Markus FIN Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 So today while studying psychology I met this girl who said that she doesn't believe that we have free will. She said that we are like animals, only a bit more complicated. She also said that we can't really effect on what happens to us in the future, because everything we do is just a chain of complicated decisions made by our brains for us in search for happiness. This made me very sad and I can't get it out of my head... What if I really am just a brain and couple of other organs in my body. Perhaps I don't really think about things the way I believe, but am just being l controlled by a bunch of mindless instincts. It's really making me a bit nervous... Has anyone ever thought about this, or could share his opinions? I would like that a lot. Markus FIN
Wesley Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 There have been many debates previously on the boards and in podcasts about determinism vs free will that are around this topic that you might be interested in reading or listening to. It has somewhat been pounded to death and is at best a discouraged topic. However, I am very interested in your reaction to this idea in that you felt sad. I would be interested to hear more about what you felt and why you think you felt that way. Having a strong emotional reaction to an idea is a great opportunity for self knowledge and growth.
ParaSait Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Uh oh... this is a pretty explosive topic. Determinism vs Free Will has been furiously debated in call-in shows and on this forum. Personally though, I am a compatibilist and I find the whole discussion a bit silly. * Puts on helmet and prepares for incoming bullets But yeah, this debate became pretty saturated I think. You're better off reading existing discussions instead of starting a new one.
greekredemption Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 The most recent thread on this subject, which is still going in fact: http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/39113-definition-of-free-will/
Markus FIN Posted May 9, 2014 Author Posted May 9, 2014 Sorry people, my bad! I didn't realize that there were already that many debates and conversations about this, I will search more carefully next time! Markus FIN
Wesley Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Sorry people, my bad! I didn't realize that there were already that many debates and conversations about this, I will search more carefully next time! Markus FIN Its no problem. It would be especially hard to search if you were no aware of the term.
Markus FIN Posted May 9, 2014 Author Posted May 9, 2014 There have been many debates previously on the boards and in podcasts about determinism vs free will that are around this topic that you might be interested in reading or listening to. It has somewhat been pounded to death and is at best a discouraged topic. However, I am very interested in your reaction to this idea in that you felt sad. I would be interested to hear more about what you felt and why you think you felt that way. Having a strong emotional reaction to an idea is a great opportunity for self knowledge and growth. Well I got sad because it made me feel that if Determinism is actually true, then for my entire life I have been supporting the wrong ideologies. In my family there is a strong belief in the fact that everyone can take control of their destiny and make whatever they want out of their lives. It gives me tremendous hope regarding mine and other peoples futures. I have always been against high taxation because I feel like no-one can be FORCED to support people that were less successful than them. But if we can't really decide what we become, then not being successful or being a criminal is not really the persons fault. He can't do anyhting because it is all determined. It makes me feel like I'm a rat in a cage and that I have no control over myself or the world around me. It scares the living shit out of me... Markus FIN Its no problem. It would be especially hard to search if you were no aware of the term. Thank you. Markus FIN
Freedomain Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 So today while studying psychology I met this girl who said that she doesn't believe that we have free will. She said that we are like animals, only a bit more complicated. She also said that we can't really effect on what happens to us in the future, because everything we do is just a chain of complicated decisions made by our brains for us in search for happiness. This made me very sad and I can't get it out of my head... What if I really am just a brain and couple of other organs in my body. Perhaps I don't really think about things the way I believe, but am just being l controlled by a bunch of mindless instincts. It's really making me a bit nervous... Has anyone ever thought about this, or could share his opinions? I would like that a lot. Markus FIN My experience with determinists is that they are 100% right about determinism... in regards to themselves. Just replace "we" with "I" in what she was saying and you get a much clearer picture.
Markus FIN Posted May 9, 2014 Author Posted May 9, 2014 My experience with determinists is that they are 100% right about determinism... in regards to themselves. Just replace "we" with "I" in what she was saying and you get a much clearer picture. True that! Thank you MMD.
