Two More Resources

[Stefan]

Hi All!

 

I have done a lot of exploring, thinking, reading resources on both sides, and testing, and I have been convinced that atheism is true. This is where I got my start.

 

Perhaps this isn't surprising to a community of skeptics (and indeed, things seem so much clearer now), but I was in pretty deep.If you compare religion to drugs, when I hear most former believers' stories compared to mine, it is like I was snorting cocaine and heroin every day in amounts that would give someone who didn't have a tolerance an OD, and gone off that hearing people talk about how they tried marijuana a few times and managed to quit. Yes, both were addictions, and it's a good idea to get off both, but the degree doesn't even compare when you're talking about serious believers compared to nominal Christians.

 

I lead worship frequently, prophecied, spoke in tongues, heard "words from God", prayed for miraculous healing, read the bible and prayed every day. I was completely surrounded by faithful believers. I still am for the most part, though I am changing that bit by bit.

 

I have even felt a few withdrawal syndromes. But I am staying strong. I plan on putting together a huge "coming out" letter as soon as I am up to it.

 

I just wanted to provide you with two resources that were incredibly helpful to me in making my decision.

 

1. One book I read on the Christian side is "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist". It is probably the best, clearest laid out arguments for a creator God in general and the Christian God in specific, such as they are. There is a genius review, just posted by some guy on the internet that goes through it point by point, and devastates it: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p98.htm2. Another one, if you have charismatic believers who believe in healing like I did, is this documentary, which explains many of the techniques of such healings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JGUFmY9gIE

 

Those and a good amount of more skeptical reading of the Bible were probably the most helpful things in changing my mind.Both of these are I think more effective in that they approach the topic respectfully and with what Christians can see as an "open mind". People listen much better if they feel respected and heard.

 

The God Delusion is a great book, but good luck getting a Christian to read that objectively, unless they've already got their foot in the door like me.

 

This may not work for everyone, but I thought I would share what worked for me in case it helps anyone else out there.

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Stefan (not that one)

 

P.S. I am still looking into secular morality, and I find it to be fascinating. Any recommendations for good works there (aside from UPB)?

[Pepin]

Nice, I always like hearing about rational "conversions" to atheism. I find the "heard words from God" part very interesting, perhaps because in a sense, I don't think it is that crazy.

 

In the model of internal family systems, what Stefan M. calls the mecosystem, the personality is made up of an ecosystem of parts with their own personalities and it is possible for these parts to take the seat of consciousness and to also communicate with you. I hypothesize that when people talk to "God", they are legitimately talking to an entity that is fundamentally separate from themselves, but this entity is simply a part that has taken on the role of "God".

 

Personally, I had one experience in college during a stressful time in my life where "God" began to communicate with me, though not through words. I am not sure what my religious status was at the time, perhaps semi-Christian, but my overly rational brain came to the conclusion that I was over-stressed and tired and that this was a psychological manifestation that is trying to help, and I ignored it and went to bed.

 

I say all this to ask for your opinion on this idea, and to also perhaps get any further explanation or description of your experience with those sorts of events. I find it extremely fascinating.

[Stefan]

I think that is right. Looking back on words given to me and that I received it makes a lot of sense that it was a subconscious part of myself I was accessing. It was always harder for me, as naturally I am more logical (Myers-Briggs type: INTJ), but I had more emotional friends who could access this with more ease, and even see visions of angels and demons and prophetic things as if they were real. There was even a time when we worshipped and most people there saw a "glory cloud" of the holy spirit. Another guy got "drunk in the spirit" and saw all kinds of crazy hallucinatory type stuff. I really believe they genuinely thought they saw these things. Dawkins mentions this a bit in "The God Delusion".With time and practice I was able to access this subconscious more easily. I could still do it now, if I wanted. I don't know if it will be that valuable, but it is at the least interesting. Side note: I can also still speak in "tongues".These words generally had a flair/flavor of the person who received them, which isn't conclusive, but would indicate that it is a part of themselves. For example I once gave a prophecy that someone was being annointed to be like a "private investigator" for God. Sometimes they are able to say things about others general thoughts or emotional states - such as that might be picked up by a subconscious reading non-verbal cues the conscious mind is as aware of.Other confirmaitons come from the fact that there are just a limited number major points in Christianity to talk about. So you can give a word on the fruit of the spirit, and chances are they were recently thinking about that anyway. There's a lot of confirmation bias giving the benefit of the doubt obviously, though words are supposed to be tested in charismatic christianity.I've got all kinds of first and second hand stories of these sorts of things, I wouldn't even know where to start.Hope that helps slake some of your interest, Pepin