Greetings! I am a statist nihilist.

[ceruleanhansen]

But you have been nice to me, and I will tell you a secret in return: I do not feel like I have meaningful self knowledge. And although I do want it, I know that the only reason I want it is because I feel like it would give me more power to manipulate others. This board has received me kindly and in return I am giving my honesty, which is something I almost never do (and certainly never do without a psuedonym to hide behind).

[TruthahnDerRuin]

Being honest is good. Do you want to manipulate as a means to an end or in and of itself?

[ceruleanhansen]

 

Being honest is good. Do you want to manipulate as a means to an end or in and of itself?

 

Means to an end. I manipulate others to to benefit myself. If I benefit more from being honest, I am honest. I don't particularly prefer one or the other (well, except that being manipulative is good practice so I like to improve my ability, and being honest puts me at less risk of being caught defrauding someone, so there are benefits to either approach outside of merely accomplishing a specific goal).

[Guest NateC]

 

But you have been nice to me...

 

 

 

I manipulate others to to benefit myself.

 

So you're the schoolyard bully on a philosophy forum.

[Rick Horton]

 

 

But you have been nice to me...

 

 

 

I manipulate others to to benefit myself.

 

So you're the schoolyard bully on a philosophy forum.

 

This isn't a school yard, and we're all growed up, so I don't think calling him a bully is cool, or called for. 

[ceruleanhansen]

 

 

But you have been nice to me...

 

 

 

I manipulate others to to benefit myself.

 

So you're the schoolyard bully on a philosophy forum.

 

I was never that type. Outright coercion is usually not a desirable solution to problems. Not because it is immoral, but because the backlash is too intense and hard to control. Using force is not manipulative exactly. A manipulator convinces his victims that he is acting in their interest, that he loves them, and that they should love him too. I do not think I was disrespectful in my post, so what is the point of the name calling?

[Rick Horton]

 

 

 

But you have been nice to me...

 

 

 

I manipulate others to to benefit myself.

 

So you're the schoolyard bully on a philosophy forum.

 

I was never that type. Outright coercion is usually not a desirable solution to problems. Not because it is immoral, but because the backlash is too intense and hard to control. Using force is not manipulative exactly. A manipulator convinces his victims that he is acting in their interest, that he loves them, and that they should love him too. I do not think I was disrespectful in my post, so what is the point of the name calling?

 

Don't mind him. He's always like that...

[yurface]

I, too, would describe myself as a nihilist and statist of sorts, however, I don't really subscribe to the Stirnerite-esque egoism you seem to. Manipulating other people seems like a bad thing to do however, unfortunately, I can't  find any philsophical basis for denouncing it.  The best I can do is say "I don't like it" which is, obviously, nothing more than crass emotivism.

 

[Guest NateC]

 

I was never that type. Outright
coercion is usually not a desirable solution to problems. Not because it
is immoral, but because the backlash is too intense and hard to
control. Using force is not manipulative exactly. A manipulator
convinces his victims that he is acting in their interest, that he loves
them, and that they should love him too. I do not think I was
disrespectful in my post, so what is the point of the name calling?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Manipulation is emotional coercion and is abuse.

 

 

This isn't a school yard, and we're all growed up, so I don't think calling him a bully is cool, or called for. 

 

Quite right. Let me be more precise..."a grown-up bully on a philosophy forum"

 

Don't mind him. He's always like that...

 

Am I the "passive aggressive little fuck head..." you called me in the other thread?

 

[LovePrevails]

 

But you have been nice to me, and I will tell you a secret in return: I do not feel like I have meaningful self knowledge. And although I do want it, I know that the only reason I want it is because I feel like it would give me more power to manipulate others. This board has received me kindly and in return I am giving my honesty, which is something I almost never do (and certainly never do without a psuedonym to hide behind).

 

what is your reasoning behind being a nihilist?

 

 

 

Being honest is good. Do you want to manipulate as a means to an end or in and of itself?

