An open letter to Stefan Molyneux about Minarchism

[Markus FIN]

Well 'use of force' is a foggy term, if someone tries to hit you and you grab their arm, that's force?Whereas the government claims a monopoly right to initiate the use of force.Which in most cases is the origins of the chaos...What is it, like 95% of robberies are commited to fund drug addictions?Not to mention all the millions murdered, dispossessed etc by the state.

I am not that familiar with the drug issue that is going on in the states, but overall people believe that a controlled violence is a better idea than an uncontrolled violence. :(Markus FIN

[RyanT]

I am not that familiar with the drug issue that is going on in the states, but overall people believe that a controlled violence is a better idea than an uncontrolled violence. :(Markus FIN

 

Well let's be honest with each other here mate,

by 'people believe' do you mean 'I believe'?

[Markus FIN]

Well let's be honest with each other here mate,

by 'people believe' do you mean 'I believe'?

I used to, but not really anymore. But most people (over 50%) fear anarchy because if it gets out of hand it causes people to die. Anarchy has lead to a lot of deaths in history because bad people have abused it and most people don't believe we could somehow "change" these bad people. To them it's Utopistic and will never work. I am not 100% sure which way I go yet, because like I have said I like to take things slow and not rush into anything... One of my biggest fears is to rush into something without thinking and ending up being incorrect.

 

Markus FIN

 

I GOT THE MESSAGE! YOU CAN GO EASY ON THE DISLIKES NOW...

[RyanT]

I used to, but not really anymore. But mot people (over 50%) fear anarchy because if it gets out of hand it causes people to die. Anarchy has lead to a lot of deaths in history because bad people have abused it and most people don't believe we could someone "change" these bad people. To them it's Utopistic and will never work. I am not 100% sure which way I go yet, because like I have said I like to take things slow and not rush into anything... One of my biggest fears is to rush into something without thinking and ending up being incorrect.

 

Markus FIN

 

I down voted your post there, mainly because I just feel you're being dishonest and willfully ignorant,

when you're clearly a smart guy.....

 

Neither Stefan, nor anyone else here has suggested we should (even if we could) wave some magic wand/have a big revolution and dismantle the state overnight. Indeed most in this community accept the transition to a free society will be a multi-generational evolution in society, which has been explicitly stated to you on numerous occasions...

 

Yet you continue to post as if this wasn't the case?

 

Also you made a statement of fact that, 

 

'Anarchy has lead to a lot of deaths in history because bad people have abused it' 

 

Now in the 20th century alone, rough estimates suggest the state was responsible for 200 million deaths,   

is that not 'a lot'?

 

How many people would you say have died as a result of anarchy?

[Markus FIN]

I down voted your post there, mainly because I just feel you're being dishonest and willfully ignorant,

when you're clearly a smart guy.....

 

Neither Stefan, nor anyone else here has suggested we should (even if we could) wave some magic wand/have a big revolution and dismantle the state overnight. Indeed most in this community accept the transition to a free society will be a multi-generational evolution in society, which has been explicitly stated to you on numerous occasions...

 

Yet you continue to post as if as if this wasn't the case?

 

Also you made a statement of fact that, 

 

'Anarchy has lead to a lot of deaths in history because bad people have abused it' 

 

Now in the 20th century alone, rough estimates suggest the state was responsible for 200 million deaths,   

is that not 'a lot'?

 

How many people would you say have died as a result of anarchy?

I don't have the statistics for how many people have died in anarchy, because there has been so many examples throughout history and most of them only last a short period of time before a new government is formed. But of course I understand that there would be less deaths in a society without a state, that has been stated here a multiple times. The thing is that where I live saying that "there should be no government" is a huge taboo... If I even try to explain to the people around me why I would prefer a stateless society they look at me like I am a freak. They don't even let me explain, they simply believe they are correct. They don't care about statistics. They don't even want me to show them! So that is what I am saying, sorry if I am coming out repeating myself, but I am just very confused by the fact that people around me in real life simply don't CARE about this stuff... That is what I meant with over 50% agreeing with the violence of the state, they simply aren't interested as long as it doesn't directly concern them. Also it's okay that you voted down that post. After all we learn from feedback.

 

What was the part that you felt I was dishonest about?

 

Also I have thought of closing this thread because there has been so many good arguments in favor of Anarchism. There really isn't anything more I can say here, but I have been hesitant of closing this thread in case someone has an idea or an argument I have not heard before. But yeah if you think I should close this thread then just say it and I will, because it has been going in circles for a while now.

 

Markus FIN

[RyanT]

What was the part that you felt I was dishonest about?

 

 

Well after you're last post mate, pretty much everything you said before... 

 

'I AM NOT A FULL ANARCHIST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO SEE ME AS A FREAK AND LOSE THEIR RESPECT!'

 

but that really took a lot of balls to admit, seriously respect you're honesty. 

 

Sadly a some point most of us have to make the choice

between logic-virtue-morality and friends and family, 

and I don't blame anyone who chooses the latter.

 

If that's the route you're going to take though, my only advice would be do it now,

certainly don't call-in on the 26th of June and have that conversation with Stefan. 

 

Leave now while we're in the realm of nice cosy abstract theories, 

because once you start examining those personal relationships, 

there really is a 'point of no return'.....

