I'm fly, I'm pilot

[cdc3rd]

 

Howdy.
I've been listening to FDR for about six months now and am really glad I found this valuable source of information. I recently set up a auto donation to help out a bit every month and decided to check out the board after getting the "thank you" email.

 

I started down the whole libertarian track a few years ago when I discovered "Penn and Teller's: Bullshit" show. I found that I agreed with a lot of their arguments and started to follow Penn. From there I found out about Ayn Rand and read all of her stuff. I'm really not sure how I first discovered Stefan, but I somehow did.

 

I am a military pilot and find that my personal beliefs conflict with my career. I have yet to actually face something that has forced me to act in a way that I think would be wrong, but I'm not sure that will last the rest of my career. I did swear an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," but I feel that most treat that as lip service. (I know I should have affirmed, but yey for not sticking out)

Fun times ahead, I'm sure.

 

Anyways... Hello!

 

(I noticed that FireFox's spell check doesn't work in this text input box, booooooooo)

[MrCapitalism]

Welcome!

I'm a civilian pilot myself. Of course I've been asked a lot why I didn't go the military route. My decision partly has to do with the ethical issues you're facing right now.

[cdc3rd]

Welcome!

 

I'm a civilian pilot myself. Of course I've been asked a lot why I didn't go the military route. My decision partly has to do with the ethical issues you're facing right now.

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, my outlook on life has changed since I joined. All I was thinking in the beginning was "what would be the most awesome job ever?"

I'm not saying I want out at all. I'm happy with where I am. We will just see what happens down the line. I will just always try to be the voice of reason.

 

Going the civilian route has to be a lot more difficult. Do you fly for a living or just for fun?

[Matt D]

Hello, 

 

Happy that you decided to support the show with your brains and your nickels!

 

Penn and Teller cover some interesting topics on their show but I don't remember the mention of Ayn Rand. Do you find that other pilots are receptive to libertarianism?

[PatrickC]

Hi cd, welcome

 

I'm a civilian pilot myself.

 

And there was me thinking that was your gaming/Skype headset.. Damn, all is revealed now.

[cdc3rd]

Penn and Teller cover some interesting topics on their show but I don't remember the mention of Ayn Rand. Do you find that other pilots are receptive to libertarianism?

 

Penn mentioned her in the podcast he was doing a few years ago. The name of it was Penn Point.

He now does Penn's Sunday School and I listen to that every week.

 

Penn also was a guest on John Stossel's show a few times and Stossel had an episode about Rand.

 

As far as other pilots being receptive to libertarianism, I would have to say that I wouldn't know because I haven't tried to share my political beliefs with many. I'm still a low ranking officer, so I keep my opinions to myself for the most part. Politics aren't talked about much where I work, believe it or not. If I had to say that among the younger officers, the trend is apathy.

 

I have really only met one other military pilot that was straight up libertarian and that was a fan of Ayn Rand.

[Carl Green]

Hi cdc3rd, welcome to the FDR community

 

 

I am a military pilot and find that my personal beliefs conflict with my career. I have yet to actually face something that has forced me to act in a way that I think would be wrong, but I'm not sure that will last the rest of my career. I did swear an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," but I feel that most treat that as lip service. (I know I should have affirmed, but yey for not sticking out)

 

Have you given much thought as to the source of your paycheck?  I noticed you mentioned you don't want out of the military so I can assume you're okay with where the money you're spending is coming from.

 

If you were ordered to do something that you considered wrong, what is your game plan?

[cdc3rd]

Have you given much thought as to the source of your paycheck?  I noticed you mentioned you don't want out of the military so I can assume you're okay with where the money you're spending is coming from.

 

If you were ordered to do something that you considered wrong, what is your game plan?

Yeah, I realize where my paychecks come from. Money is taken, stolen, from the people in the form of taxes and given to the giant government machine from which I get a piece of.

National Defense is one of the few things I think the federal government should do, however the funding of it should be voluntary. There is nothing I can do about that right now. If I wasn't in this position, someone else (probably less qualified and less of a fan of freedom) would be. If I was fired tomorrow because people woke up and decided to shink government, I wouldn't complain at all.

 

As far as doing something I consider wrong, I won't know until I'm presented with that situation. If it is something illegal, I sure as hell won't do it. I want to be able to have anything I ever do be posted on the front page of the paper and be proud of what I've done.

[MrCapitalism]

Going the civilian route has to be a lot more difficult. Do you fly for a living or just for fun?

I fly for a living. I currently fly as a co-pilot for a United States regional airline.

 

Actually I imagined that the military route was much more difficult. Another argument against flying in the military was my belief in how stringent the selection process was. By the time I decided that I wanted to fly (20) I had already wasted a lot of time at college. I imagined that flying in the military involved at least entering as an officer, and then somehow managing to be selected for flight training... which I've heard is one of the most competitive programs to get into. Military aviation just wasn't something I was interested in doing, and I was sure wasn't interested in me.

 

EDIT: The civilian route has fewer barriers to entry, but makes up for it with the long term struggle. My canned response is, "I found a bank stupid enough to lend me to money for flight training," and that's literally how easy it was to get started. Of course this was 2006-7 and I think the financial institutions have learned how well those loans perform, and I can't imagine it's very good. This route could be a struggle, but I've learned some lessons and am basically living a minimalist lifestyle to support my flying habit. I think the key for me is to manage expectations. I have friends who are making double what I make right out of school, and I have other friends that are in dire financial straights.. so I really can't complain too much about where I am. Especially when I actually enjoy being at work (as opposed to the sacrifices in my personal life).

