My Hello Post! Philosophy in a D&D Game?

[DavidFoxfire]

Thank you very much for welcoming me into this group.  I've been an avid watcher of Stefan for quite some time now, and I have a topic that might be strange to some, but some people here might be interested in me.

I'm designing a D&D campaign setting titled Æthercoil, which takes a post-apocalyptic twist in the classic Tabletop Role Playing Game.  The campaign setting is your classic D&D world (Elves, Goblins, Dungeon Delving, treasure and magic items, and all that) but it's set after the fall of the modern world--the very world we all live in.  In fact, the players would not only recognize some of the ruins of famous cities, and the character the players are playing as will put something that would be familiar into a new light.

I shared some ideas in a periodical available at DriveThruRPG:  http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/10063/FoxfireStudios .  I'm currently working on a playtest rules which will include a starter campaign.

As I worked on the design, there are two areas that would connect with others here, and maybe Stefan as well.  I'm sure that even him would have his concerns over what counts as political debate in the current year.  I took my own fears about the whole year and put it in this setting.  In Æthercoil, the Modern World fell because, as Stefan would say, people all over the world put down the words and picked up the sticks.  It would be the moment that we all dread happening: The Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st century.  Along the way of this fall, society went hard into Orwellian territories where all vestiges of history were burned as well as knowledge, vocabulary, and any other parts of civilization to the point that nobody has any memories about what happened in the Lost Age.  Three Centuries Prior.  All that the average person in the Æthercoil setting about the Lost Age is this:  "The fall began when the Cubs won the World Series."  Whatever the bleep that is.

I can talk more about this area later.

 

The second part is a unique application of philosophy, or at least to some people:  I wonder if it's possible to implement various philosophies, such as Universally Preferable Behavior, in a campaign.  While the characters in the campaign are going on adventures to find out more about their history, they're also rebuilding civilization.  With no historical touchstones or a concept of who they are as a people, society is forced to rebuild with what they have with them.  With all that they actually have is each other, how would they figure out how to build any civilization, let along a benevolent one?

I hope that I can have some interesting hashing out about the big picture parts of my campaign setting and maybe even have a group to help me playtest a campaign.  If it helps improve the campaign setting as it progresses to a printed book form, I'll consider being here time well spent.

I look forward to hearing from you all--as well as Stefan himself.  I can dream, can I?--and finding out what you think about it.

NOTICE:  There's is a post that got hidden because of something or another, thanks to me having a Neutral Reputation.  Please make sure that you unhide comments.  I assure you that no offensive content is intended.

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by DavidFoxfire
Had to give a Head's Up Notice

[barn]

Hi @DavidFoxfire

As of mechanics and storyline twist I would check the rulebook and materials relevant to Shadowrun.

When it comes to the "how civilisation went down the drainpipe", I'm quite against encouraging it as the backdrop.

[because.. ]

1. Visualisation is an incredibly powerful tool... personally, I wouldn't like to add to the already quite crazy ideas people are possessed by.

2. I'm a strong supporter of soft-landing, be it even in an imaginary world, regardless what fears might I have. (I know, I know... there's the second act as well... still.)

If you wish to speed up the process, perhaps you could post snippets of the framework, related artwork, guides for newcomers, sample ch. sheets and whatnot(is that a word?). (D&D isn't a spring chicken anymore)

Hope that helps,

Barnsley

[barn]

Peaceful Parenting :

+1d10 to

int-,

per-,

def-,

*(additional +2 ability if not single parent household)

[DavidFoxfire]

"Yeah yeah, Boo.  Minsc's boot is not an argument, but neither is the stench coming from that Stinking Evil!"

There's something I needed to add to "civilization going down the drainpipe":  While that's in the backstory, it remains in the backstory.  My campaign world focuses on the rebuilding part.  Where someone finds the proverbial aftermath of "the Lorax"--complete with the rock with 'Unless' chiseled on it, and becomes that someone who cares a whole lot and makes it better. It's about those who rise up after the two extremes take each other out and move on with their lives.

And while I'll take a look at Shadowrun,  the ruleset for Æthercoil is going to be D&D Fifth Edition.  It still has an easy learning curve, and it's the game system that almost everyone's playing with at this time.

Edited February 6, 2018 by DavidFoxfire
Corrected Typo

[barn]

Sure,

all the best!

p.s. Boo, the space hamster...

[Siegfried von Walheim]

I don't know a lot about D&D and my closest experience is with video games inspired by D&D, I still think I can give a few ideas. Let me know if they help.

1: Backgrounds. I don't think peaceful parenting should be a "plus" anything; rather no negatives. Instead I think bad childhoods ought to carry minuses (except maybe in some cases like being a nomad of some sort would most likely make one more observant and therefore a better survivalist however this is compensated with a subtraction to charisma (lacking the same people skills as the PP guy) and maybe intelligence (if he was roughed up a lot, he ought to lose some IQ. I think 1 point (out of 10) is enough). 