 

When, chances are;

 

You'll see them as the freaks and find them impossible to respect,

which basically means that's you're 'support network' gone,

so of course you're going to need to find a new one.

 

......but then you realize all you've ever known is that dysfunction, 

so the only way out of that state of limbo is though tons of self work, 

and it's really painful and 'humiliating' and totally panic inducing,

and if you end up going to therapy it may also be very expensive. 

 

With absolutely no grantee they'll be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

Certainly know I've spent a lot of the last year or so,

wishing I'd taken the blue pill.

[Markus FIN]

Well after you're last post mate, pretty much everything you said before... 'I AM NOT A FULL ANARCHIST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO SEE ME AS A FREAK AND LOSE THEIR RESPECT!'but that really took a lot of balls to admit, seriously respect you're honesty. Sadly a some point most of us have to make the choicebetween logic-virtue-morality and friends and family, and I don't blame anyone who chooses the latter.If that's the route you're going to take though, my only advice would be do it now,certainly don't call-in on the 26th of June and have that conversation with Stefan. Leave now while we're in the realm of nice cosy abstract theories, because once you start examining those personal relationships, there really is a 'point of no return'.....When, chances are;You'll see them as the freaks and find them impossible to respect,which basically means that's you're 'support network' gone,so of course you're going to need to find a new one.......but then you realize all you've ever known is that dysfunction, so the only way out of that state of limbo is though tons of self work, and it's really painful and 'humiliating' and totally panic inducing,and if you end up going to therapy it may also be very expensive. With absolutely no grantee they'll be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.Certainly know I've spent a lot of the last year or so,wishing I'd taken the blue pill.

Thank you so much for caring about me enough to write that, it really means a lot to me. :') I decided to tell my father that I am an Anarcho-Capitalist and he WAS FINE WITH IT! Even though he was a bit: "I hope you know what you are doing..." He was still okay with it as long as I don't try to force my views on them 24/7. I will go easy on them but that doesn't mean I am not going to explain my views to them from time to time! So you said I can choose betweem my morality and my social safety-net... FUCK THE CHOISE SYSTEM! YOU CAN COUNT ME IN! IF MY NET DOESN'T RESPECT MY VIEWS THEN FUCK THEM! I TAKE THE RED PILL!Period.Markus FIN

[Marblemarrow]

So you said I can choose betweem my morality and my social safety-net... FUCK THE CHOISE SYSTEM! YOU CAN COUNT ME IN! IF MY NET DOESN'T RESPECT MY VIEWS THEN FUCK THEM! I TAKE THE RED PILL!

I hope you're not willing to ostracize yourself completely because of your beliefs. I've been reading your posts for a while and I'm surprised that you actually know someone, especially an older guy, who is actually liberally minded and in your own family of origin in Finland! Now that's amazing - unfortunately, that's also almost the equivalent of winning the lottery here. So I'm stepping out of the line here in saying that don't let it get in the way of your happiness. There's nothing immoral in keeping some of your beliefs away from some people in your life, especially this young, when you are very dependant socially and economically on the people around you. I would say that your dad might be one of the only people you meet in real life, especially this young, that is actually going to be fine with your anarcho-capitalism. For all you guys out there advocating this "all or nothing"-dichotomy, you need to understand the context of the other person's life - this is not USA or Canada, guys like Markus or his dad are rare here and the same goes with any such communities.

 

I'm not trying to put you down here. I'm just saying that for you own well being you should be smart about what you say and that it isn't immoral in any way. Just like an atheist probably wouldn't go yelling against god around everyone in Mississippi. Remember even the red pill was "nothing but the truth", it wasn't "go protest x or y or fight against the system all day everyday against your own benefit". Most in this forum haven't evaded taxes and gone into jail just because they think taxation is theft, right? The same way you might want to see into the ramifications of your actions in your own situation given that you're so young. Anyway, I hope you get my point. I wish you all the best dude.- Another dude from your country who has three years more experience in living here.

[Markus FIN]

I hope you're not willing to ostracize yourself completely because of your beliefs. I've been reading your posts for a while and I'm surprised that you actually know someone, especially an older guy, who is actually liberally minded and in your own family of origin in Finland! Now that's amazing - unfortunately, that's also almost the equivalent of winning the lottery here. So I'm stepping out of the line here in saying that don't let it get in the way of your happiness. There's nothing immoral in keeping some of your beliefs away from some people in your life, especially this young, when you are very dependant socially and economically on the people around you. I would say that your dad might be one of the only people you meet in real life, especially this young, that is actually going to be fine with your anarcho-capitalism. For all you guys out there advocating this "all or nothing"-dichotomy, you need to understand the context of the other person's life - this is not USA or Canada, guys like Markus or his dad are rare here and the same goes with any such communities.

 

I'm not trying to put you down here. I'm just saying that for you own well being you should be smart about what you say and that it isn't immoral in any way. Just like an atheist probably wouldn't go yelling against god around everyone in Mississippi. Remember even the red pill was "nothing but the truth", it wasn't "go protest x or y or fight against the system all day everyday against your own benefit". Most in this forum haven't evaded taxes and gone into jail just because they think taxation is theft, right? The same way you might want to see into the ramifications of your actions in your own situation given that you're so young. Anyway, I hope you get my point. I wish you all the best dude.- Another dude from your country who has three years more experience in living here.

