Greetings from Belgium

[bzalinski]

Hello everyone,

 

My name is Benoît. I'm a bilingual Flemish man, with a french name and Polish-Russian roots. Go figure, but this kind of blend happens quiet often in Belgium. At the present moment I live in the city of Brussels. 

 

I learned about Stephan Molyneux and this community in September, but it took me quiet some time to get involved on the website. The only right thing to do was to become a donator and become more invested into the community. It took me some time before I decided to start posting, because I was either struggling with the way I express myself in the English language, or because I was simply procrastinating too much. 

 

As for probably most people on this website, getting in touch with the philosophical content of Freedomainradio was a life changer for me. I don't think I will ever be the same after reading some of Stephan's books, especially when it comes to the eye-opening truths he speaks about relationships. 

 

I was in a relationship at the time where I started listening Stephan's podcasts. I noticed that as soon as I started to understand the content of the podcasts, it made me question so many things that seemed obvious before. My life, my family and my relationship. As I gained knowledge and insight, I felt that a part of my life was becoming more difficult. It became more difficult because I was being confronted with the truth about myself and this world. What used to be confusion started to become more clear. The confrontation could be, at times, very painful. Old wounds that never healed were now open again. 

 

Some of these confrontations led to a breakup with my (ex)girlfriend a few days ago. It hurts to not have her in my life anymore but I know that this has been caused by my lack of self-knowledge. As I missed her very much, I turned to some people in the community and so far I was glad to find very kind and helpful people in the chat room. 

 

Here I am now, sharing with you. 

 

I will start a long journey for self-knowledge and I hope that this community might bring me new insights. 

[aviet]

Welkom,

How are those in your circle taking the Brexit news and Belgium in general?

[bzalinski]

Welkom,

 

How are those in your circle taking the Brexit news and Belgium in general?

 

Hey, thanks for your reply.

 

Allot of friends in my circle are skeptic towards a brexit. Most of them are academically schooled economists. When I talk with them about brexit they listen carefully however. Some friends do share the same opinion as me, but with a grain of salt. That's probably because most of them tend to be center-right wing. That is of course to Belgian standards. What we call right-wing in Belgium could, to a certain degree, be considered democrat in the US.

 

In Belgium, you see the same as everywhere: Left-wing socialists are against the Brexit, because being pro-European has been part of their indoctrination. Most right-wing people tend to be pro-brexit. Social media are all against Brexit because all media in Belgium are left-wing / subsidized by the state. There are almost no alternatives when it comes to the press. There are a few notable online platforms that offer a critical voice.

 

There is also an interesting split in Belgium: as you may know, the country is a federation between 3 cultural ( language ) communities. The biggest one is the Flemish community ( people often mistake Belgium as a french-talking country ) who talks dutch, the Walloon community talking French and finally the small German community. A majority of Flemish citizens vote right-ring, while the majority of Walloon vote (extreme)left-wing. This means that on a federal level, we often struggle to find satisfying solutions for the whole country. It's generally at the expanse of one community. Belgium is basically a non-country where different cultures, with different political mindsets hold each other hostage for political and economical benefit. Even tough we call each other "federation" or "confederation", we have allot of central power that can block the efficient working of the different federal entities. Switzerland for example, is also a federation but they grant allot of freedom to every federal entity. Hence why it works better and cannot be compared to Belgium, despite being also called a federation. 

 

I tell you this because this split also reflects on different opinions, like the brexit. Allot of Flemish citizens applaud the brexit because of our dream of independence. Most people in Brussels and Wallonia might be pro-remain because of the anti-Flemish narrative. Almost all media are pro-remain because it's the narrative of people who want to keep Belgium alive. It's a logical stance when you know that most of their subsidies come from either the Belgian federation or the EU. 

I'd say the general consensus is that more people are pro-remain then pro-leave. However, I feel that there has been a recent shift in ideas. It's hard to back up my feelings without any tangible statistics. 

[Mister Mister]

hi and welcome

[aviet]

In Belgium, you see the same as everywhere: Left-wing socialists are against the Brexit, because being pro-European has been part of their indoctrination. Most right-wing people tend to be pro-brexit. Social media are all against Brexit because all media in Belgium are left-wing / subsidized by the state. There are almost no alternatives when it comes to the press. There are a few notable online platforms that offer a critical voice.

Interesting. I didn't know of the specifics of the divide in the country. It sounds quite similar to the UK, where the Conservative party is at least in its actions similar to the US Democratic party. Recently I took a questionnaire here: https://uk.isidewith.com/ , which will tell you how much you are on-board with the policies of political parties. I answered from a perspective of what I thought would be best now, rather than an idealistic POV. I got 84% for UKIP and 79% for the Conservatives. Yet I have very little in common with them, as they declare their policies and then don't follow through and there is virtually no platform they have on reducing government.

 

From what you say, one thing that is definitely better about the UK is the press, where most of the press (in terms of circulation) was for Brexit, and there are very strong anti-establishment aspects to the press.

 

There is some good news though:

 

 

 

Big government/socialist sentiment is really tanking in the UK:

 

 

I'm hoping to see the left-wing Labour party end in 2020. They have been decimated, loosing cira 30% in Wales and Scotland the last couple of years.

[bzalinski]

Thanks for this information Aviet.

 

I think that this comparison between left and right is very interesting, just because every country has a different understanding of it's meaning.

