regevdl Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 Man is this election cycle interesting and sort of exciting. Now, don't get me wrong...I'm an anarcho capitalist so this changes none of that but I enjoy observing and interacting with the statist to try to get them to think amongst the chaos. I have actually succeeded in not only getting through to some to get them to actually listen (maybe not agree but have a pleasant convo) but I had a few of them actually step out of the statist indulegence of political advocacy and at least peak behind the door of anarcho-capitalism. I rarely reveal my 'persuasion' unless they ask me directly. I keep it ambiguous and simply stick to the mental exercises to snap them out of the rhetoric. I will share some of my tactics. And I go in with low or reasonable expectations. I don't expect them to go from statist to non statist by the end of the conversation. I go in hoping to give them pause, thought and insight that will hopefully carry with them and be a beacon in their brain even after the fuss of elections that will draw them towards their path to find their answers....which of course I hope will be anarcho-caplitalism or 'worst case' libertariansim. And this was mostly with Bernie supporters! Here's how I did it, this is my general forumula: Bernie supporter: I don't support him because of the free stuff.... (we've all heard this one) Me: So you voted for Ron Paul in 2012? Bernie Supporter: No, why? Me: He was basically Bernie without free stuff.. Bernie Supporter: ..... oh Me: Yeah, it's best to not look at which party line these people choose to run on because of the Commission of Presidential Debates. BS: the what? Me: The Commision of Presidential Debates, it's common knowledge for those who follow actual anti-establishment candidates as they have been known to expose this outright or at least the symptoms of it. Look it up and make your own judgment but it's the reason why Donald Trump, or your guy Bernie Sanders is even running on main party tickets and don't really have the 'freedom' to run as a third party, so it's odd that Bernie doesn't point that out and Trump actually has, Ron Paul has, Ralph Nader has. You can see how they treat people who expose this and Trump is actually getting further than any of the others, which is incredible and will expose the level to which the establishment will go to try to shut him down or steer people away from him. BS: I'll look into it. Me: yes. Look...I don't agree with B.S. but I wish he could run in whatever party he seems fits his platform the best. I loath the 2 party monopoly and I would rather work together with all the voters on this issue than bet on the horse-race. Exposing this would liberate voters from the 2 party monopoly and liberate future candidates so they can run on any party ticket they want without being blocked from media and getting their message out and they can speak as frankly and be their genuine selves without having to be P.C. all the time. BS: Makes sense. Another approach: BS: Free college....help the poor....bla bla bla...I'm donating to BS Now! Let's do this! Activate your friends...get them to donate, buy merch.! Me: Wow, that's incredible how much effort, time and resource such as your money or expertise and energy to rally people to voluntarily give their money to a man for a cause you believe in. BS: Yes....we really believe he's the one to finally...bla bla bla Me: Great. Tell me, have you ever put this much effort in actually helping a poor person or the poor or needy in general? BS: ............avoids question completely. Me: I mean I look at Bernie. He has a lot of interesting things to say, he's seems like a nice and likable guy, he knows how to rally young people, he cares about the disenfranchised and you guys are willing to help him in this cause and you work together, voluntarily to raise him hundreds of millions of dollars! That's incredible! BS: It really is. I mean when you care about these issues you do whatever.... bla bla bla Me: I get it. I guess my only question is, how many poor people could this effort to raise his hundreds of millions actually help if it was given to them or given to the proper organizations directly? How many studen loans could this campaign money pay off? How many private school tuitions for poor kids could this pay for? How many medical bills could this pay off for people? BS: ..........How much time do you put in to help the poor? Me: (gives list of my effots) BS: Well...there aren't many people like you and why we need....bla bla bla Me: But wait...there are. I mean Bernie's campaign proves how many there are and there are MORE because I don't support BS and do my share and know many others, that's the point. BS:...... Me: I just find it to be a charity with high overhead BS: what do you mean? Me: Well you put in all this time and effort and get everyone involved to raise a LOAD of cash for the guy you want to solve the inequality problem. Then you hope he wins the nomination and dump more money into his campaign. Then you hope he wins the election and dump more money into the campaign. Then once he's president you hope Congress will pass his policies and if he does, it's been several hundreds of millions and then they need to tax everyone to make this plan work when he had