Thank you a lot. On kiva nähdä täällä muitakin suomalaisia! The advise that my dad gave me was that I can believe everything I want and he won't judge, but I just mustn't go out to the streets shouting "my truth" like some religious nut. I use a lot of time to think about these issues and at the current moment I am struggling on figuring out how could it prevented that in a completely free society there would not be gang of thieves and murderers that use force on others... Minarchism still has some advantages as in it we can use the state to enforce the NAP to people who otherwise would rape, steal and murder. If Anarcho-Capitalism works in practice however, I am 100% for it.

 

Suomalaisia FDR:ssa, torilla tavataan.

 

Thank you all for posting on this thread and I hope it has helped some people with their political dilemmas. I very much enjoyed this conversation with you all and I hope you do well!

 

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED

 

Markus FIN

[RyanT]

I hope you're not willing to ostracize yourself completely because of your beliefs. I've been reading your posts for a while and I'm surprised that you actually know someone, especially an older guy, who is actually liberally minded and in your own family of origin in Finland! Now that's amazing - unfortunately, that's also almost the equivalent of winning the lottery here. So I'm stepping out of the line here in saying that don't let it get in the way of your happiness. There's nothing immoral in keeping some of your beliefs away from some people in your life, especially this young, when you are very dependant socially and economically on the people around you. I would say that your dad might be one of the only people you meet in real life, especially this young, that is actually going to be fine with your anarcho-capitalism. For all you guys out there advocating this "all or nothing"-dichotomy, you need to understand the context of the other person's life - this is not USA or Canada, guys like Markus or his dad are rare here and the same goes with any such communities.

 

I'm not trying to put you down here. I'm just saying that for you own well being you should be smart about what you say and that it isn't immoral in any way. Just like an atheist probably wouldn't go yelling against god around everyone in Mississippi. Remember even the red pill was "nothing but the truth", it wasn't "go protest x or y or fight against the system all day everyday against your own benefit". Most in this forum haven't evaded taxes and gone into jail just because they think taxation is theft, right? The same way you might want to see into the ramifications of your actions in your own situation given that you're so young. Anyway, I hope you get my point. I wish you all the best dude.- Another dude from your country who has three years more experience in living here.

 

Not suggesting or advocating anything, just a friendly warning......

 

'To See the Farm is to Leave It'

 

[PatrickC]

The advise that my dad gave me was that I can believe everything I want and he won't judge, but I just mustn't go out to the streets shouting "my truth" like some religious nut.

 

Hey Markus, just wanted to say that this is probably great advice from your father. Only hand out information to those are truly interested.. The only thing that really matters is not the political system we live in per se, since we have so little control over that. But rather the relationships and life that we currently enjoy! I look forward to your conversation with Stefan.

[Markus FIN]

Not suggesting or advocating anything, just a friendly warning......

 

'To See the Farm is to Leave It'

 

Fuck it, this topic is re-opened. Who says I want to leave the farm? What I want is that the farm would not be a prison from which you can't escape. There is no possibility to get away from governments in the current world and that is the only problem. If I leave the farm I will just end up on another farm. There is no unclaimed wilderness anymore, so where would I leave to? If there was a CHOICE between living free and living in a state, I would choose the state. It is like choosing which hotel to go to and I will rather pay money to sleep in a comfortable bed than sleep outside in the woods. As long as you give the people the freedom to NOT be a part of the state, there will be no major ethical issues. If people voluntarily give their money to a government in order to live there, then the question of whether taxing is moral or immoral because obsolete. If you think there is a logical error or something else that I have made a mistake with then please state it in a post. I would appreciate if you only disliked when I have done something inappropriate.

 

Markus FIN

Hey Markus, just wanted to say that this is probably great advice from your father. Only hand out information to those are truly interested.. The only thing that really matters is not the political system we live in per se, but rather the relationships and life that we currently enjoy! I look forward to your conversation with Stefan.

Thank you for backing me up xelent, you are a great guy!

I hope you're not willing to ostracize yourself completely because of your beliefs. I've been reading your posts for a while and I'm surprised that you actually know someone, especially an older guy, who is actually liberally minded and in your own family of origin in Finland! Now that's amazing - unfortunately, that's also almost the equivalent of winning the lottery here. So I'm stepping out of the line here in saying that don't let it get in the way of your happiness. There's nothing immoral in keeping some of your beliefs away from some people in your life, especially this young, when you are very dependant socially and economically on the people around you. I would say that your dad might be one of the only people you meet in real life, especially this young, that is actually going to be fine with your anarcho-capitalism. For all you guys out there advocating this "all or nothing"-dichotomy, you need to understand the context of the other person's life - this is not USA or Canada, guys like Markus or his dad are rare here and the same goes with any such communities.

 

I'm not trying to put you down here. I'm just saying that for you own well being you should be smart about what you say and that it isn't immoral in any way. Just like an atheist probably wouldn't go yelling against god around everyone in Mississippi. Remember even the red pill was "nothing but the truth", it wasn't "go protest x or y or fight against the system all day everyday against your own benefit". Most in this forum haven't evaded taxes and gone into jail just because they think taxation is theft, right? The same way you might want to see into the ramifications of your actions in your own situation given that you're so young. Anyway, I hope you get my point. I wish you all the best dude.- Another dude from your country who has three years more experience in living here.

