Caring for parents in old age

[Ninja]

Hello FDR community!

 

I would like to know your thoughts about the ethics and emotional necessity of caring for ones parents in old age and through sickness.

 

I've always felt it was a persons duty to care for their parents. I've also felt that being with our parents through that terrifying experience gives us essential knowledge and perspective about life and death.

 

I know that the ethics around this topic are relative and so I'll share a bit about my current relationship to this common human experience in order to create more opportunity for the responses to this topic to help me understand the root of my interest in this subject.

 

My parents neglected and abused me to the extant that I have endured a great deal of trauma.

 

They are now having health issues from living a life of overconsumption of toxic substances.

 

They both deny their illness.

 

My Father has been telling me that some of his organs are injured for the past 2 years.

 

The first thing was hepatitis C, he contracted before I was born. He has a history of heroine abuse so he may have contracted while living in London in his early 20's.

 

He denies that possibility but does not deny using heroine.

 

Though he was aware of the virus before I was born he took medication to get rid of the virus at the age of 55 because he thought it was making him fatigued.

 

He decided to take a newer experimental drug so that he wouldn't have to pay as much for the prescription.

 

One of the drugs caused his haemoglobin to drop and he went to the doctor reporting pain in his left arm and his chest.

 

He was sent to hospital and after some weeks found that the results of the testing he had done showed that he has clogged arteries.

 

He also discovered that 30% of his liver is not functioning while being tested for eligibility to take the experimental drug.

 

He denies any of this has to do with a lifetime of chronic drinking and smoking.

 

He did quit smoking 10 years ago and drinks less now.

 

..

 

When he discovered he had clogged arteries he was in denial and attributed the results to his physical reaction to the severe drop in haemoglobin.

 

It was suggested that he go for surgery but refused.

 

I spoke to him yesterday and he has decided that he will in fact go for the surgery for a number of reasons including 'everyday when I go to the gym, after about 8 minutes on the treadmill I start to feel a pain in my left arm' and that the doctor has classified him as high risk.

 

...

 

He takes pride in the fact that he is still going to the gym.

 

..

 

He has asked me to go back to my hometown (the bad part of hell) to take care of him.

 

There is no where else I could be but there while he goes through this.

 

I have a relatively strong loyalty to my parents.

 

I tell myself to be grateful that I have the chance to see him again.

 

But this isn't going to be triggering emotions associated with mortality alone.

 

There is also the feeling that I've been neglected and traumatized by this person and now I must go and watch him suffer the consequences of indulging in the things that were more important to him than my well being(smoking, drinking, an unjustified and irrational moral authority, etc).

 

I must watch him suffer while feeling the panic and pain associated with watching a loved one suffer.

 

And there is also the pain of the cause being self inflicted

 

And the pain of the absolute terrorized destruction of my potential to have a peaceful life as a result of his masochism

 

And the fear of the only person in the world I think is closest to loving me unconditionally being gone-

 

The fear of being alone.

 

Then- there is the fear of interacting with him, putting up with the non reality, untruth, disassociation, and sometimes still, though I am almost 30, agression and possibly physical violence.

 

There is the fear that I will become so upset in this situation that I'll break.

 

I've just come into relative emotional and material stability after almost 3 years of chronic depression, possibly longer.

 

I'm living in a city far away and have made arrangements to take prerequisite courses in order to prepare for furthering my education should it happen I don't find a suitable father figure to have a family with.

 

I'll have to leave everything here (which isn't that great but is heaven compared to my hometown) in order to care for my father.

 

This should not make me feel this kind of discomfort.

 

I feel like I should be entirely grateful to be able to take care of him. There is a part of me that is spared injury because I feel more secure taking care of my dad than leaving him without anyone around who has an intrinsic value in his well being.

 

It would drive me insane if I couldn't be there for some reason.

 

But I'm more terrified of the kind of insanity that being in an abusive environment while enduring great loss could cause me to retreat into.

 

Since our discussion yesterday I've been in a completely disassociated state and I've been experiencing psychosomatic physical pain in a number of ways that are incredibly distracting.