people willing to VOLUNTARILY work and donate to help poor people but refused to open a charity with the guy or use this momentum to actually go out and do it. Every month that he brings in tens of millions and it doesn't go to poor people or uneducated people is another day of hypocricy. BS: I..... I mean.... yeah but.... I don't even know what to say. Me: Me neither. Ther eis no reason you and all of his supporters can't do this as an actual charity rather than (and this applies to all campaigns) go out and use the same effort and cooperation and volunterrism to solve the issues you find most important. But you are rallying for political power and force to help when you already prove the voluntarism WORKS, otherwise the guy wouldn't have a dime to his campaign. BS: ......... stunned silent. Me: If you have more to respond later once this sinks in, i'm available to listen but never forget how well voluntarism has helped you help him to help the poor...but it's a WHOLE lot of overhad and risk that has no or little guarantee when you could just simply....help the poor. And another one: Me: How will we pay for all of Bernie's plans? BS: Wallstreet, taxes and future generations. Me: Having the future pay for it doesn't bother you? BS: No, why should it. that's very common thing and guarantees we can get what we need and what' sbest...bla bla bla Me: Well, then you are simply enslaving the children. Could you look a child in the eye and at least explain to them the implications and ask their permission before you sell their future wealth? BS: oh that's ridiculous. Me: I know, so you are taking without asking or you couldn't live with yourself to have to face them in the eye while you take their future wealth knowing they have no idea what's going on or the implications. Me: tell me, do you enjoy now having to pay for past decisions that use your tax dollars today but you receive no benefits for? BS: Huh? ME: Well, most of the income tax goes to interest on borrowed money and this is for things that were voted on when you and I were too young or not even born yet and certainly couldn't vote on. Those benefits have been used up, are not available for you and me and we are still paying for them. And you are sitting here complaining that our generation is out of money or it's unevenly distributed and we have no benefits or not enough. Don't you see the problem you are repeating? BS: yea but the money is spent anyway so what does it matter ME: that we can have some moral, ethical integrity and disciple to at least be the generation that stopped this cycle. Our elders sold our future and we feel now what that is like and you have no problem doing the same to the future? Are you giving any guarantee that they future who will be held to pay for this will have anything left for them or how long do you want this cycle to go on? BS: I guess I can see how paying for the past decisions I wasn't a part of didn't work well for this generation. Me: Exactly and if you have kids or think of having kids, this is the exact posiiton or feeling you will be heiring to them. Now you call yourself moral and good and altruistic. Do you think our elders were moral and good and altruisitc when they made these decisions for you to pay for? BS: absolutely not. Me: ok. so you can feel moral and good now but when your children grow up, they will see you as freeloading jerks as we see our elders. Bs: yea...I guess that's true. Sometimes I ask if they think money is private property. Typically...as leftists do...they ask me WHY I'm asking. That is so they can scan and try to sniff out any advantage and wiggle and move the goal posts. But I just ask them again until they leave the conversation or answer me. of course it always ends with them realizing that taxation is theft. Doesn't mean they will instantly switch to libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism but at least they have come to terms with taxation is theft. ...always a good start. 1
yuanqufucius Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 Excellent read, I will most definitely apply this tactics. There needs to be a training camp for this. Putting forth logical consistent argument is so much work. Bernie Sanders -> B.S. -> "I don't support B.S." I see what you did there. 1
regevdl Posted March 18, 2016 Author Posted March 18, 2016 Excellent read, I will most definitely apply this tactics. There needs to be a training camp for this. Putting forth logical consistent argument is so much work. Bernie Sanders -> B.S. -> "I don't support B.S." I see what you did there. Thanks. I am glad it is helpful/useful lol. Actually only after I wrote it a few times did I make the Bernie Sanders B.S. 