Are Europeans to shy because of the dominant socialist view?

[tymophy]

Hi there,

 

This wasn't an actual question, as it was me polling some personal observations.

For the record I'm not interested in a competition between Europe and North-America about which one is more active in fighting tyranny or in enlightening people about freedom, reason and evidence.

 

In fact I sort of taste the same level of general outrage in both regions ( I know subjective me).

But I do see an overwhelming majority of anarchists even libertarians coming from North-America.

Which means that most Europeans either don't know the concept of Libertarianism or that in their minds the current regimes haven't got: The right amount of money or the right people or something..... :S?

 

Now as a frame or reference I've talked about anarchists' ideas in social clubs (indoor football(soccer)), friends, family. And everytime it's almost like they are all tripping over eachother to defend, chime in, apologize for whatever I'm attacking.

 

Now I'm going to project my own feelings/insecurities to all of Europe. But I often found myself sort of waiting, hunkering for what the American freedom/truth organisations are doing.

Which of course means that the bad guys in Europe almost get a free pass and that we are missing the planning/organizational/networking skills that the Americans are amassing.

Not to mention the fact that we can't expect them so safe us in Europe.

 

Personally I've recently found the vonMises institute Holland, so I'm going to check them out.

1But are there more Europeans on this board??

2More Europeans who feel the same way I do??

3Are there any Europeans who know of organisations or businesses who support Libertarian ideas?

 

Now for the introduction:

My Name is Tim, 26 years old, from Holland.

I grew up with no brothers/sisters with my parents. They split up when I was 2 or 3 years old.

My mother, single-home, fairly socialist, spanked me regularly with wooden spoons, sticks etc. from the age of 3 until the age of 11. She became a Christian from when I was 10 or 11, which  I still blame myself for, because we were one of the few people in my mother's side of the family who weren't. I sort of pondered to her why we couldn't go to church?

 

My dad was emotionally pretty distant. He wasn't around from age 2 until age 4. Later on we still weren't close when it came to reallife human things like sex, music, culture whatever.

But we both had the same sense of humor, political views (age 14) conservative and both liked practicality. And my dad never spanked me. He could get confrontational but rarely any yelling.

 

Thanks to Stefan Molyneux' podcasts I now know that depression is very common with abused children. But from the age of 16 I suddenly developed depression. This could also be attributed to my lack of interest in school and my uncertainty of what to do/become with my life.

 

I spend the following 7 years venturing into the jungles of the internet.  Socialism, Conservatism, Satanism, Christianity, Conspiracy Theories, Freemasonry, mysticism, New-age magicism (witches whom worked at starbucks lol).

I looked at it, studied it and became more and more aware of how confused I was.

Until I just gave up and became a natural-minimalist anarchist. Believing that almost all human interaction was evil because of manipulation, all technology and science were there to enslave us (along with all those theories i.e.: evolution) etc. 

 

Don't worry I came around 3 years ago when I saw a video from Stefan Molyneux: Statism is dead part 13.

It was posted on a conspiracy website and since then all those previous ism's left my mind.

I was so excited and relieved that there was someone out there like that. 

And kudos to Stefan for being so incredibly,stupifyingly clear and straightforward.

 

Now I'm working to pick up the pieces of 10 years of brain fungi and child trauma.

This year I'm going for my VWO degree. (It's like highschool, but the highest level that permits entry into college). Only 1 course : Math!

And I'm working out, losing weight, trying to quit smoking (down to 1 a day) and exercising my brain with stefan's podcast and with a helpfull online brain exercise program.(Check out JoeRoganExperience if you want to check the one I'm using; don't know if I can say their name)

 

Anyway  Hi there, looking forward to this experience.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Hey tymophy,

 

I know what feeling you're talking about. When I spent a few years in Europe (mainly in Austria), I got the same idea from the people there. The majority of people I would talk to were definitely miffed about government, money, economy, and "the way things were run", but I don't think I ever heard anyone bring it to the level of libertarianism or anarchism.

 

My guess is that this results from a combination of three factors:

 

First, that historically Europe does not have a tradition of libertarianism, whereas North America does, so we at least still give it lip service (land of the free and home of the brave, right?).