Sorry for you bro, I don't know why anyone would dislike that comment. To me it seemed clear and rational.

[RyanT]

Fuck it, this topic is re-opened. Who says I want to leave the farm? What I want is that the farm would not be a prison from which you can't escape. There is no possibility to get away from governments in the current world and that is the only problem. If I leave the farm I will just end up on another farm. There is no unclaimed wilderness anymore, so where would I leave to? If there was a CHOICE between living free and living in a state, I would choose the state. It is like choosing which hotel to go to and I will rather pay money to sleep in a comfortable bed than sleep outside in the woods. As long as you give the people the freedom to NOT be a part of the state, there will be no major ethical issues. If people voluntarily give their money to a government in order to live there, then the question of whether taxing is moral or immoral because obsolete. If you think there is a logical error or something else that I have made a mistake with then please state it in a post. I would appreciate if you only disliked when I have done something inappropriate.

 

 

Did the youtube video not show for you either?

..thought it was just my laptop playing up.

 

try again,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBOEBWO-yA

[Markus FIN]

Did the youtube video not show for you either?

..thought it was just my laptop playing up.

 

try again,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBOEBWO-yA

Now it works! I will check that out.

[Markus FIN]

Did the youtube video not show for you either?

..thought it was just my laptop playing up.

 

try again,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBOEBWO-yA

"Stop associating with those who would attack you for your opinion." Please don't dislike this comment because I am going to tell you my completely honest opinion on how I feel about Anarcho-Capitalism after watching that video...

The fanatic fascists, the fanatic socialists and the fanatic religious groups all have similar ways of action as the one you just pointed out. They all are 100% sure that what they know (which they do not as they only believe) is the truth and they are willing to cut all social relationships and connects to the outside world for it. Not all of them can be right, so some of them must be wrong. It is likely that most of them were actually wrong and that their beliefs only led them to insanity and sorrow. Libertarianism is based on philosophy and rational thinking, but how can I be sure if this is the right path to follow? What if this is the wrong path and I spend my entire life trying to catch a ghost. In a way it seems like while Stefan is inviting us in with open arms he is simultaneously closing the gate behind us to make it harder to leave. I am trying to stay between the gate and the rest of the world but it is squeezing tighter all the time. Stefan says that the world I left behind is the prison and the door he is opening for me is the way to freedom. But how can I be sure that the prison is not the place he is offering me?

 

I am going to try and clarify my thoughts and feelings by using the Truman Show as an example. Let's say that Truman is just minding his own business in the world which he thinks is real and one day he meets a man called Stefan who tells him that he is actually living in a big artificial world and has been observed and enslaved for his entire life. Truman then becomes confused and starts talking about it to people. People say that he is crazy and should stop thinking about it, which causes him to go back to Stefan. Stefan then tells him that they only say that because EVERYONE is part of the fraud. Everyone you have ever known or ever will know is an actor. To be able to become free you will need to stop associating with other people and cut all connections to the outside world. The only way to make it stop is to make you useless for the show, anything else and it would keep going. If you do not interact with anything, they show will go bust and they will be forced to let you leave. Truman believes him and does as he is told. He goes into the basement with food and locks it up tight until everyone admits the truth and the outside world is being dissembled... As it turns out Stefan was incorrect and there was no artificial environment. It had been the real world all the time and Truman had thrown away all of it. His friends, his wife, his children and his family because they just would not confess to him that they were supposedly "actors" and the world around him was a fraud...

 

This is why I am EXTREMELY CRITICAL when it comes to radical political or religious ideologies. To me it is the trademark of a wise man to check what is behind every door before deciding which one to choose. If one of the doors tries to close itself behind me while I peak inside, I immediately slam my foot in between to stop it. If I get trapped in the room and there is no way out I will never be able to return. I can't be sure what's on the other side of the door, but if I make the wrong choice I can never go back. So like I said, I will slam my foot in between the door and peak inside. No matter how prominent it looks from outside, I will never go permanently inside until I have seen everything.

 

This comes straight from my heart and I do not mean to insult ANYONE.

 

Markus

[cynicist]

Libertarianism is based on philosophy and rational thinking, but how can I be sure if this is the right path to follow? What if this is the wrong path and I spend my entire life trying to catch a ghost. In a way it seems like while Stefan is inviting us in with open arms he is simultaneously closing the gate behind us to make it harder to leave. I am trying to stay between the gate and the rest of the world but it is squeezing tighter all the time. Stefan says that the world I left behind is the prison and the door he is opening for me is the way to freedom. But how can I be sure that the prison is not the place he is offering me?

 

How do you know that anything is true? Use logic and evidence. Remember that your argument here is a double-edged sword. If what Stefan is saying IS true, then you are trying to remain in a corrupt, violent, and relativistic nightmare of a world due to your own fears and insecurities. Is that any more palatable?