 

 

You didn't mention so I thought I'd ask, what type of flying do you do for the military? No need to name a specific type of equipment or service if you don't want, but just to get an understanding of the type of mission you perform. Fixed wing? Helo? Transport? AAR? AWACS?

[cdc3rd]

I fly for a living. I currently fly as a co-pilot for a United States regional airline.

 

Actually I imagined that the military route was much more difficult. Another argument against flying in the military was my belief in how stringent the selection process was. By the time I decided that I wanted to fly (20) I had already wasted a lot of time at college. I imagined that flying in the military involved at least entering as an officer, and then somehow managing to be selected for flight training... which I've heard is one of the most competitive programs to get into. Military aviation just wasn't something I was interested in doing, and I was sure wasn't interested in me.

 

(will update later, have to go to work today)

Well, both sides have trade offs.

Strating out on a reginal airliner after paying a ton for flight training has to be a drag. I hear those guys make in the low $20k/year to start out. Military O-1s start out at $35k/year + a housing allowance + other pay.

Some of the advantage of military are the high(er) pay, free training, and job security.

 

Getting a pilot slot is pretty competitive. I never ever thought I would be a pilot before I applied.

You can actually apply to officer school (once you have a bachelor's) for a specific officer job. I only had two things listed on my application, pilot and CSO, and I got picked up for pilot. (In other words, I applied to be a pilot and knew I had a pilot slot before I ever signed my contract)

 

You didn't mention so I thought I'd ask, what type of flying do you do for the military? No need to name a specific type of equipment or service if you don't want, but just to get an understanding of the type of mission you perform. Fixed wing? Helo? Transport? AAR? AWACS?

I really don't want to be specific. I in no way want to give any impressions that I represent my service or my airframe.

Let's just say you've probably never head of what I fly and I couldn't tell you anything about our mission publicly, anyway.

[Carl Green]

Hi cdc3rd,

 

I'm quite critical in my replies below (in green) so I want to preface this by  saying that I appreciate you and that I want the best for you and for you to be as happy as possible. This won't come across in text but I assure you it's there. My intent is not to make you think you're wrong, just to try and be a check to your justifications and rational thought process.

 

 

Yeah, I realize where my paychecks come from. Money is taken, stolen, from the people in the form of taxes and given to the giant government machine from which I get a piece of.

 

This is where you add the but. But the but is just short for "but I justify it because..."

National Defense is one of the few things I think the federal government should do, however the funding of it should be voluntary. There is nothing I can do about that right now. If I wasn't in this position, someone else (probably less qualified and less of a fan of freedom) would be. If I was fired tomorrow because people woke up and decided to shink government, I wouldn't complain at all.

Are you at least flying for the national guard?  Regardless, by this logic, you're saying it's good for you to be stealing from people indirectly so that someone else doesn't steal from people indirectly. If you're okay with being fired tomorrow, and you feel that this job conflicts with your personal beliefs, why not just fire yourself?
 
As far as doing something I consider wrong, I won't know until I'm presented with that situation. If it is something illegal, I sure as hell won't do it. I want to be able to have anything I ever do be posted on the front page of the paper and be proud of what I've done.

What about doing something rationally immoral? Something being "illegal" is just a description of an action that's on a piece of paper somewhere which says someone can imprison you for doing that action. As for the front page, refer back to the first two sentences you wrote here.

[cdc3rd]

Good points, Carl. Don't worry about being critical. I'm here to learn. Pretty much all of my military education has been along the lines of this video:

I disagree with you about me being the one stealing from the people. I did not vote for the taxes, I do not collect the taxes, and I do not enforce domestic tax laws. I don't know how to justify it. I'm filling a job that "the people" said needed to exist. Right now I'm not willing to say that everyone in the military is a theif for getting paid with tax dollars. It looks like I'll have to do some more thinking on that point.

 

As far as the "fire yourself" thing, it doesn't work like that. I have about eight years left in my active duty service commitment. I believe they'd put me in jail for a while if I decided to stop showing up. (Pilot training is extremely expensive, $1 mil+. They don't want people getting their wings and then leaving to go work in the private sector so there is a ten year service commitment)

 

I'm not saying I do not like my job. In fact, I love where I am and am proud of the work I have done to get this far. I consider myself extremely lucky. The way things work are not ideally how I would like them to, but the conflicts with my beliefs are not severe enough for me to take action at this moment. I'm hoping by going this route that I will actually be in a position to make a difference in the future.

[Matt D]

Cdc3rd: I hope you don't think we're ganging up on you but you had to have known what people would say if you came to an anarchist forum and tried to justify remaining employed by the military. 

 

 

 

National Defense is one of the few things I think the federal government should do, however the funding of it should be voluntary. 

 

 

Some questions I would like to challenge you on:

 

If the funding of defense were to be voluntary then would the institution implementing the defense still be called a government? And would the area being defended still be called a nation?

 

Does the existence of defense as a service depend on whether or not you think it should be supplied? In a free market situation wouldn't large-scale defense either be supplied or not be supplied depending on demand? 

[Carl Green]

I disagree with you about me being the one stealing from the people.

You left out the word indirectly. Sure, you're not the one forcing me to pay taxes which you receive as payment.

 

I did not vote for the taxes, I do not collect the taxes, and I do not enforce domestic tax laws.

Okay and thanks, but it's still irrelevant to where your paycheck is coming from.

 

 I don't know how to justify it.

This is because you can't. You just simply can not justify receiving money that was not willingly given, regardless of whether or not you wanted it to be taken or not. I'm sorry to hear it would be so difficult to quit. This must be an overwhelming motivation to try to justify (or just avoid justifying) your actions.