 

Second, the socialism of Europe (at least west of the iron curtain) has the appearance of functionality. At the moment, everyone is happily coddled by the state. "Free" school (university in some countries!), health insurance, child care money, welfare, unemployment, subsidized housing, government-protected jobs, you name it. Hell, in Austria, if a woman gets pregnant and has to leave the workplace, the company is required by law to continue paying the woman while she's at home, during the pregnancy and for the first few months of infancy. My Austrian girlfriend worked for a company with about 30-35 employees that is actively paying six women to stay home with their kids. One of these women has popped out 3 or 4 consecutive kids and has used the company as a free rider the whole time. You have to like socialism in Europe, because if you don't, you're throwing away free money and threatening the rest of the population's free money. To use my girlfriend as an example again, her entire un-retired family is currently on unemployment (parents, cousins, aunts, uncles, you name it) and has been for YEARS, and they all seem to think that the money is magically going to fall out of the sky forever.

 

Consequently, it appears the people of Europe can't do math.

 

Obviously, elements of what I just described exist in the US as well, but there appears to be more of a divide from those feeding the government troughs and those sucking off the teat of the welfare state. In Europe, EVERYONE is on government money at least to some degree.

 

Thirdly, since WWII, Europe hasn't had much do with causing and maintaining catastrophic imperialistic wars like the US has (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.) and doesn't have 750 military bases around the world ready to pounce as soon as someone looks the wrong way. The immorality and insanity of these acts have reached such insane levels that all the excuses (communism, 9/11, terrorism, brutal dictators, etc.) aren't really working anymore. The hell that the US has unleashed in the last 70 years has really brought to the attention of many people here that something is fucked up with the government.

 

With those 3 things, I'll add that the level of propaganda and brainwashing in the US is such that there appears to be a growing divide here between people. People here seem to be either in total government fantasy-land or they're miles down the rabbit hole after taking the red pill. The feeling I got in Europe was that, on average, people are more aware of government, politics, economics, and current affairs, but their awareness is in the middle of the spectrum.

[tymophy]

With those 3 things, I'll add that the level of propaganda and brainwashing in the US is such that there appears to be a growing divide here between people. People here seem to be either in total government fantasy-land or they're miles down the rabbit hole after taking the red pill. The feeling I got in Europe was that, on average, people are more aware of government, politics, economics, and current affairs, but their awareness is in the middle of the spectrum.

 

I totally agree with everything you've said.

To add to this. What is even more dangerous to Europeans is that they are told and they believe that they are more informed.

Which is probably true, but that prevents them from ever going deeper. It's like a cozy Oh I'm so smart kind of blanket...

 

And why I would personally feel more secure in America. First of all a lot more empty space. A tradition of people NOT afraid to defend themselves (although it would be misguided to think you can defend yourself against Drones with guns.)

But as history shows, you only need a small minority to change the status quo.  So if 15% of Americans actually believe in Freedom, libertarianism etc. that would be a great foundation to build on.

 

I've found a von Mises institute branch in Holland, hours drive away from my hometown, comparable to the MidWest in America.

We have to grow some libertarian crop here. Or else I might have to leave this place after graduation. Plenty of English speaking countries.

 

thanx for these points

 

Edit--

 

Waauw in Austria ?? Didn't they have Jorg Haider?  That extreme right-wing fellow.  That was probably a response to all the socialists policies I guess.  I heard about that in Greece.  That people, especially in the government, were receiving multiple pensions or full salaries years and years after they left.  Well Holland is pretty socialist too. I am even socialist in that regard. I'm getting unemployment benefits now. ( I worked before, now aiming for a college degree).

 

Do you miss Austria or Europe and in what regard or are you glad to be back in I'm guessing the US??

Consequently, it appears the people of Europe can't do math.

[marius]

While i cant say that i have talked to a representative sample of the population (Netherlands in this case), from what i heard from you guys and in general from other sources, its indeed a problem.

The point regarding North America and freedom is relevant here, because the people that didnt leave Europe for The new world arent very interested in progress.

 

And if you take the example of guns, its clear that this is a consequence of the leadership style for the last hundreds of years.

 

You would think that people that are in a larger number raised without violence would embrace freedom, but looks like there is a conflict of interest, and moreover no violence doesnt mean healthy upbringing, i saw some examples that led to neglect.

 

This, and add the fact that the economical and political system is unsustainable, i dont see myself hanging around here for much longer. I finish my Bachelors course and im gone. I dont feel any responsibility to prove anything to these people. Of course children are a different matter, which is why one of my plans is to make a system related to education, maybe even educating the parents.

[Lians]

Welcome to the board, Tim! I'm glad you made it here!