 

Means to an end. I manipulate others to to benefit myself. If I
benefit more from being honest, I am honest. I don't particularly prefer
one or the other (well, except that being manipulative is good practice
so I like to improve my ability, and being honest puts me at less risk
of being caught defrauding someone, so there are benefits to either
approach outside of merely accomplishing a specific goal).

 

Have you ever experienced bliss from being there for someone else only to feel flattered when they thanked you because if anything you were thankful to them for sharing themselves with you?

[Arius]

I do not feel like I have meaningful self knowledge. And although I do want it, I know that the only reason I want it is because I feel like it would give me more power to manipulate others.

That's a statement of self-knowledge...you know why you want to know something, sort of.  You see, there is no particular reason why you must behave in any specific way.  That's the implication of "no involuntary, positive moral obligations".  Every belief you hold, every behavior you demonstrate, all of it is for some set of reasons which are contained entirely within you.  Knowing those reasons, understanding your own motivations...as you say, your own "evolution", that's self-knowledge.

The assumption I make from what's written is that you feel a need for power over others.  I'd like to make a deal: I will offer you the courtesy of not attempting to manipulate you, if you choose to return the favor.  I know that's a lot to ask, as I'm requesting you value my need over your own.  However, I can't participate if it's all just a power struggle.  I am very interested in participating if it's a search for what is true.  I don't believe it is possible to do both at the same time.

 

 

[TruthahnDerRuin]

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

[Rick Horton]

 

 

I was never that type. Outright
coercion is usually not a desirable solution to problems. Not because it
is immoral, but because the backlash is too intense and hard to
control. Using force is not manipulative exactly. A manipulator
convinces his victims that he is acting in their interest, that he loves
them, and that they should love him too. I do not think I was
disrespectful in my post, so what is the point of the name calling?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Manipulation is emotional coercion and is abuse.

 

 

This isn't a school yard, and we're all growed up, so I don't think calling him a bully is cool, or called for. 

 

Quite right. Let me be more precise..."a grown-up bully on a philosophy forum"

 

Don't mind him. He's always like that...

 

Am I the "passive aggressive little fuck head..." you called me in the other thread?

 

 

You call everything abuse.

[ceruleanhansen]

 

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

 

I have considered that my way of thinking is only a veil for behavior that actually prevents me from doing things that would make me more satisfied.

[ceruleanhansen]

 

 I'd like to make a deal: I will offer you the courtesy of not attempting to manipulate you, if you choose to return the favor.

 

I came here to understand myself. The things I'd like to get from this place pretty much require me to be open and honest about myself, so manipulation would not really benefit me here. Deal.

[Arius]

[]

What can I do to benefit your search for self-knowledge?

I should add, in my experience self-knowledge doesn't actually help in controlling others.  It does exactly the opposite.  It makes the holder of such knowledge more difficult for others to control.  For example, in the past, people have tried to dictate "right" behaviors to me by shaming me into conformance.  I have come to understand that shame is predominately used as a tool of control.  To this end, whenever I feel an upwelling of shame, I evaluate the reason for the feeling.  If the feeling is a conditioned response to some familiar social stimulus (i.e. another person telling me I'm somehow inferior to them by failing to perform according to their expectations), I reject the felling.  Because of my awareness of the behavioral conditioning I have, I can reject the effects of that conditioning.  I cannot be shamed into compliance.  I suspect that, if everyone understood themselves, no one could control anyone else...  It would be anarchy.

[Rick Horton]

 

/emoticons/emotion-2.gif

What can I do to benefit your search for self-knowledge?