 

To me it is the trademark of a wise man to check what is behind every door before deciding which one to choose. If one of the doors tries to close itself behind me while I peak inside, I immediately slam my foot in between to stop it. If I get trapped in the room and there is no way out I will never be able to return. I can't be sure what's on the other side of the door, but if I make the wrong choice I can never go back. So like I said, I will slam my foot in between the door and peak inside. No matter how prominent it looks from outside, I will never go permanently inside until I have seen everything.

 

Just don't get stuck in the door frame

 

I'd recommend watching Stefan's Introduction to Philosophy series. If you are worried that you can't trust yourself watching his videos then just explore any sources for critical thinking and empiricism in order to determine truth from falsehood and then apply those standards to the knowledge Stefan presents as well as what you see in the world around you. We were all as skeptical as you at one point, intelligent people tend to be that way. 

[Markus FIN]

How do you know that anything is true? Use logic and evidence. Remember that your argument here is a double-edged sword. If what Stefan is saying IS true, then you are trying to remain in a corrupt, violent, and relativistic nightmare of a world due to your own fears and insecurities. Is that any more palatable?

 

 

Just don't get stuck in the door frame

 

I'd recommend watching Stefan's Introduction to Philosophy series. If you are worried that you can't trust yourself watching his videos then just explore any sources for critical thinking and empiricism in order to determine truth from falsehood and then apply those standards to the knowledge Stefan presents as well as what you see in the world around you. We were all as skeptical as you at one point, intelligent people tend to be that way. 

I watched episode one of it already but I am yet to pick up part two. I'll check that next!

 

Markus FIN

[Marblemarrow]

Not suggesting or advocating anything, just a friendly warning......

 

'To See the Farm is to Leave It'

 

 

I wasn't attacking him for being anarcho-capitalist or wanting voluntary relationships - if that's what you're suggesting here, then there's been a miscommunication. The facts are that in order for him to have any kinds of social networks outside of his family, it's highly recommendable that he'd keep some of his beliefs away from some of the people in his life in this stage of his life. That doesn't mean that he ought not to seek more elevated relationships and/or diverge from some of the old ones, if and when he sees fit. I have to bring up the fact that Finland is a very patriotic country with a big state (we still have conscription [which he has to deal with one way or the other too], taxes across the roof etc.), with a population of circa 5 million in very low density with very little to non-existent libertarian history or active movement. It's an unfortunate place for a libertarian to say the least. As I said, I'm not trying to put him down or suggest living a life of complete fraud but to wait for the opportunities to get to that point without becoming a complete hermit. The way he went about it, as I quoted in my last post in this thread, was very self sabotaging and thus, ironically, even bordering detrimental to his future prospects of forging philosophically aware relationships as relationships in general may prove hard to make with such zealous output.

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me know how I came across to you (unless I've on the other hand misunderstood you). My point in a nutshell is that there aren't moral obligations for Markus to make sure that everyone around him is aware or approving of his beliefs. Regardless of whether he actually wants to forge a philosophically aware social network or not, I'd suggest for him to be strategic about his efforts to elevate his relationships given that the environment has significant difficulties in all directions in this respect, especially at his age and state of origin. Obviously I'm all for the personal quest to an enlightened life and relationships but it doesn't mean that the only path is to show the tender parts of your flesh, roasted, with salt and black pepper on it to every drool dripping predator out there.

 

Now I'd like to point out that I'm by no means in the position to tell you what to do but I'm bringing out some facts and input that I believe is in the best interest of Markus. Obviously he has to decide this for himself.

 

Ja mukavas nähdä muita suomalaisia, aloin jo vähän huolestua etteikö Suomessa olisi yhtään FDR:än kuuntelijaa. Moderaattorit ei varmaan hirveesti tykkää, jos täällä rupee puhelee suomea liika. Eli eiköhän se tältä erää...

[RyanT]

I wasn't attacking him for being anarcho-capitalist or wanting voluntary relationships - if that's what you're suggesting here, then there's been a miscommunication. The facts are that in order for him to have any kinds of social networks outside of his family, it's highly recommendable that he'd keep some of his beliefs away from some of the people in his life in this stage of his life. That doesn't mean that he ought not to seek more elevated relationships and/or diverge from some of the old ones, if and when he sees fit. I have to bring up the fact that Finland is a very patriotic country with a big state (we still have conscription [which he has to deal with one way or the other too], taxes across the roof etc.), with a population of circa 5 million in very low density with very little to non-existent libertarian history or active movement. It's an unfortunate place for a libertarian to say the least. As I said, I'm not trying to put him down or suggest living a life of complete fraud but to wait for the opportunities to get to that point without becoming a complete hermit. The way he went about it, as I quoted in my last post in this thread, was very self sabotaging and thus, ironically, even bordering detrimental to his future prospects of forging philosophically aware relationships as relationships in general may prove hard to make with such zealous output.

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me know how I came across to you (unless I've on the other hand misunderstood you). My point in a nutshell is that there aren't moral obligations for Markus to make sure that everyone around him is aware or approving of his beliefs. Regardless of whether he actually wants to forge a philosophically aware social network or not, I'd suggest for him to be strategic about his efforts to elevate his relationships given that the environment has significant difficulties in all directions in this respect, especially at his age and state of origin. Obviously I'm all for the personal quest to an enlightened life and relationships but it doesn't mean that the only path is to show the tender parts of your flesh, roasted, with salt and black pepper on it to every drool dripping predator out there.

