Hello from California

[TommyK]

Hello, all.

I am not particularly good at talking about myself, but I'll share a little bit of my journey to this board.

I identified as a libertarian because of the talk radio host Brian Wilson in my early college years. I was a member of the Cal (Berkeley) Libertarians in college. I interned at the Cato Institute when I was in college for a semester. Subscribed to Reason magazine, etc.

Then I read For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard in grad school. While I remember thinking it didn't answer all my questions, it was the closest I had ever come to accepting the possibility of a society without a State.

After that I was pretty much on board with market-anarchism. I toyed with voting for a little while after that, especially in the 2008 Republican primary so I could vote for Ron Paul, and then against Prop 8 (anti-gay marriage), and then for Prop 19 (pot legalization). I didn't vote in the 2012 election and will not ever vote again. I've woken up fully.

I discovered FDR about six months ago, I think because of an interview Stephan did with ReasonTV. I really appreciate how well-put his arguments are. I think I've been struggling for most of my adult life for a consistent philosophy to apply to my world-view. The way Stephan reasons and is able to bring everything back to non-agression wins every time for me.

I have yet to read his books, but I am eager to find the time for UPB from what I've heard about it on the podcasts. I probably would benefit from reading Real-Time Relationships as well.

My childhood was as normal (in a good way) as it could have been. My parents are good people, as are my sisters and grandparents. I was raised Catholic (but never really threatened with damnation), and I always had a healthy dose of skepticism. My family seemed to go to church simply because that was what they always had done and known. I finally concluded I was an atheist in college while getting a degree in medieval history.

One thing I've been thinking about in the last few weeks is whether or not I should proactively engage my family (who I don't see very often, as they all live six hours away) in discussions of my anarchism and moreso my atheism. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be surprised by my anarchism, but I think my mom especially would be disturbed by me openly telling her of my atheism. I think it would only upset her and why would I want to that? Our relationship is fine and I don't think the religion in my childhood was abusive in any way to me. I'm happy to go on ignoring the subject.

I'm excited to join this community and to meet and communicate with like-minded people!

(I guess I did have a lot to write after all.)

Tommy

[Demitri]

Hi Tommy!

Welcome. I'm new to the FDR forums, but thought I'd chime in on my thoughts about engaging family in discusssions of anarchism and atheism; especially a religious family.

I have taken a very long and slow approach to engaging my family. Instead of outright challenging them, I prefer to insert lots of small doubt-creating lines of logic into my conversations attached to key prashes like, "... don'tcha think?" or "Do you ever wonder why ..." or "Doesn't it seem odd to you..."
These key phrases are generally non-confrontational phrases that are meant to go directly to their subconscious and allow them to ponder whatever else you have attached to them. When it comes to religion, there's plenty of contradictions to use as the "meat" of these. Any answer they give is fine; I simply nod and say something noncomittal. Then I drop it.

After I've done that for a long while, they rather get used to this stuff from me, and their mind has had some time to ponder those things. When I'm ready to approach them about being an atheist, I preface the chat by talking with them about how "stuff in the world just doesn't make sense", and begin with statist stuff (no shortage of nonsensical stuff there). Then I'll lead into religion as if it had just come to mind as one of the examples that doesn't make sense. I have found that it helps to elicit their help in "not becoming an atheist". If I make it clear that I simply can't accept anything that doesn't make rational and logical sense, or that doesn't have empirical evidence, and blame that outlook on the lies around us everyday, then they understand where I am coming from in that.

Next I direct the scrutiny to the question of "how am I supposed to believe the people who wrote the bible?"; followed by all the immoral things in the bible (such as what Stefan links to HERE and HERE). This opens the discussion in a way that naturally leads them in search of answers (presumably to help you), instead of giving them arguments to refute. The idea is to elicit their help instead of giving anything to fight against.

This approach can take a very long time, and is a process of growth. However, it does allow you to be open about your doubts concerning their religion (as an example).
If your family would be appalled at the label of "atheist" or "anarchist", then don't use those labels until they have expressed the thoughts and ideas of those things themselves. If they do, then simply point it out at that time as tho you have just discovered the "real definition" of those words, and are sharing with them.

Hope you can use some of this.
Cheers!

[TommyK]

Thanks for your reply, Demitri!

I really appreciate your thoughts. What you wrote makes a lot of sense and I do kind of think this is the way I approach things—by openly expressing skepticism when religious claims are made about things. I usually am not hostile and so they may or may not take my thoughts into consideration. They are used to it from me, but I also think that they just think my point of view is way out there.

It does help that I studied a lot of the theology in college within the context of medieval history, so they do take that seriously.

Anyway, I'm grateful for your reply.

Tommy

[Demitri]

You're quite welcome.

I truly hope you are able to find a way to express the things that matter to you without causing too many problems.
It seems you have a positive relationship with your family and would like to keep it that way while allowing them to get to know you more.
I think that's awesome, and I believe you'll figure out a way to do that if you want to.

In my opinion, your family being used to your view as "way out there" actually works in your favor.
It allows you the freedom to say some things that might not otherwise be said without much confrontation. Subtlety has a strength all it's own.

This world (and especially the US, where I live) is steeped in the idea that confrontation is a good way (some think it's the best way) to deal with things.
I think there's a time and a place for outright confrontation, but that most things are best dealt with thru subtlety.
Gauging from what you said above, I think you would be very good at using subtlety; especially if you practice it.

I think medieval history is pretty awesome. What's your favorite part?
Cheers!
~Demitri