lazy" and "foolish", so I'm not sure what the title was meant to do other than be clickbait.

You'll never believe this: we met on a free online dating site in 2013. Try to swallow that, haha. It is a voluntary system, that's true. We both entered into our marriage willfully, but with high expectations of each other. We set the groundwork before we were wed so that we had a strong foundation to fall back on after our marriage. We're nearing our two-year anniversary and things just keep getting better. I'm most definitely proud to be my husband's wife. He chose me, despite all my flaws, to be his life partner. It's my duty to live up to those expectations. Of course I falter, and may not be the best I can be, but both of us experience that from time-to-time and as spouses we build each other up instead of tear each other down. I understand that satisfaction in marriage comes from serving one another (although the roles are different for men and women, obviously) so I find satisfaction and purpose in pleasing him. He must feel the same way in a sense, otherwise he wouldn't support me and love me as his wife. I come from probably one of the worst places: Phoenix. Very liberal. I grew up around some of the most arrogant people you can imagine. As soon as I turned 18 I turned tail and ran to South Dakota. Much more conservative. Maybe, in a sense, I'm an oddball. I don't know a lot of women who are like me. Most are serial daters, and a large portion of them are single mothers to multiple children from different fathers. They're not good role models, but they sure do motivate me to be better. I think, in a sense, women need to be subdued by good, intelligent men. Women are too wild, emotional and selfish to be out on their own. Marriage is a good way to "tame" us.

Hi there! Thank you for actually responding to me. I appreciate that! Our marriage dynamic is slightly different than your assumption, I believe. I am a housemaker; I keep the house in order and cook and clean for my husband, and he provides the financial support by working outside the home. But our relationship is very close; we work as a team, although our roles are different, obviously. Being his "property" does not reduce my value as a person or absolve me of self-responsibility; instead, I believes it gives me a certain dignity, and my husband is always respectful and kind to me in his authority. I'm at a loss as to how to better explain it; our relationship is very private, and the sphere we've created for ourselves and our growing family (I'm 8 weeks pregnant) is closed off to the influence of the secular world in many respects. I suppose the best way to describe it is the Christian hierarchy of the family: God at the top, man below god, woman below man, and children below woman. Of course, there's no abuse, and no unfair imbalance of power, at least in my opinion. I'm sufficiently intelligent and mature, no doubt. But my satisfaction in life comes from being submissive to my husband, and oftentimes that includes giving up on certain pursuits, like having a "successful" career. I utilize my intelligence in other ways and feel enriched by the life I've chosen. Meeting my husband's emotional and sexual needs are fulfilling to me, and he does the same for me. Deferring to him is almost spiritual for me; it's a satisfaction I can't easily explain. I'm actually a year and a month older than him (I'm 24, he's 23), but our age difference isn't an determining factor in how we interact with one another.

This is really interesting to me, but I think it relies upon the institution of marriage in order to become a viable discussion. When you marry a man you technically become "property" to him. Your physical self becomes his and his alone. That's how marriage should be. Of course if you marry someone, you should be expected to stay monogamous, whether you are a man or a woman. But you would be surprised how many women I know that are married who are shocked that their husbands have expectations of them. Of course he does. You married him, your time and body are his to use, respectfully of course. I can tell you nightmarish stories of female coworkers who laugh about using the denial of sex as a tool for manipulation, and how they enjoy watching their husbands beg for sexual intimacy. Gross. Having sex isn't difficult and shouldn't be a chore; the man typically does more work than the woman does. If you respect and love your spouse you submit willingly to their sexual needs, even if you're tired or in a bad mood. I just can't imagine ever denying my husband sexual intimacy, when he provides so much for me: protection, safety, a roof over my head, love and affection. It's the least I can do for him. I see so many women using marriage as a means to get resources without ever having to give in return. That needs to stop. I think I'm happiest when my husband has the final say in my decision-making. I ask his opinion on just about everything I do. I always tell him where I'm going and why. I usually think of him first before I do or say anything, simply because he's the head of our household and his opinion and perspective matter more to me than my own scatterbrained ideas. I tend to be impulsively emotional, but my husband is unyielding and rational. He soothes me and puts me in my place, and I need that. All women need that. When I told my boss recently that I had needed my husband's permission to accept my job offer, she looked at me like I was crazy. But it's what he thinks is best for the two of us that matters to me, not my own "agency". Sure, I have my own thoughts and beliefs and impulses, and I'm intelligent enough, but in the confines of the marriage I willingly participated in, there's a hierarchy. The husband at the head, and the wife beneath him. I find no issue with that. So yes, I think women as "property" is in itself a good idea, if not a rational one. It just seems more viable in the context of a legal/spiritual pact or covenant, like marriage.