 

Now I'd like to point out that I'm by no means in the position to tell you what to do but I'm bringing out some facts and input that I believe is in the best interest of Markus. Obviously he has to decide this for himself.

 

Ja mukavas nähdä muita suomalaisia, aloin jo vähän huolestua etteikö Suomessa olisi yhtään FDR:än kuuntelijaa. Moderaattorit ei varmaan hirveesti tykkää, jos täällä rupee puhelee suomea liika. Eli eiköhän se tältä erää...

 

I reckon we are misunderstanding each other a bit here mate, 

 

Certainly I wasn't suggesting he should or shouldn't or indeed has any obligation to do anything, 

but quite simply that the more we peruse reason, virtue and self-knowledge in our lives, 

the more likely we are to find previously satisfying relationships deficient? 

 

.

[Markus FIN]

I wasn't attacking him for being anarcho-capitalist or wanting voluntary relationships - if that's what you're suggesting here, then there's been a miscommunication. The facts are that in order for him to have any kinds of social networks outside of his family, it's highly recommendable that he'd keep some of his beliefs away from some of the people in his life in this stage of his life. That doesn't mean that he ought not to seek more elevated relationships and/or diverge from some of the old ones, if and when he sees fit. I have to bring up the fact that Finland is a very patriotic country with a big state (we still have conscription [which he has to deal with one way or the other too], taxes across the roof etc.), with a population of circa 5 million in very low density with very little to non-existent libertarian history or active movement. It's an unfortunate place for a libertarian to say the least. As I said, I'm not trying to put him down or suggest living a life of complete fraud but to wait for the opportunities to get to that point without becoming a complete hermit. The way he went about it, as I quoted in my last post in this thread, was very self sabotaging and thus, ironically, even bordering detrimental to his future prospects of forging philosophically aware relationships as relationships in general may prove hard to make with such zealous output.

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me know how I came across to you (unless I've on the other hand misunderstood you). My point in a nutshell is that there aren't moral obligations for Markus to make sure that everyone around him is aware or approving of his beliefs. Regardless of whether he actually wants to forge a philosophically aware social network or not, I'd suggest for him to be strategic about his efforts to elevate his relationships given that the environment has significant difficulties in all directions in this respect, especially at his age and state of origin. Obviously I'm all for the personal quest to an enlightened life and relationships but it doesn't mean that the only path is to show the tender parts of your flesh, roasted, with salt and black pepper on it to every drool dripping predator out there.

 

Now I'd like to point out that I'm by no means in the position to tell you what to do but I'm bringing out some facts and input that I believe is in the best interest of Markus. Obviously he has to decide this for himself.

 

Ja mukavas nähdä muita suomalaisia, aloin jo vähän huolestua etteikö Suomessa olisi yhtään FDR:än kuuntelijaa. Moderaattorit ei varmaan hirveesti tykkää, jos täällä rupee puhelee suomea liika. Eli eiköhän se tältä erää...

Good posts, would give it a +1 reputation but it costs money so sorry but I won't. He understand the situation I am in and acknowledges that being a Libertarian is not an "on" or "off" type of situation.

 

Markus FIN

I reckon we are misunderstanding each other a bit here mate, 

 

Certainly I wasn't suggesting he should or shouldn't or indeed has any obligation to do anything, 

but quite simply that the more we peruse reason, virtue and self-knowledge in our lives, 

the more likely we are to find previously satisfying relationships deficient? 

 

.

It might but my friendships are still good enough for me and I will not shut them off yet. Perhaps later on I find new friends who fit me even better than the ones that I have now, but that will be in the future. To quote Merle Dixon: "You need to play with the hand you get and I only got one."

[TDB]

Minarchism in my opinion is a safe way to a totally free society. [...]If we went immediately from the current society to the Libertarian model of society, we would risk a chaos. Many people are so used to be living in a state that it would be impossible for them to deal in such a situation. A peaceful transaction from Statism to Libertarianism can only be achieved by taking it slow.

I agree it will be slow. The question is not will we end up with minarchism or anarchism, but will we move forward using political methods or non-political methods? I think even a minarchist would agree that politics is worthless in the US now. I am tempted to think it is a waste of time in other countries as well. I would trade 100 Rick Falkvinges for 1 Satoshi Nakamoto.When Rick does something, it looks cool and makes everyone feel good. But the copyright monopoly can undo it the next day. When Satoshi did something, the world changed, not everyone at once, but all at once, no turning back. We will gradually adjust to that change, each person at their own speed.

[J-William]

I am a Minarchist and I know some people here might hate me for it, but let me explain. This open letter is meant to be at least some point in history to be read by Stefan as I very much respect his opinion. Anyone else reading this please don't dislike the post if you think I am wrong, but rather state why by a reply. I am fully willing to change my views if someone can prove me wrong on this!

"prove me wrong"... that's a lot to ask in a forum post.

 

Have you joined the mafia and turned them to good? or joined the red-cross and turned them to a criminal gang?

 

 

minarcism has not accomplished a reduction in the size of the state. Do you have a strategy for getting minarchism to work?