 

I suppose my question is,

 

If family is the most important thing and that is why I must care for my father(aside from love)

 

And his lack of care for me has created a threat to my ability to further our family by having the emotional, psychological, and material stability required to have my own children

 

And caring for him may further that threat by breaking down the self worth I've been diligently building based on truth and reason

 

Then is it not the best thing for our family for me to protect myself from further injury?

 

I'm concerned that my feeling of obligation comes from a place of cowardice rather than Reason.

 

Some advice I've received is 'don't let the past get in the way' 'you'll regret it if you don't go' 'you owe it to him'

 

And I'm not sure why I'm having such a hard time accepting those claims.

 

I understand them but the reality is that the result of my going to my hometown and being close to my family is always conflict.

 

Conflicts where when I ask myself if I have or ever would treat my parents the way they treat me I am shocked at the disparity between the level of respect we have for each other.

 

I understand that therapy will help, I've been moving in that direction but at this point I'll be going to to take care of my father without a doubt in my mind so I'll likely wait until I arrive to find one.

 

I'm hoping that seeing a therapist will allow me to have the time I desire with my dad and help me to avoid any conflict.

 

I find it almost impossible to believe that taking care of a loved one could be the wrong thing to do.

 

Looking forward to your thoughts and I hope this thread is of some use to all of you!

[KeepOnGoing]

That's a tough one. Most people will not understand you because they project their own feelings on your situation. Every situation is different. For me for example it doesn't matter that he is your father, that you have a duty as a son or because one of the 10 commandments says you should honor your parents. I have another one : you reap what you sow. My story: my father was an alcoholic and he drunk himself to death, my mother - cold sadistic manipulative woman. She abused me physically and mentally, my father didn't care, to weak to protect me. I confronted my mother about the abuse, same old story - she was and is the victim. She just doesn't get it and she never will. I don't love her, I love and miss deeply a mother that only existed in my heart, someone that I've never met and I will never meet. It's out of my reach because this person doesn't really exist. It's very hard to come to the terms that this woman is not able to be a mother. Nothing I can do about it, the only thing I can do is to change my attitude to this. Sometimes I wonder what I will do if I will get a phone call that she is sick or dying. She neglected me when I was a child, when I was hopeless and when I needed her the most. Instead of proper care I got beatings and name calling. I'm not a saint. Enough of my suffering. The best thing I can do is to have my own family, to break the cycle of abuse and to raise my kids the right way. Many damaged people have so much love and affection to offer but they focus on giving it to the wrong people. There is no point of watering the rock and expecting for it to bloom.

[dayna j.]

I don't care about my parents now, and I certainly don't care about what happens to them in their old age. As KeepOnGoing has said above, you reap what you sow--and my parents have sowed nothing but misery, abuse and neglect.  If I get "the call" from a dying parent or family member, I will tell them that the end did not come soon enough for them and hang up the phone. 

[Anuojat]

Did you parents neglect or abuse you hen you were a child? You dont owe then anything.

 

How do your parents react to your genuine emotions? If you truely love you theyd be curious pre-emptively.

 

If they love you... they wouldnt make demands for you to be there. Requests rather and understanding if you cant be there.

 

It "sounds" to me that they did abuse you and dont really love you. So dont confuse primordial and deep FEAR with love.

 

Relevant:

 

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/374/deathbeds

[dayna j.]

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

 

"Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."

 

(...)

 

From a psychoanalytic lens, it can be argued that Stockholm syndrome arises strictly as a result of survival instincts. Strentz states, “the victim’s need to survive is stronger than his impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma."  These sentimental feelings are not strictly for show however. Since captors often fear that their affection will be perceived as fake, captives eventually begin to believe that their positive sentiments are genuine."

[Mister Mister]

  Yes if they consistently inflicted harm on you you don't owe them shit.  And if their illnesses are self-inflicted then.  They could have dealt with their demons instead of doing drugs and alcohol, been good parents, and been healthy or at least had children who wanted to be around them (which you obviously don't).  But they didn't.  By sacrificing your time and happiness to take care of them aren't you just subsidizing bad decisions?  Why should you have to keep paying for their shitty choices?  And I say that with all sympathy.