'pun'. It was completely unintentional as I was focused on the principles and accurately and succinctly presenting my method but at the end I also chortled when I caught it. ha ha gret minds think alike! Excellent read, I will most definitely apply this tactics. There needs to be a training camp for this. Putting forth logical consistent argument is so much work. Bernie Sanders -> B.S. -> "I don't support B.S." I see what you did there. There are some videos online about street epistimology. I have been debating for a few years now, so it's a lot of trial and error. But also I recently 'found' Anthony Magnabosco and his videos about street epistimology. They have been helpful to give me new insight. He doesn't teach point by point as that's impossible and you have to bring your genuine self to each coversation and learn how to 'read' people. The way I speak to a religious person is not the same as I speak to a leftist but can help them both reach the same awareness about an issue. So this is what takes practice. Most of my time I speak with people I don't agree with...I search for them. lol I come to FDR to recharge my batteries every now and again and find different sources that might help me hone in. Recently I had an online debate with someone who continually verbally abused me. Normally I just call it out and leave the discussion but this time I kept calling it out and again and again until they stopped. I didn't get angry or insulting I just told them it's easier for me to follow their point if they can avoid verbally abusive language. or, I asked if they have ever convinced anyone after they verbally abused them and if not...then why he is continuing that approach? etc I asked if HE was ever convinced of a new viewpoint after being verbally abused and if so...did he trust that he really held the viewpoint or it was a mechanism to avoid further verbal abuse?.... so after a few of those..he got the point. . When they stopped and replied without verbal abuse I cheekily told him "wow....I almost didn't recognize you without you calling me a $$%^%$%#$$@... you snuck up on me. and that sort of broke the ice and we actually had a productive conversation. AFter a few days I reflected on that experience and realized thi sperson has probably never or rarely made it past his first 2 or 3 verbally abusive insults before people walk away and that way he won't be challeneged on his ideas so I hope it gave him the opportunity to exercise his arguments and refine them. I did mention that to him briefly that we don't have to agree at the end but simply put arguments forward so we can see them 'outloud'. That is a small phrase (and I have other variations) that sort of gives them the perspective that we are thinking together....not against each other. and it softens up the edges and defenses of people and lets them feel 'heard'.
ObserveandReport Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 Do you find these "tactics" better at communicating than regular discussion?
raz1911 Posted April 17, 2016 Posted April 17, 2016 Thanks for the post ill use some of these. I have joined a lot of left Facebook groups that I often post links to Stef's videos and argue with people about the things they post, so ill try some of these.
regevdl Posted April 24, 2016 Author Posted April 24, 2016 Do you find these "tactics" better at communicating than regular discussion? I often do have discussions with people This was more of a succinct illustration of how to effectively (not always of course. lol) to reply to some of the common issues that come up within the discussion. It's certainly not a driveby situation. Just sort of excerpts of what I have personally found repeated in many converstaion on Bernie or the issue of socialism as a whole and sort of refined my responses to them. Thanks for the post ill use some of these. I have joined a lot of left Facebook groups that I often post links to Stef's videos and argue with people about the things they post, so ill try some of these. Thanks. I used to post a lot of videos and links on FB and other media sites back in the last election regarding Ron Paul and personally (maybe it's provided more fruitful output for you) but personally...looking back....it didn't amount to beans. Especially on FB where most comments are common rhetoric platititudes I simply came up with or attempted to (with the help of Stefan's podcasts) very compact, short rebuttals to then engage people further online or offline in some cases where discussions can be more lengthy and open reducing the win-lose aspect of FB for example. I challenged myself to not post videos or news articles for 1 year and try to reach out to people and get them to become interested in what I am saying and actually it has worked FAR better when I post 'notes' that are quite lengthy or daily posts on particular issues that are more than a paragraph. It takes people time to get used to an dmotivated to read because the internet and MSM has conditioned them to tire out after 20 words. lol So don't be afraid to use your own words rather than posting his videos. I mean it's great o share his content but I look at it as...when I am in a discussion and someone 'replies' with a video or article I see it as a big turnoff. I imagine if we were standing in person with each other and I made an argument and their rebuttal was pulling a stranger off the street , shoving them in my face and saying 'listen to him!~'. It would be offputting, so I treat internet discussions teh same way. When people post videos or articles as a 'rebuttal' I simply ask them if there is anyway they can put the case in their OWN words as I chose to speak with THEM afterall. some walk away and some take me up on that request which become interesting conversatons. So even if it's content I am partial to, I always try to get the person to express it in their own words.
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