On the other hand I think really good childhoods ought to be a sort of "easy mode", unless they have flaws. Like if someone was practically bubble-wrapped then they ought to be mentally and physically weaker. Of course that's not really a good childhood but probably better than say a warzone or abusive tribe. 

2: World. I think depending on what you're going for, this can be pretty varied. If it's Fallout style then it depends on "how" the world ended; if it's by nukes then a few centuries in the future is enough. If it's by civilizational degeneration then I suggest a thousand years or so, as a way of giving enough "empty space" for players to imagine what happened and therefore come up with a reasonable explanation for say the return of Dark Age medievalism. The weakness of a few centuries is that chances are SOME people will remember "the good times" and SOME fragments/remains will be poignant enough to require accounting for. In short, the extremely distant future makes for a good clean slate. Anything can happen in 1-2,000 years. 

Whether it be immediately after the world's end, within a few centuries (rebuilding), or a few millennia (rebuilt but perhaps not for the better or a mixed bag), I suggest being creative in the creation of countries, nations, ethnicities (especially perceived ethnic groups), etc. since I'm sure if America implodes it would be totally different geo-politically 1000 years from now. Even if isolated from the rest of the world. I'd use 48 independent states as a baseline and create fictional ethnic groups based around the states. Perhaps name them after their old Indian names. Like the "Deleware Ethnic Group" could be a sub-division and culture of Whites while the "Lower Michiganers" could be a sub-division and culture of Blacks. And the more time you have the more diverse you can make them. Like hypothetically in a thousand years a hypothetical black ethnic group could be as smart or smarter than Whites or Orientals. Likewise the opposite. Of course genes are important to factor in but the more time you put between the present and the fiction, the more creative freedom you have. 

3: Themes. I don't think, if you're a red-pilled Libertarian, AnCap, Nationalist, Classical Liberal, or whatever, that this is too hard. Base it on real cause and effect. Fictional countries that are heavily promiscuous shouldn't be doing well unless it's a recent trend, in which case they ought to be on the decline. Keep the fiction real (so to speak) and I think it becomes more believable, educational, and most of all interesting.

Beyond all this I think it depends on your intent for these 3 above factors. If you've got a world in which medievalism has returned and America is essentially like Ancient China (a bunch of feuding states sharing a similar language but vastly differing cultures and beliefs with a central leader who is supposedly the supreme ruler) then I'd have different things to say if it's basically an echo of the present but in different costumes. 

[DavidFoxfire]

Thank you.  Any suggestions on what you'd want to see first?

[Donnadogsoth]

20 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

 

 

 

Hi David,

Fellow TRPG GM here, and my specialty was post-holocaust games.  Question:  are you basing your book on a campaign you ran, or is it being cut out of whole cloth?

[DavidFoxfire]

I'm cutting this campaign out of whole cloth.  I'll set almost all of the campaigns I run in this setting, even if it's something innocuous as a general store-bought campaign.

As for what Siegfried von Walheim said earlier, I have some itemized responses:

Item:  Backgrounds

I haven’t had any thought on a Player Character’s Upbringing, and as most people here who play RPGs can say, you don’t usually think of such when you roll up a character.  However, there is a point I’d like to address:

In the aftermath of the collapse, I have a connection between the Earth and a Feywild-like realm—I’ll let you google “Feywild” if you want to know more about it—where I have a party of elven people known as Eladrin show up to discover Humans reduced to a half million remaining and staring extinction in the face.  (Think of a combination of an Ancient Alien that you’d hear in the History Channel, Angel, and the Elves from Lord of the Rings, and you have the Eladrin.)  They took to the remaining humans and pulled them away from the proverbial endangered species list.

How they’d do it is open for discussion.  At the start, these Eladrin took a hands-on approach in raising the younger survivors of the collapse, but as those children grow up, the Eladrin let them strike out on their own, marry, and reproduce.  It could be expected that their adopted Elven parents would have some effect on these human’s own parenting.

Item 2.1:  The World’s fall.

At this point, I have this degeneration appear in a double century—Not just a rapid crash but a frighteningly rapid crash—to show my concerns over the kind of world government I fear coming, from what I’ve seen not just by Antifa’s tendency to destroy statues and historical sites, but also in the general degeneration in education.  We’re talking George Orwell on Steroids.  This group—known as “The True Order”—not only succeeded in memory holing human culture wholesale but declaring even thinking about someone’s heritage—let alone talking about it—a capital offense.  Think of Xerses threatening to do to Leonidas in the movie 300.  I have it so that it only took a generation or two for a general population to forget their entire history.  It might sound far-fetched at this point which is why I wanted to hash these ideas out here, but there are several Science Fiction writers out there who made cases of just that happening.