cynicist Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 So today while studying psychology I met this girl who said that she doesn't believe that we have free will. She said that we are like animals, only a bit more complicated. She also said that we can't really effect on what happens to us in the future, because everything we do is just a chain of complicated decisions made by our brains for us in search for happiness. In that case she's not really talking to you, so it wouldn't make sense to listen
Markus FIN Posted May 10, 2014 Author Posted May 10, 2014 In that case she's not really talking to you, so it wouldn't make sense to listen Yeah that's true. But it is still a question that is bugging me. It is not my style to just shut something I might have been wrong about out of my mind... I guess it is a question of faith right? We can't prove either way, so you just have to pick either one and have faith... :)Markus FIN
cynicist Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Yeah that's true. But it is still a question that is bugging me. It is not my style to just shut something I might have been wrong about out of my mind... I guess it is a question of faith right? We can't prove either way, so you just have to pick either one and have faith... :)Markus FIN Ermm, not quite. There are no practical differences one way or the other, (determinists will bend over backwards arguing it and then say they are programmed to do it and can't help their behavior when you point out the contradiction in arguing their position) but I'm going to go with the one that doesn't make everything I do or say completely arbitrary and take away my responsibility. Otherwise me arguing anything is equivalent to an audio player repeating one of Stefan's podcasts.... What determinists will rarely admit is that if choice is causal, due everything being reducible to neural activity in the brain, well that makes everything in the brain causal, including reason. If reason is causal, then how do we know anything is true outside of direct sensual experience? You become incapable of logic, and therefore truth. (since you can't help what your thoughts are) It's a form of brain damage, a psychological defense, that people use in order to abdicate responsibility for themselves or others (most likely, parents). Since there is no way to falsify it, I don't think the question is a philosophical one at all, but of course we're all free to believe anything we want... (except for determinists )
Markus FIN Posted May 10, 2014 Author Posted May 10, 2014 Ermm, not quite. There are no practical differences one way or the other, (determinists will bend over backwards arguing it and then say they are programmed to do it and can't help their behavior when you point out the contradiction in arguing their position) but I'm going to go with the one that doesn't make everything I do or say completely arbitrary and take away my responsibility. Otherwise me arguing anything is equivalent to an audio player repeating one of Stefan's podcasts....What determinists will rarely admit is that if choice is causal, due everything being reducible to neural activity in the brain, well that makes everything in the brain causal, including reason. If reason is causal, then how do we know anything is true outside of direct sensual experience? You become incapable of logic, and therefore truth. (since you can't help what your thoughts are) It's a form of brain damage, a psychological defense, that people use in order to abdicate responsibility for themselves or others (most likely, parents). Since there is no way to falsify it, I don't think the question is a philosophical one at all, but of course we're all free to believe anything we want... (except for determinists )Yeah I guess you'r right. It is just an interesting question because if we really go deep down and think about it, we can't KNOW anything... I might not actually be writing this message as I might just be in a coma and imagine the entire world around me. I might not even excist! But to not go crazy I have decided to consider the thing that is the most likely to be the truth. But I will still remember that I can be wrong about everything, as well as everyone else. ;)Markus FIN
cynicist Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Yeah I guess you'r right. It is just an interesting question because if we really go deep down and think about it, we can't KNOW anything... I might not actually be writing this message as I might just be in a coma and imagine the entire world around me. I might not even excist! But to not go crazy I have decided to consider the thing that is the most likely to be the truth. But I will still remember that I can be wrong about everything, as well as everyone else. ;)Markus FIN Well no, if you say that we can't know anything, that's self-contradictory. You are making a knowledge claim, that we can't know anything, that truth is subjective. It can't be 'true' since truth is an objective standard. I know that may be confusing but it's important to be precise here, since the whole purpose of this board is exploring the truth and so being active here when you don't believe truth exists doesn't make a whole lot of sense lol. Even saying 'I don't exist' doesn't make a lot of sense, because what does the 'I' in that statement refer to then? If this is just the first time you've ever heard these ideas you may want to check out Stefan's Introduction to Philosophy series. He does an excellent job of providing the foundational ideas surrounding philosophy, it's the best primer that I've ever seen anyway. (It's a very good antidote to the becoming crazy thing )
TheRobin Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Well, I guess technically, when people say "We can't know anything" what they really mean is "The only thing we can know is that any claims about the outside world can't be 100% proven" or somethign like that, which, depending on how you define "knowledge" and "proof" might actually be accurate (albeit comepletely useless as a model of reality)
cynicist Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Well, I guess technically, when people say "We can't know anything" what they really mean is "The only thing we can know is that any claims about the outside world can't be 100% proven" or somethign like that, which, depending on how you define "knowledge" and "proof" might actually be accurate (albeit comepletely useless as a model of reality) Logically that fails though. If you say the only thing that we know (i.e. with 100% certainty) is that claims outside of the world can't be 100% proven, well that itself is a claim about the outside world, which makes the statement self-detonating.