 

Dylan, that was an excellent overview. I've lived in both Eastern and Western Europe and have come to similar conclusions. The only thing I'd add to your list is the language barrier. It's a lot easier to disseminate ideas in North America because most people speak the same language.

[Mike Fleming]

 

 

Thirdly, since WWII, Europe hasn't had much do with causing and maintaining catastrophic imperialistic wars like the US has (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.) and doesn't have 750 military bases around the world ready to pounce as soon as someone looks the wrong way. The immorality and insanity of these acts have reached such insane levels that all the excuses (communism, 9/11, terrorism, brutal dictators, etc.) aren't really working anymore. The hell that the US has unleashed in the last 70 years has really brought to the attention of many people here that something is fucked up with the government.

 

 

My experience of this though is that they see it as a US thing and not a government thing.  Those crazy Americans always wanting to blow things up.

 

Being British , I've heard from lots of people how the British army know what they are doing and don't cause needless destruction and are more professional than the US army.  That the Americans always come along and just screw things up.  It's all garbage of course, the British are just as bad, on a smaller scale, but that's how most seem to see it.

 

America is not seen as a bastion of hope by most of the world but as a bed of corruption.  Being that the idea of liberty is so strong in America, other people then associate liberty ideas with unrestricted corruption and think how much better it is having governments that aren't like that.  Government's that look after their citizens.  That's been my experience anyway.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

 

To add to this. What is even more dangerous to Europeans is that they are told and they believe that they are more informed.

Which is probably true, but that prevents them from ever going deeper. It's like a cozy Oh I'm so smart kind of blanket...

 

Now that you mention it, I got this feeling as well. It's definitely a feeling of "smugness". I remember having a conversation with an Austrian guy about gun control (it was right after Sandy Hook), and after going through all the logical processes and showing him that his argument didn't make sense, I could see on his face he understood what I said and agreed with it. Despite this, he leaned back into his chair, crossed his arms, and said, "Well, we in Europe have a different opinion." As if to say, yea, everything you said makes sense, but you're an American so it's still crazy. Right.

 

 

 

Waauw in Austria ?? Didn't they have Jorg Haider?  That extreme right-wing fellow.  That was probably a response to all the socialists policies I guess.

 

I don't know anything about Jörg Haider, but I was able to gleam some sentiment from the blue party there (Austria has four parties: black - conservative, red - socialism, green - environmentalist, blue - nationalist). The blue party used to be the brown party, but they were forced to change because brown was the color of the Nazi party--and this is how everyone I interacted with viewed them as. However, any growth in the blue party seems mostly due to anti-EU sentiments to me.

 

I read one of their brochures/magazines once, and I was surprised to see that the information they reported was a hell of a lot more accurate than anything I had heard from any other party (i.e. they are willing to open their mouths about the EU debt problem). But of course, their screaming reactionist responses to these problems leave a little to be desired.

 

 

 

Do you miss Austria or Europe and in what regard or are you glad to be back in I'm guessing the US??

 

Well, I don't really know if I'm glad to be back in the US or not. I was basically living as a vagabond in Europe for two and a half years and now that I'm back I don't really know what to do with myself. I'm having a hell of a time finding a job, and I don't know it that's just because the job market sucks or because I suck at applying myself to the job market. I want to begin a business of some sort (or at least something that leads into the direction of a self-sufficient livelihood), and I'm having a hell of a time doing it, probably because I was drawn through the meat grinder known as public schooling. I feel more comfortable here with the idea of starting a new business (dealing with that in another language and different "laws" sounds kind of daunting), but at the same time, if I'm forced to get a job, I would rather do it in a place I'm not familiar with.

 

Mixed feelings, to answer your question.

Welcome to the board, Tim! I'm glad you made it here!

 

Dylan, that was an excellent overview. I've lived in both Eastern and Western Europe and have come to similar conclusions. The only thing I'd add to your list is the language barrier. It's a lot easier to disseminate ideas in North America because most people speak the same language.

 

Definitely gotta agree with you on that one. Sometimes I get the feeling that "the conversation" is only happening in English and I wonder how it can be transmuted to other languages. The response to this seems to be that everyone else just learns English.

[PatrickC]

Europe is sadly in the grip of cultural marxism. This means that we ourselves are probably the only agents of change I'm afraid.. However, I do find that a great and interesting challenge to tackle.

[super.bueno]

There is a great difference between what we ( you ) call shy in different European countries. Europe as a continet spreads from the Ural and Caucasus mountains in the East to Portugal in the west, and from Norway in the north to I guess Sicily in the south.