I should add, in my experience self-knowledge doesn't actually help in controlling others.  It does exactly the opposite.  It makes the holder of such knowledge more difficult for others to control.  For example, in the past, people have tried to dictate "right" behaviors to me by shaming me into conformance.  I have come to understand that shame is predominately used as a tool of control.  To this end, whenever I feel an upwelling of shame, I evaluate the reason for the feeling.  If the feeling is a conditioned response to some familiar social stimulus (i.e. another person telling me I'm somehow inferior to them by failing to perform according to their expectations), I reject the felling.  Because of my awareness of the behavioral conditioning I have, I can reject the effects of that conditioning.  I cannot be shamed into compliance.  I suspect that, if everyone understood themselves, no one could control anyone else...  It would be anarchy.

 

Shame is not the only way to control people. There has never been anarchy. As long as people aren't equal there will never be.

[Nathan T_ Freeman]

 

 

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

 

I have considered that my way of thinking is only a veil for behavior that actually prevents me from doing things that would make me more satisfied.

 

And what was your conclusion?

[TruthahnDerRuin]

 

 

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

 

I have considered that my way of thinking is only a veil for behavior that actually prevents me from doing things that would make me more satisfied.

 

I think this response is quite astute. The reason I seek self-knowledge is to avoid self-destructive behavior. Even though you said that you think you will be more manipulative, I think that this is self-destructive so the knowledge you are seeking will lead to ending this behavior.

[ceruleanhansen]

 

/emoticons/emotion-2.gif

What can I do to benefit your search for self-knowledge?

I should add, in my experience self-knowledge doesn't actually help in controlling others.  It does exactly the opposite.  It makes the holder of such knowledge more difficult for others to control.  For example, in the past, people have tried to dictate "right" behaviors to me by shaming me into conformance.  I have come to understand that shame is predominately used as a tool of control.  To this end, whenever I feel an upwelling of shame, I evaluate the reason for the feeling.  If the feeling is a conditioned response to some familiar social stimulus (i.e. another person telling me I'm somehow inferior to them by failing to perform according to their expectations), I reject the felling.  Because of my awareness of the behavioral conditioning I have, I can reject the effects of that conditioning.  I cannot be shamed into compliance.  I suspect that, if everyone understood themselves, no one could control anyone else...  It would be anarchy.

 

A part of effectively controlling others is not being controlled yourself. Often I see that manipulators seem to also be the easiest to manipulate, but that could be the toupee effect (that is, the people who I can see are manipulators are probably the worst manipulators). I also hope that by better understanding myself, I will be more able to understand others, allowing me to control them more effectively.

[ceruleanhansen]

 

 

 

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

 

I have considered that my way of thinking is only a veil for behavior that actually prevents me from doing things that would make me more satisfied.

 

And what was your conclusion?

 

Maximized power will make me happier as long as it is not too overwhelmingly guilty. The immorality of coercion does not seem to be a fundamental psychological moral source, and it is not a part of my culture. Thus, culturally approved uses of violence should not be problematic. I am careful with emotional "evil" because my training will kick in and I will innevitably feel guilty. I try to minimize this, but it is still a part of me to some extent.

[ceruleanhansen]

 

 

 

I will make a simple point that you have probably already considered (I do not want to insult your intelligence). But it is possible that what you will learn about yourself will make you stop wanting to manipulating people.

 

I have considered that my way of thinking is only a veil for behavior that actually prevents me from doing things that would make me more satisfied.

 

I think this response is quite astute. The reason I seek self-knowledge is to avoid self-destructive behavior. Even though you said that you think you will be more manipulative, I think that this is self-destructive so the knowledge you are seeking will lead to ending this behavior.

 

How is it self destructive?

[Robert Degeer]

Self destruction is often used loosely in moral circles that i've seen. If i was to say that manipulating others was self destruction, it would entail the hollowing out of others and ultimately the hollowing of myself. For if all around me were just shells of my desire, i would have nothing to feel in interpersonal-contact that i could not have found in myself, which is now exhausted through the torture of others. It's certainly a stretch to call any-or all such behaviour as self destructive but this best sums up my experience of trying to manipulate others to be moral and aware. I cannot call it scientific, though there could be principles im unaware of that explains it.