 

  Have you seen a therapist or talked to someone about this?  I think you could enormously benefit from talking to a professional about all the conflicting feelings you must be having over this issue.

[KeepOnGoing]

Have you seen a therapist or talked to someone about this? I think you could enormously benefit from talking to a professional about all the conflicting feelings you must be having over this issue.

I think it's good to ask about therapist's approach in this matter. Some of them push the "forgive and move on" agenda and that somehow you should still be in touch with your parents because you will benefit from it. That they (therapists) will teach you how to deal with your family's BS.

[RotYeti]

Something to consider is that you're subsidizing their abuse of you when you treat them well. I wonder how much abuse wouldn't have been committed if parents expected their kids to not take care of them afterwards.

[S1988]

Something to consider is that you're subsidizing their abuse of you when you treat them well. I wonder how much abuse wouldn't have been committed if parents expected their kids to not take care of them afterwards.

 

In other words, the "if you're kind to someone, then they'll be kind to you" idea only works with those who truly care about you. That doesn't work with those who exploit your kindness for their own iniquitous gains.

[dysfunc_survivor]

@Ninja After those years of depression, I don't think it's a good idea to go back to one of your primary abusers. I'd put my energy into starting a family, if that is what you want. Also I don't see any anger in your post, which troubles me. I think you should be angry at your father that treated you like this.

 

Regarding the fear of being left alone - You are already alone. He was never there for you, just like my father was never there for me. When I see people posting for example on facebook that they miss their parent passed away etc - consider this: Parents who passed away (i.e left you) of old age is one thing, but parents who actively chose to leave their children physically or emotionally, like ours did... Call me bitter, but I have very little left for anyone who does that.

[wyattstorch]

Ninja,

I started to write something else, which is below, but I think this has to come first:
you wrote

"...there is the fear of interacting with him, putting up with the non reality, untruth, disassociation, and sometimes still, though I am almost 30, agression and possibly physical violence."


To which it has to be said:

DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN DANGER. If there is a real and possible threat of violence towards you, as a result of YOUR assistance, you owe NO duty to help this man.

 

That said...

Sorry to hear you're going through that. I'm going through a similar situation, which is what brought me to this site. I've also reached that feeling of hitting a "breaking point." And although I know, intellectually, that one has no "duty" to help abusive parents, I still FEEL that I do, in some way.  Perhaps the most helpful information I've received, via one of Stephan's Molyneux's videos, which is also noted in an earlier comment by Dayna J, is about the variation of "Stockholm Syndrome" that occurs between abusive parent and child, where the child's survival needs override the anger towards the abuse. As Dayna put it:
 

"From a psychoanalytic lens, it can be argued that Stockholm syndrome arises strictly as a result of survival instincts. Strentz states, 'the victim’s need to survive is stronger than his impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma.'  These sentimental feelings are not strictly for show however. Since captors often fear that their affection will be perceived as fake, captives eventually begin to believe that their positive sentiments are genuine.'"


And here is the video of Stephan's that discusses it:

(Around the 9:30 mark, talking about the loyalty of children to abusive parents having an evolutionary explanation, discussing Regina Sullivan's research in abusive mother rats and the offspring's fear and avoidance centers in the brain being suppressed.)

I'd like to read more about that, myself, but it really makes sense to me. For the longest time, I couldn't reconcile my anger and need for self-preservation with my "instinct" to help out. It really felt like something was overriding my intellectual judgement.

In your case, it sounds like something for you to consider in regards to your insistence that you have a "duty" to care for your father. (That could be part of your personal philosophical belief, as well, though,so I don't want to assume.) But either way, something to consider. 

But please, consider this even more: normally, I'd say that, ultimately, it's your choice to help or not, depending on the severity of the situation. Cutting out one's family is a hard thing to do, even when one is convinced, intellectually, that it is the right thing to do. That's the whole point of understanding the "Stockholm Syndrome." But understanding doesn't always make it easier, either; emotions are hard to overcome. But one thing stands out in your original post, that requires a strong warning:


"...there is the fear of interacting with him, putting up with the non reality, untruth, disassociation, and sometimes still, though I am almost 30, agression and possibly physical violence."

