Hello everyone

[Moriartis]

Hey everybody,

My name is Jeremy and I've recently converted from Socialism(read: Democrat). I've posted an incredibly long-winded story about my conversion experience in the appropriate forum if anyone wants to know more about me.

It's good to be here.

[Randsrazor]

Hi, I'm new to the forums myself. It is very comforting to know that you(ex-democrat) exist. I think that all democratish people will suddenly flip to our side like a light switch once we finish the philosophy.

[Moriartis]

Yeah, I would like to think that is true, but having been one a couple years ago it took me finding out about a lot of criminal behavior in the government(CIA, FBI and virtually every other agency) that was backed by a LOT of hard evidence before I would even consider questioning my own beliefs. Even then, it took a couple years worth of researching a few hours a day in order to really dissolve those false beliefs.

The problem with lefties is that they are indoctrinated into an ideology that is very emotionally loaded with Marxist rhetoric(rich vs. poor, etc.) and then told a bunch of lies as to how anyone who disagrees with them is a racist, sexist, hates the poor, etc. which is backed by cherry-picked quotes from ignorant Republicans that don't even really believe what they are saying. I wish I shared your optimism.

For me, the way to get through to me and show me I was in the Matrix was to show me how warlike and corporate the Democrats were. When I was really confronted with that evidence it made it hard to justify my politics. So perhaps it's easier to get through to the left than it feels like. I lost a "friendship" with a lefty because of my conversion. He compared me to "puppy killing grunts" because I was in the Coast Guard while simultaneously calling me an ignorant racist because I had a problem with Obama's "wise, ethical and legal" drone strikes. I think that experience may have made me rather negative to the idea of converting people. But to be fair, I have converted a friend who was a lefty since then, so perhaps I am being irrational.

[Randsrazor]

Facinating. Thanks for sharing.

I have a really hard time getting through to leftists since their belief(faith) in government is akin to a christian's belief in Christ except that government is far more concrete and can be controlled to some degree! The power of the one ring as Stef calls it. Pointing that out to them of course enrages both christians and leftists haha. Infiltrating and corrupting their ideology(for the good of course) still leaves them unthinking though. If we can just turn some unknown percentage of them into level 3 philosophers(I just made that up) like yourself I think the rest would flip like a switch even if they don't know why. I hope that explains my hope.

[Moriartis]

Yeah, I too have a hard time. "The will of the people" is the new "God" and Democracy is the new Theocracy, and just as devout. I have had some luck with explaining the non-aggression principle and using the "against me" argument. Explaining the difference between Corporatism and Capitalism and showing them the corrupting evil of lobbying also helps a lot, because the left is incredibly ignorant about economics, if you can show them that it's actually fairly simple to understand it helps them to realize that their ideology is based on false premises, especially when you show them that you also have a hatred for Corporations, as that is a basic premise of their economic religion. Basically, anytime you can get them to realize that you know more about the topic than they do, and that you are aware of and "respect" where their views are coming from, there is a chance that they will concede ground and that you may get through to them.

I'm also in luck because I'm a gamer geek and all of my friends and acquiantances are Lord of the Rings nuts, so when I show them the analogy and Tolkien's politics, it speaks volumes to them in a way no political argument could.

Also, showing them the evolution of governments have been helpful. How they started off as tyrants raping and pillaging and then decided to make their crimes reoccuring and convince their victims that they aren't victims and that the crimes are necessary. This opens them up to the "tax farm" analogy that they would otherwise scoff at and reject outright.

Ultimately I think the key is finding a way of reaching common ground about what about the current system is obviously evil(corporations, Republicans, etc.) and then showing them how the system actually works so they see that the reason it's evil is because of the government and not in spite of it. Play off of their inherent hatred of Corporatism, Republicans and greed and show them that a system of government will always allow those things to rule over the peaceful. I think I'm going to put up a thread about converting the lefties and share some of my thoughts. Who knows, maybe it'll help someone.

[ribuck]

Basically, anytime you can get them to realize that you ... are aware of and "respect" where their views are coming from, there is a chance that ... you may get through to them.

As Jeffrey Tucker likes to point out, statists want much the same things in their lives as we do: peace, friends, food on their family's table, a satisfying and enjoyable job, shelter, security, etc. The only difference is that they don't (yet) realise the most moral and most effective way to achieve those goals.

[Moriartis]

Oh, absolutely. I don't think there's too much difference in people and what they want. I think the main difference is what they are willing to allow and overlook in order to achieve those things. There is also a strong religious component to it. The culture is very uncomfortable with certain kinds of questions, particularly anarchist leaning ones. Any attempt at critical thinking is only allowed as long as the thoughts are not in reference to sacredly held beliefs, in which case there is a lot of hostility. It's all about bringing up the ideas in a way that is calm, open and inviting. Non-judgmental.