Are The French Doomed To Enslavement ?

[Jays]

Hi,

My name is Julien (or Julian), I was born in Birmingham, AL and for most of my life have been living in Bordeaux, France.

 

So France is this wonderful country *cough sarcasm cough* where being an entrepeneur or having your own business is the hardest and most depressing thing because of endless licensing, massive regulations etc... a place where cops can legally harass you anytime, where the free market is seen as the enemy and laws and government as solutions for any problem. The problem is: the vast majority of people here have this way of thinking in which they inevitably think that any problem, small or large, can and must be solved through government action. For example, I heard of this law that is going to pass to FORBID all you can drink soda fountains in restaurants, and when I talked about it with a friend, she said it's a good thing because "people are getting fat" which made me laugh because, French people ? Fat ?! But then I felt sorry for her thinking that violence is the solution...

 

The point is that when I want to spread the message of peace, libertarianism and the NAP, what usually happens is I either get booed, or I get accused of wishing for an apocalyptic disaster, even if I only talk about less government in X or privatization of X (like water & electricity, the horror). Nobody here admits that taxation is theft or that laws are only enforced through violence (few do, but say it's "justified"). More rights to protect yourself ? "You're an American gun nut". Enough with the labor unions, licensing and regulations on businesses ? "You just want workers to be exploited". Privatize the schools ? "You just want the poor to be uneducated".

 

This is what I'm up against. So I would like to know what y'all think: is there anything I can do to be more convincing to folks with this set of mind ? Is there any way to make people here look into libertarianism and peaceful resolutions ? Or should I give up on Bureaucracyland and go back to America to finish my studies ?

[Better Future]

I would say that what you are attempting to do in France is equivalent to walking up a river with a very strong current. I call it cultural momentum. Do you think you could reverse the flow of a river? That usually takes massive geological upheaval. In this case that would be equivalent to the economic collapse of France. 

 

You want to move to America? Why not Switzerland, Hong Kong or Singapore?

[J. D. Stembal]

Ideologically, I don't think America is really all that different except for the private gun ownership. France has the advantage of not being very obese, so the country doesn't need the universal healthcare it has.

 

 

[Jays]

Indeed, there is no need for the actual healthcare system that so many are proud of. It is one of the most expensive things coming out of people's taxes and if you ask me, I've seen better technology and services in America when it comes to the medical field. Of course telling people why or how healthcare could be better and cheaper would make a lot of angry faces, because the French are so proud of this "universal system".

[DSEngere]

I feel for you man, that sounds very frustrating. In fact, I know for a fact how frustrating it is, because I live that struggle basically every day. It's so hard to talk to hardcore statists because under every terrible idea are 10 more supporting it, so you really do have your work cut out for you. I have chosen to take my ideas to Youtube in hopes of gaining more converts, however I haven't stopped the in-person interactions either (they're just incredibly wearisome). 

Keep up the good fight! Eventually you will get a couple converts, and then you can sleep in the satisfaction that you have worked hard and created one more liberty advocate who will help to change the world, albeit slowly. I applaud you! 

[QueechoFeecho]

It isn't really that much different in the US.  Sure, one half of the supposed political dichotomy claims to support less government, but they don't.  They just encourage a different kind of big government than the other side.  Guns?  Ok.  Gay marriage and less imperialism?  No.  Then the Ds:  Guns? No.  Gay marriage?  Ok.  Less imperialism?  Let's talk about something else.

 

It's obvious we'd land here (and I think it is getting worse, with the internet being the flicker of hope), because, as one of my favorite anti-powers-that-be rappers, Payday Monsanto said in his song "National Emergency":

we own your banks, your education, military and news,

while you focus on scandals and the latest hairdos

[aviet]

This is a very interesting first post, with some through provoking comments.

I called that France would be the first NW-European nation to fall into considerable decay and it seems that has come true, or at least is coming true.

If I was you, my primary goal would be to leave France. I am in the UK, though leaving in 4 weeks. The UK is better than France. There are far more avenues for negotiating the government dragnet, buts its still tiring. Siwtzerland, Monaco, Liechtenstein, Hong Kong and Singapore seem the best bets for now if they are accessible to you.

I like Better Future's comment. We often want to try and take on the problems of the world or a region, but it is far too much. Trying to change people's minds, especially in France, is far too much of an undertaking for one person. I'd rather move to where more more like-minded people can be found.

I've heard all the arguments you have reprinted. It's just far too much for the average reactionary-statist to be able to consider - to have all they have taken "as is" and throw it out the window. I would suggest a much slower approach and crank it up over time. I was with two guys tonight, who as far as I know both just voted for Labour, the UK-version of the Democrats. However, neither of them are reactionary liberals. They are reactionary statists who think there needs to be yet more government to offset people who only care about the economy. They were talking about Conservative Party promises that they agreed with. I threw in, "How about getting rid of corporate tax?" You can imagine the reaction, but I went onto phrase it for them within the context of a statist paradigm, i.e. mentioning that if you tax corporations/businesses you are cutting off the point of production. If you leave the business with all its profits, it will likely produce more, hire more people, buy more stuff. You will end up with higher production and you can then tax the beneficiaries via wages and dividends to get more income. This took some explaining to these average Brits who have practically no economic grounding. They looked for the holes in my logic, thinking that business owners would just leave money rotting in their company rather than do anything with it. They didn't understand anything, such as that by investing in your business, you still own the net worth, which will go up more than the investment if the business is solid. I don't think either were sold on it, but it certainly made them think considerably outside their own boxes of boxes provided to them by MSM.