One thing I had to learn in my own situation is that any help I give has to be done on MY terms, that I have not just the RIGHT, but the DUTY TO MYSELF, not to put myself in harm's way, or allow myself to be abused again, whether physically or emotionally. You will have to learn that, too. But if you're truly concerned about aggression and physical abuse as a real, physical possibility (and now just a triggered "flight or flight" response from the past), I'd STRONGLY advise you to keep your distance. No good can come of it. Either you get hurt, or you defend yourself and hurt him, which will probably bring up more (unearned) guilty feelings on your part.

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE DUTY TO PUT YOURSELF IN DANGER FOR THIS MAN.
 

I hope that helps some. I feel for you, take care of yourself.

[S1988]

Is there a way you can have someone else be responsible for his welfare? That way, you can ensure he's being cared for while at the same time protecting yourself. Perhaps there are other relatives or maybe you can send him to some kind of care facility?

[Jaeger]

Even if your dad was a model father and did everything right you would not owe him anything.  It is the responsibility of parents to provide unconditional love as well as the physical needs (food, clothing, shelter ect...) to their children until they are adults and can provide for themselves.  This is not a loan to be paid back at a latter time by the children, but a responsibility of the parents to provide.

 

I would talk this over with a therapist.  Mine has helped me tremendously  concerning my mom who is 81 and is ailing fast.  I now provide her help, not out of a sense of obligation, but because I love her and want to help her.  Even when I feel so inadequate when I help her.  My therapist is helping me with that as well.  Helping an aging parent is very emotionally draining and if you are still processing childhood trauma I can only imagine it would be worse.  A lot worse if the person you will care for is the one who inflicted the trauma.

[S1988]

 

 

I would talk this over with a therapist.  Mine has helped me tremendously  concerning my mom who is 81 and is ailing fast.  I now provide her help, not out of a sense of obligation, but because I love her and want to help her.  Even when I feel so inadequate when I help her.  My therapist is helping me with that as well.  Helping an aging parent is very emotionally draining and if you are still processing childhood trauma I can only imagine it would be worse.  A lot worse if the person you will care for is the one who inflicted the trauma.

 

How can you love someone who caused you pain? It'll be hard for me to do that unless the person who hurt me was sincerely repentant and made amends. Did she ever apologize to you?

[Jaeger]

How can you love someone who caused you pain? It'll be hard for me to do that unless the person who hurt me was sincerely repentant and made amends. Did she ever apologize to you?

My mom had to earn that love and she did make amends.  

 

I agree parents need to pay restitution for any pain they cause.  The more pain they cause the more restitution.  For example, my ACE score is only 1 so maybe the pain wasn't that much to amend for.  I would imagine the parent of someone with  a much higher ACE score say 6 or 7 might never be able to amend for the pain they created.  I'm sure it's possible but it would have to be some big time restitution.  

 

Bottom line is parents should love their children unconditionally and their children are not obliged to love them back.  Even if the child's ACE score is 0 they are not obligated to love their parent.  They most likely will but they aren't obligated.

[S1988]

My mom had to earn that love and she did make amends.  

 

I agree parents need to pay restitution for any pain they cause.  The more pain they cause the more restitution.  For example, my ACE score is only 1 so maybe the pain wasn't that much to amend for.  I would imagine the parent of someone with  a much higher ACE score say 6 or 7 might never be able to amend for the pain they created.  I'm sure it's possible but it would have to be some big time restitution.  

 

Bottom line is parents should love their children unconditionally and their children are not obliged to love them back.  Even if the child's ACE score is 0 they are not obligated to love their parent.  They most likely will but they aren't obligated.

 

That's great to hear. It seems like the older I get, the more I realize the painful truth that only a handful of abusers really change.

 

You made a very thought-provoking statement about obligation towards parents. I knew that one isn't obligated to them if they were severely abusive or even "mildly" abusive, but I didn't think that even those who came from extremely healthy households weren't obligated to parents. I don't know of anyone from a secure background who doesn't love their family, and I know it'll be difficult for me to not like someone who was truly caring towards me.