Nowadays, I try to avoid hose words as much as possible because they cause allot of confusion, which I will explain further down. But when people talk about "the regressive left", I generally understand what is being implied. Let's have a closer look at the differences tough:

 

In Belgium, you have the Flemish left and the Walloon left. The Walloon left ( PS ) leans closer to communism then the Flemish left. The Flemish left ( SPa ) has allot of similarities to the kind of socialism that Sanders advocates. From a Belgian perspective it is funny to see how Sanders is called a communist by some republican, because we know that it could be much worse. It shows how sensitive US republicans are to some socialist doctrines. It also shows how far left Belgium has become. 

 

From a Belgian point of view, European left-wing parties are being considered more central tough. They endorse some point of views that are considered "right-wing" in Belgium. An example would be syndicates. In Belgium, they are a political power that will often cause violent rallies against everything that represents employers. In Denmark, syndicates are a thousand times more peaceful and collaborate in a more healthy way with entrepreneurs. 

 

Belgian "right-wing" would be considered as leftists in the US. They are pro-healthcare, pro-welfare and don't have outspoken opinions on gun laws. They seem to endorse our very strict gun-ban. They are considered right-wing in Belgium because they criticize multiculturalism, support the free-market and support a certain form of nationalism. 

 

In Europe, it tends to be quiet simple: if you criticize migrants, if you are a nationalist or if you endorse the free-market you are considered as right-wing. The word "right-wing" itself has been dumbed down to the level of being an insult. That's why nowadays, people "come out of the closet" by saying out loud that they are right-wing conservatives. 

 

 

So when we talk about "the left" on this forum, I believe we're referring to people that are:

 

- Pro-state ( More layers of bureaucracy and more laws will solve our problems ) 

- Pro-multicultural society ( all cultures are the same, all cultures can blend ) 

- Anti-nationalists ( which seems to be the default option with pro-multiculturalism. ) 

- Leans towards "progressive" values and shuns conservative values ( abortion is great, feminism is great, ... ) 

 

The problem is that you find such people on all political sides, even on political sides that call themselves "right-wing".  You also find left-wingers that don't match the description here above. Hence the confusion sometimes. 

 

That's why, when referring to someone's political views, we should focus more on their specific beliefs. 

 

For example: I know more when someone says he is a statist then when he claims to be left or right wing. 

 

 

Any thoughts on this ? 

[aviet]

Thanks for this information Aviet.

 

I think that this comparison between left and right is very interesting, just because every country has a different understanding of it's meaning.

Nowadays, I try to avoid hose words as much as possible because they cause allot of confusion.

I also avoid these words as much as possible, as well as liberal and conservative. And it seems to be a growing trend. The political spectrum makes little sense to me. It seems like an archaic and muddled system from the same world as pre-decimal currencies, like when there were twelve pence in a shilling, and forty shillings in a £; or like the idea of spontaneous generation, which proposed maggots and fleas spontaneously came into existence.

 

In the case of liberal and conservative, there isn't really a clear definition of what they mean and I would argue little congruent in terms on principles. I find in many cases the same act could be seen as liberal or conservative, e.g.

 

The death penalty is a liberal use of government force, but aims to conserve law and order by removing criminals and sending a message.

Legalising drugs is liberal, because it lets people do what they want, but its also conservative to not get involved in other people's business.

 

Then things like imposing social customs, like wearing a burka, would generally be called ultra-conservative. Yet I would say it would better fit liberal, as a liberal use of government force.

 

And for principles, people who identify as left often say words to the affect of 'I want to protect the poorest and most vulnerable people in society' - a vague principle. They often screech horse about the rights of death row inmates, yet when it comes to the rights of the unborn, literally the most vulnerable people in society, they see their butchery (abortion) as a virtue.

 

I almost always avoid the use any labels to describe myself as I feel it would limit the scope of my thought and people would misinterpret them. It also makes you an easier target to be sniped down by adversities if you have various labels and thus harder to attack with personal insults etc. It makes it more pertinent that people challenge your views, evidence etc. rather than dismiss you as far-right etc.

 

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The picture you paint of Belgium is not particularly enticing. At least the Belgian right criticise the empirically provable disaster of multiculturalism.

 

From someone that has experience in Eastern Europe, it is again different there. Many of the left parties espouse views that would be considered far-right in Western Europe and the right considered ultra-far-right. When the Freedom Party of Austria were threatening in the Austrian presidential elections, even the newspapers in Britain that many consider to be far-right were saying they are a far-right party. Yet I read through their policies and even by Western European standards thought they would generally be considered standard right.

 

In the UK, I have come under attack, derision and incredulity for being a Donald Trump supporter. Here he is considered a new Hitler by many, most of who cannot muster a reason to back up this claim, but in Serbia Donald Trump is just considered a normal guy. I know one person there who is a vegan and obsessed with environmental issues. If they were from Western Europe, you'd expect them to be reeling at Trump's name, but they quite like him. And Serbia is a country that is still incredibly infused with socialist ideas. Again, proof that the political spectrum is junk. Something that has to be re-drawn for every country and still only be marginally relevant is not worth considering.

When I was in Greece last year I found there were several issues that were flipped upside-down. For example, Marxists were unhappy that the Marxist government had increased funding for state-run television. In Britain, this is something Marxists want more of - more government.

 

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I would agree with your general terms of what a leftist is considered to be and think that is what is generally meant, but as you point out some people may go the complete opposite way in one or more areas. As you may be aware many people in Britain who voted to leave the EU were old supporters of the left, Labour party. These people are generally proponents of the state, but against all your other points. They would be called center-left, even though they would generally be considered right on more issues than left.

 

I have taken calling the people you have identified as Marxists.

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> For example: I know more when someone says he is a statist then when he claims to be left or right wing. 

 

Good point.