TheRobin Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 No, it's claim about claims about the outside world.
Markus FIN Posted May 10, 2014 Author Posted May 10, 2014 Well, I guess technically, when people say "We can't know anything" what they really mean is "The only thing we can know is that any claims about the outside world can't be 100% proven" or somethign like that, which, depending on how you define "knowledge" and "proof" might actually be accurate (albeit comepletely useless as a model of reality)Excactlty! Thank you for clarifying. :)Markus FIN
Tenko Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 She also said that we can't really effect on what happens to us in the future, because everything we do is just a chain of complicated decisions made by our brains for us in search for happiness. This made me very sad and I can't get it out of my head... Let's say that hypothetically you're starving and you enter a room which has a basket full of chocolate and a stack of firewood. The memories of eating food which you still possess, the belief that wood is not food which you still hold, and the knowledge that starvation leads to death which you have obtained, all lead to your decision to eat the chocolate and make your stomach happy. Surely, this is not a reason to be sad? It's a good thing you know what food is and that wood can't be eaten and that starvation leads to death, because now you get a whole basket full of chocolate instead of a stomach full of splinters. How many other options were there? You could have eaten wood, or stones, or dog vomit, or nothing at all. Those are all options. But they suck. How much happiness do you currently enjoy by choosing not to brush your teeth with steel wool? And having teeth that aren't gound to dust means more happiness by way of more food options, a more glamorous appearance, more time available to spend pursuing happiness instead of waiting for swollen abcesses to go away, etc. How could it be that the pursuit of happiness itself can be a source of sadness? Making a choice in order to make yourself happy as opposed to sad is an act of increasing your happiness, not an act of reducing it. So you know what makes you happy. Even if you can't find it, at least you know what it is. Even if it's impossible you could still dream about it. Even if it's stolen from you, you still know what it is that makes you happy, and you can still dream about it even though having it at the moment is impossible, and you can still pursue it in the future even though you don't have it now. This all seems like a lot of power to me, rather than a lack of power. Looking at the chain of events would be looking at the past. Regrets, hindsight, etc. Seemingly so many things that could have been done but only one thing was done. If you're considering what the future holds, realize that foresight is profitable while hindsight is not. So many things that can be done. Even if only one thing can be done at a time, since the choices have yet to be made, the options become increased from one to countless. So don't think in terms of determinism when looking at the future. The deterministic universe includes your free will in its gears, which means your choices and actions help to determine your own future. Your free will is effective. Goals are possible. Dreams might be fulfillable. Unless you think they're impossible. Then your goals and dreams are already dead. And then, only the goals and dreams of other people will remain, but so will you, without any of your own. There's a war on for your mind, because only you can turn yourself into a slave. Only you can give up your own future because only you can make your choices. If you are, at least in part, the co-author of the book that is your future, based on the things that you want and the choices that you make in order to obtain them, then the potential to find happiness, plan it out and make it happen, is there. The fact that goals can be conceived and some dreams might actually be possible, isn't that reason for joy rather than depression? If the things that happened to us in the past are a cause of depression, then why hang onto them at all? Why not just figure out what kind of future would deliver the most happiness for you, and stop building the future where you have no choice or freedom or happiness, etc, and start building the future that you want to live in? Often times, to overcome something you have to walk away from it. To overcome an addiction to a drug, to lose weight, to gain freedom, you must walk away from something. Because we're all free by default. Unless we think we're not. To overcome government slavery we must stop funding it, stop waving flags, stop voting, and stop empowering those who would increase slavery; we must walk away from it. To overcome a hungry stomach, we must first not become a slave to the stomach; we must walk away from it, or our stomachs will be used against us to enslave us. To overcome the world, would we not have to walk away from it as well? Can one build the future that he wants, without first walking away from the future that was placed in front of him by other people? By hungry wolves. He has to walk away from the wolves to find green pastures, right? So you've got this incredible opportunity to make of your life what you will and be one of the authors of your own future; to find happiness. But these stumbling blocks have been put in front of you, so that if you don't make the right choices, you will end up 'belonging' to someone else. Isn't it wonderful that we have the power to prefer that basket of chocolate over that stack of firewood? That we have the power to prefer freedom instead of slavery? To try and pursue actual freedom, which most people don't want you to have for various reasons, is something that you are capable of doing. If you prefer it.
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