 

Simple things like trying to reform the local school board are almost impossible, multiply that to the size of the US federal government and that's just silly.

[Markus FIN]

I agree it will be slow. The question is not will we end up with minarchism or anarchism, but will we move forward using political methods or non-political methods? I think even a minarchist would agree that politics is worthless in the US now. I am tempted to think it is a waste of time in other countries as well. I would trade 100 Rick Falkvinges for 1 Satoshi Nakamoto.When Rick does something, it looks cool and makes everyone feel good. But the copyright monopoly can undo it the next day. When Satoshi did something, the world changed, not everyone at once, but all at once, no turning back. We will gradually adjust to that change, each person at their own speed.

I agree that the US is pretty much hopeless now, but I still have not lost my faith with some European countries. But you could very well be right about the situation, it is just pretty depressing if it truly is so.

"prove me wrong"... that's a lot to ask in a forum post.Have you joined the mafia and turned them to good? or joined the red-cross and turned them to a criminal gang?minarcism has not accomplished a reduction in the size of the state. Do you have a strategy for getting minarchism to work?Simple things like trying to reform the local school board are almost impossible, multiply that to the size of the US federal government and that's just silly.

Please consider the fact that I see the US as a pretty much lost case already but I believe that there are still countries which can be changed via political means. If we want people to not vote like retards and a actually understand the situation then we need to get economics to be a school subject and replace social studies with it.

[TDB]

I agree that the US is pretty much hopeless now, but I still have not lost my faith with some European countries. But you could very well be right about the situation, it is just pretty depressing if it truly is so.

It seems depressing because your mind is still caught up in the old paradigm, "to change the world, you must take political action." You've learned that political action is unlikely to help you achieve what you want, and you feel denied, powerless. But you've only learned half of the secret, at best. You've learned that you've been tricked and the people around you have been tricked, but you haven't yet mastered the truth. The truth is not that you are helpless, the truth is you have to take a different path and apply some creativity in order to make a difference. The truth is it won't be easy, but neither is it impossible. If we were helpless, there would be no cryptography, no bitcoin, no system d, no pot smokers, no FDR, hell, no Internet. This challenges us to find our own way to matter. But it also enables us to find our own way, and to matter.It can also be depressing to feel like you are the only person in your entire country who believes what you believe, to feel like an outsider. I'm not sure how to advise you about that, it is a tough situation.

[Markus FIN]

It seems depressing because your mind is still caught up in the old paradigm, "to change the world, you must take political action." You've learned that political action is unlikely to help you achieve what you want, and you feel denied, powerless. But you've only learned half of the secret, at best. You've learned that you've been tricked and the people around you have been tricked, but you haven't yet mastered the truth. The truth is not that you are helpless, the truth is you have to take a different path and apply some creativity in order to make a difference. The truth is it won't be easy, but neither is it impossible. If we were helpless, there would be no cryptography, no bitcoin, no system d, no pot smokers, no FDR, hell, no Internet. This challenges us to find our own way to matter. But it also enables us to find our own way, and to matter.It can also be depressing to feel like you are the only person in your entire country who believes what you believe, to feel like an outsider. I'm not sure how to advise you about that, it is a tough situation.

Thanks for the advice and it is true that political action seems inefficient, even more so if the decisions that are proposed are SMART decisions. Guess we just need to try and change ourselves bit by bit and see whether or not others will join us or ditch us. Also I am a bit skeptical about changing your way of life overnight as that may cause your friends and family to be shocked and deny your actions or even worse leave you. I have been taking it slow and I have presented some of my Libertarian ideas to the people around me and there have been many kinds of reactions. My Socialist friend obviously says that I have gone completely off the rock and he wants me to tell him why I think Libertarianism is a working concept. My friends are completely neutral to it and it doesn't really matter to them. My parents are a bit annoyed that I am becoming a "fundamentalist" but they say that they respect my choice as long as I don't attempt to force feed them my political views. I guess by time we will see how they warm up to my ideas and who knows, I might even change my ideas completely while in the process. I am still going to follow politics as I find them interesting and I occasionally stop to discuss with politicians at their public appearances. I like to talk to all of them, the Liberals, the Socialists, the Conservatives, the Populists, the Environmentalists and the Communists. Today I spent about a half an our debating with a Communist politician about whether or not the right to own or the free market overall is an ethical concept. He had good points and we actually ended up in mutually beneficial conclusion which was a HUGE surprise to the both of us! I got a bit annoyed as he called me a Capitalist all the time even when I was yet to tell him my views but was simply asking and criticizing his... But it all came out just fine and we both went out merry ways.

 

In Finland it is easy to just walk up to a famous politician and have a discuss with him before the elections. They are just chilling at the election stands ready to answer any questions or engage in a conversation with those who are interested. And not just the small politicians as I even once talked to the prime minister of Finland, Jyrki Katainen! They all (well most of them) have good arguments and I like to talk to them because it both gives me new information and points of view and allows me to create more and better counter-arguments. I go out to even the most fanatic Statists and sit down to hear their views and express mine.

 

Most of that last part had nothing to do with what we were talking about but I just wrote it in there anyway as it doesn't hurt anyone.