Unfortunately, that is the best that can be done. I don't know anything better than spoon-feeding small drops of liberty to people. Giving them a full dose just doesn't work. I find statists have what I think of as disparate islands they asses various issues on. There is no continuity to their thinking and suggested use of force. An underlying principle is upheld in one area then ignored in another. There is no logic to their muddled lack of philosophy and this could be a major reason why it is so difficult to get through to statists. You may be able to communicate to them the benefits of more freedom in a small area. But that is irrelevant. It seems to be all about changing the parameters, which in their view, when enforced, will result in the best results; as if providing a narrow corridor for possible activity allows for what works best to even be discovered.

Shaking the statist mindset very rarely happens. People generally fall back to saying, "Oh, we just need another government scheme."

[Donnadogsoth]

Never mind statism, I thought this thread was going to be about Islam.  That's the worse threat, if you ask me.

[AccuTron]

Never mind statism, I thought this thread was going to be about Islam.  That's the worse threat, if you ask me.

Or that they blend over time.

[Magnetic Synthesizer]

Hi,

My name is Julien (or Julian), I was born in Birmingham, AL and for most of my life have been living in Bordeaux, France.

 

So France is this wonderful country *cough sarcasm cough* where being an entrepeneur or having your own business is the hardest and most depressing thing because of endless licensing, massive regulations etc... a place where cops can legally harass you anytime, where the free market is seen as the enemy and laws and government as solutions for any problem. The problem is: the vast majority of people here have this way of thinking in which they inevitably think that any problem, small or large, can and must be solved through government action. For example, I heard of this law that is going to pass to FORBID all you can drink soda fountains in restaurants, and when I talked about it with a friend, she said it's a good thing because "people are getting fat" which made me laugh because, French people ? Fat ?! But then I felt sorry for her thinking that violence is the solution...

 

The point is that when I want to spread the message of peace, libertarianism and the NAP, what usually happens is I either get booed, or I get accused of wishing for an apocalyptic disaster, even if I only talk about less government in X or privatization of X (like water & electricity, the horror). Nobody here admits that taxation is theft or that laws are only enforced through violence (few do, but say it's "justified"). More rights to protect yourself ? "You're an American gun nut". Enough with the labor unions, licensing and regulations on businesses ? "You just want workers to be exploited". Privatize the schools ? "You just want the poor to be uneducated".

 

This is what I'm up against. So I would like to know what y'all think: is there anything I can do to be more convincing to folks with this set of mind ? Is there any way to make people here look into libertarianism and peaceful resolutions ? Or should I give up on Bureaucracyland and go back to America to finish my studies ?

If you want to help be effective.

 

If you can't win, you are wasting the asset you are.

Move out of the worse countries into better ones.

Let the worse countries have their dream state, don't worry. They chose it.

Let some states fall apart as quicik as possible so they cna serve as an example. Meanwhie, lets try to keep some 'heavens' working.

[Magnetic Synthesizer]

On the side, my econ instructor said the french are brown nosers. The meaning he used was deferance to authority. Seeing some of their videos, seems legit.

 

 

The spanking must be real, are you sure you don't want to be entertained by that ?

 

[Spaceballs]

I'm not so sure that the main problem in France is the Government.  More like a small community that controls the Government.  Even with its huge bureaucracy France is still among the top 10 country in the world.  Their education system seems to produce really good engineers, financial mathematicians, computer sciences compared to Canada (from my experience with about 50 or so Frenchman that immigrated).  Their knowledge surpasses us by big margin.
 

France does not know, but we are at war with America. Yes, a permanent war, a vital war, an economic war, a war without death apparently. Yes, they are very hard the Americans, they are voracious, they want power sharing on the world. It is an unknown war, a war permanent, without death apparently and yet a war to death.  

-- Francois Mitterand

The Last Mitterrand by Georges - Marc Benamou
Date of publication: 27/1/1997
Editor: Plon - Omnibus

Eurozone & European Union, NATO (imposed by non-French citizen) and a small non elected community ruined France.

[Waffles]

Bias Alert: this is my opinion, but I'm gonna say it. I haven't lived in france, but I get the impression that they are very nationalistic. They think that France is the center of the universe, and everywhere else sucks, and because of this they are united, so the the socialist/statist system almost works for them, and add this this to their sense of cultural superiority and you have a fabulous recipe for unprecedented bone headedness. What do you think?

[dsayers]

is there anything I can do to be more convincing to folks with this set of mind ?

If you say X to somebody and they hear not X, there's a breakdown in communication. In the specific examples you mentioned, they are telling you that they refuse to be convinced. So no, there isn't a better way of convincing somebody who refuses to be convinced. If anything, the "better way" would be to accept this and move on. It's triage.

 

If you haven't already, check out Stef's Bomb in the Brain series. It's important to understand WHY people think what they do. If it's not by way of logic, reason, or evidence, then using these things to dissuade them won't work. It's like trying to use a hammer to turn a screw.

[Spaceballs]

Bias Alert: this is my opinion, but I'm gonna say it. I haven't lived in france, but I get the impression that they are very nationalistic. They think that France is the center of the universe, and everywhere else sucks, and because of this they are united, so the the socialist/statist system almost works for them, and add this this to their sense of cultural superiority and you have a fabulous recipe for unprecedented bone headedness. What do you think?

As a Canadian that traveled and watch a lot of news in France and USA.  If you want to talk about Nationalism, center of the Universe and bone headedness, they pale compared to Americans.  

One major difference is that they have a history and culture to back it up.

Us, North Americans, have no boundaries, huge lands and more freedom to make something new and good about it.  Europe is old and therefore stucked with bourgeois, oligarchs, royalties etc.