 

As you probably know the second name for Europe is ,, The old continent '' , so it remained old, conservative aristocratic, and imperialistic. When it comes to the so called New World which are todays modern countries such as USA, CAN , AUS, NZ, they had had time and opportunity to develop in more liberal manner in comparison with their European counterparts predominantly Great Britain and France, and of course Spain and Portugal when it comes to Latin America.

 

I dont believe in an institution of nationality. I was born in a European country, which now I find absolutely bizzare, cinic, fradulent, primitive conservative ( political, religious, economic, life perspectives ) so I decided not to call it my home or my country any more. Romans used to say ubi bene ibi patria - which means Where I am at ease, there is (my) country.

You have all the right to search and persue your happiness, whereever its located.

 

,,My Name is Tim, 26 years old, from Holland.

I grew up with no brothers/sisters with my parents. They split up when I was 2 or 3 years old.

My mother, single-home, fairly socialist, spanked me regularly with wooden spoons, sticks etc. from the age of 3 until the age of 11. She became a Christian from when I was 10 or 11, which  I still blame myself for, because we were one of the few people in my mother's side of the family who weren't. I sort of pondered to her why we couldn't go to church?

My dad was emotionally pretty distant. He wasn't around from age 2 until age 4. Later on we still weren't close when it came to reallife human things like sex, music, culture whatever.

But we both had the same sense of humor, political views (age 14) conservative and both liked practicality. And my dad never spanked me. He could get confrontational but rarely any yelling. ''

 

You want to say that your conservative father is somehow more understandable than your ex-socialist mother.

Its like you re choosing between -165 and -168, and you ve chosen -165 cause its more positive and closer to zero. I know this feeling

 

 

 

Welcome to the board, Tim! I'm glad you made it here!

 

Dylan, that was an excellent overview. I've lived in both Eastern and Western Europe and have come to similar conclusions. The only thing I'd add to your list is the language barrier. It's a lot easier to disseminate ideas in North America because most people speak the same language.

In which country of Eastern Europe have you lived, and for how long if its not too personal? 

Europe is sadly in the grip of cultural marxism. This means that we ourselves are probably the only agents of change I'm afraid.. However, I do find that a great and interesting challenge to tackle.

Unfortunately its true what you are saying, in each and every European society ( country ) according to my estimations there is not more than 1-3% of libertarian, free-thinking, truth seeking, aware, alternative population. Maybe even less, it can vary from country to country.

[Guest Exceptionalist]

Europe is sadly in the grip of cultural marxism. This means that we ourselves are probably the only agents of change I'm afraid.. However, I do find that a great and interesting challenge to tackle.

 

 

Larger numbers of libertarians in the USA facing a more powerfull government than the Europeans have. As long as the EU wouldn't become the EUDSSR, it isn't gonna change. The odds are more or less even.

[PatrickC]

Larger numbers of libertarians in the USA facing a more powerfull government than the Europeans have. As long as the EU wouldn't become the EUDSSR, it isn't gonna change. The odds are more or less even.

 

That maybe so. But since when are US citizens facing criminal charges for hate speech or even trolling on social media. I'd say it has less to do with political power than it does cultural indoctrination. Europeans are firmly statist minded. Which is why the only libertarian interest you get is minarchist and political. In terms of thinkers and exponents of ideas around anarchism we are in a blistering desert out here.

[super.bueno]

That maybe so. But since when are US citizens facing criminal charges for hate speech or even trolling on social media. I'd say it has less to do with political power than it does cultural indoctrination. Europeans are firmly statist minded. Which is why the only libertarian interest you get is minarchist and political. In terms of thinkers and exponents of ideas around anarchism we are in a blistering desert out here.

There are thinkers not that many though, but they are just too afraid to speak up and act, so they have to conform with all sorts of fascists lead by various European governments.

[PatrickC]

There are thinkers not that many though, but they are just too afraid to speak up and act, so they have to conform with all sorts of fascists lead by various European governments.

 

 As a European, that is frankly the least of my problems

[super.bueno]

 As a European, that is frankly the least of my problems

Which is the biggest one then?

[zippert]

In all european countries theres is this left-right system, where you have right wing parties, which grant you economic freedom, but in the same time attack your personal freedom. On the other hand, the left, that grants you e.g. gay marriage, but less economic freedom.

 

There are libertarian circles in Europe. In Holland, there is the ESFL and a libertarian party.