[TDB]

Guess we just need to try and change ourselves bit by bit and see whether or not others will join us or ditch us. Also I am a bit skeptical about changing your way of life overnight as that may cause your friends and family to be shocked and deny your actions or even worse leave you.

What sort of life changes are you thinking of?When I first began thinking of myself as a libertarian, I thought, "now I should convince everyone to agree with me and we will elect smart people who will fix things." I tried that, and continued to learn, and realized that was not going to work, so I switched to "I should convince everyone and we will reform the system so it isn't so broken." That did not work so well, but I continued learning. I noticed things like PGP, BitTorrent, and bitcoin. These changed the world in important and largely positive ways, but they were done by one person, or small groups of persons, who did not ask permission, or convince anyone in advance, or make arguments. If they had required agreement from more than a handful of people, their projects never would have existed. They changed the world first, and let people's ideas and opinions catch up later. So that is the sort of thing I am looking for now, something where I can just do something and it is done. If by some bizarre miraculous accident I gained some political power, I would not repeal all the stupid laws or defund all the useless bureaucracies. I would just make it possible for some small region to gain immunity from outside laws. Let the people who are frightened of terrorism and economic change do what they have been doing, let people who want to try something new have their own Hong Kong. During the 50s and 60s, people would escape from mainland China to go to Hong Kong, to escape the tyranny and poverty. Hong Kong was a great annoyance to the Chinese political leaders, because it was a nearly deserted fishing village when the British took it over, and was still comparable to the Chinese mainland in the 40s. But people overcame their propagandized suspicion of the British and voted with their feet. I think the existence of Hong Kong restrained the Chinese government, and helped the reforms of the late 70s to survive. Not to mention how the people of Hong Kong prospered.The real enemies of freedom are the intolerant ideas in people's minds. I am looking for ways to encourage tolerance of experiments. Once people see something works, they stop objecting to it. So the challenge is to be allowed to show them what works and what doesn't.

My parents are a bit annoyed that I am becoming a "fundamentalist" but they say that they respect my choice as long as I don't attempt to force feed them my political views.

That sounds a bit condescending. So they no longer enjoy discussing politics with you?

I like to talk to all of them, the Liberals, the Socialists, the Conservatives, the Populists, the Environmentalists and the Communists. [...]In Finland it is easy to just walk up to a famous politician and have a discuss with him before the elections. [...]. I go out to even the most fanatic Statists and sit down to hear their views and express mine.

Sounds like fun.

[Markus FIN]

What sort of life changes are you thinking of?When I first began thinking of myself as a libertarian, I thought, "now I should convince everyone to agree with me and we will elect smart people who will fix things." I tried that, and continued to learn, and realized that was not going to work, so I switched to "I should convince everyone and we will reform the system so it isn't so broken." That did not work so well, but I continued learning. I noticed things like PGP, BitTorrent, and bitcoin. These changed the world in important and largely positive ways, but they were done by one person, or small groups of persons, who did not ask permission, or convince anyone in advance, or make arguments. If they had required agreement from more than a handful of people, their projects never would have existed. They changed the world first, and let people's ideas and opinions catch up later. So that is the sort of thing I am looking for now, something where I can just do something and it is done. If by some bizarre miraculous accident I gained some political power, I would not repeal all the stupid laws or defund all the useless bureaucracies. I would just make it possible for some small region to gain immunity from outside laws. Let the people who are frightened of terrorism and economic change do what they have been doing, let people who want to try something new have their own Hong Kong. During the 50s and 60s, people would escape from mainland China to go to Hong Kong, to escape the tyranny and poverty. Hong Kong was a great annoyance to the Chinese political leaders, because it was a nearly deserted fishing village when the British took it over, and was still comparable to the Chinese mainland in the 40s. But people overcame their propagandized suspicion of the British and voted with their feet. I think the existence of Hong Kong restrained the Chinese government, and helped the reforms of the late 70s to survive. Not to mention how the people of Hong Kong prospered.The real enemies of freedom are the intolerant ideas in people's minds. I am looking for ways to encourage tolerance of experiments. Once people see something works, they stop objecting to it. So the challenge is to be allowed to show them what works and what doesn't.That sounds a bit condescending. So they no longer enjoy discussing politics with you?Sounds like fun.

They didn't really before either, even when we agreed because of the sheer frustration and amount of energy that it takes. Thinking about the great truths of the world (after i got interested in those) can be exhausting to some people. :/And yes it A LOT of fun! :3

[ausppc]

On the topic of minarchists...  Larken Rose is after some of them for a project... 

 

Larken Rose22 hours agoWhile multitasking and having several discussions at once, I just had a really odd idea. I've done it before, but never in public. I want to find minarchists to debate, but with me playing the part of devout statist. I can't explain WHY this is so entertaining, without spoiling it, but from the PRO-authoritarian position, it's pretty easy to make minarchists contradict themselves and fall on their faces. So where is a minarchist or two who wants to go against me in the role of Uber-Statist?

https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7/posts/1417637515182719

[Artensa]

In the Bronze level donator podcasts there are two shows called "Troll Spotting". I suggest that those who have it available to them listen to them because I feel as if the poster here showed a few signs that Stef talked about. It is atleast worth considering what Stef had to say in these podcasts before posting in this thread.