Item 2.2:  The world after the fall.

Right now, I’m focusing my campaign setting in the former Western Europe, known in-campaign as the Europa Coast.  I chose this region because it would be closer to more established D&D campaign settings, like the Forgotten Relams.  I have plans to expand the setting to China and North America in the future.

The Europa Coast consists of a series of city-states and small-scale kingdoms within a vast wild wilderness surrounded by still present ruins of the modern world.   Communities would be built on what little they’re told about the local environment.  A village in former Germany would resemble a Barvarian village, for example, or a village in what was former Spain would have their buildings connected end to end in Basque style.

I will develop this further on a case by case basis.

Item 3: Themes

On the record, I consider myself a Classical Liberal slash Free Thinker, if in position if not in name.  I tend to deal with topics on a case by case basis and I might fall either way depending on the topic of discussion.  I only call myself Red-Pilled Right because I’m ‘to the Right’ of a Millennial College Student in my views.  In this current year, that’s enough to get me labeled a “Deplorable Monster.”

The Eurpoa Coast would have a series of states with varying cultures and beliefs but with a Common Language along with local dialects. Some states might have a conflict, while others are trying to get along with each other, for trade, mutual protection, or other reasons.  Eventually, they might form some Inter-state factions such as “The Lord’s Alliance” or “The Order of the Gauntlet” to attempt to push the wilderness back.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

58 minutes ago, DavidFoxfire said:

I'm cutting this campaign out of whole cloth.  I'll set almost all of the campaigns I run in this setting, even if it's something innocuous as a general store-bought campaign.

As for what Siegfried von Walheim said earlier, I have some itemized responses:

The fun part. 

Quote

Item:  Backgrounds

I haven’t had any thought on a Player Character’s Upbringing, and as most people here who play RPGs can say, you don’t usually think of such when you roll up a character.  However, there is a point I’d like to address:

Perhaps you should if you want to make UPB a practically applicable thing. But I am apparently quite rare in that I usually project myself into my player-characters and try to act as natural to myself as possible. Also familial dynamics and the long-term dynasty-building are also huge areas of interest for me. I know these kinds of table-top games are open ended, but I'd think having a sort of "age system" and "inheritance system" would result in a vastly different kind of game in which long-term survival and reproduction become of central importance alongside whatever self-chosen or outwardly-imposed goal the P.C. (I'll use that to abriviate "player character" in this case) has.

Quote

In the aftermath of the collapse, I have a connection between the Earth and a Feywild-like realm—I’ll let you google “Feywild” if you want to know more about it—where I have a party of elven people known as Eladrin show up to discover Humans reduced to a half million remaining and staring extinction in the face.  (Think of a combination of an Ancient Alien that you’d hear in the History Channel, Angel, and the Elves from Lord of the Rings, and you have the Eladrin.)  They took to the remaining humans and pulled them away from the proverbial endangered species list.

 

How they’d do it is open for discussion.  At the start, these Eladrin took a hands-on approach in raising the younger survivors of the collapse, but as those children grow up, the Eladrin let them strike out on their own, marry, and reproduce.  It could be expected that their adopted Elven parents would have some effect on these human’s own parenting.

I'd presume either they were farmed like domestic animals or regulated. In either case there can be wildly different outcomes. Either due to being "bred" they become dependent like animals on their extra-special (the adjective to species I mean) masters or, assuming the outlanders are a truly superior species, into a form of what we'd consider "superhumans". 

In the latter case however I'd assume it'd work as well as English colonialism worked for the Third World. Only minor improvements in the long run, otherwise the cultures/genes remain largely the same as before.

Quote

Item 2.1:  The World’s fall.

At this point, I have this degeneration appear in a double century—Not just a rapid crash but a frighteningly rapid crash—to show my concerns over the kind of world government I fear coming, from what I’ve seen not just by Antifa’s tendency to destroy statues and historical sites, but also in the general degeneration in education.  We’re talking George Orwell on Steroids.  This group—known as “The True Order”—not only succeeded in memory holing human culture wholesale but declaring even thinking about someone’s heritage—let alone talking about it—a capital offense.  Think of Xerses threatening to do to Leonidas in the movie 300.  I have it so that it only took a generation or two for a general population to forget their entire history.  It might sound far-fetched at this point which is why I wanted to hash these ideas out here, but there are several Science Fiction writers out there who made cases of just that happening.

Given how many ways a world can fall, I'd argue you should leave it as vague and interpretive as possible. Personally I suspect the most likely worst case scenario is neither 1984 nor Brave New World but rather a repeat of the Fall of the Roman Empire and the return of the Dark Age. 

But then I suppose it doesn't matter if humanity was essentially nuked into smallness. Anyway can conceivably get it.

Quote

Item 2.2:  The world after the fall.

Right now, I’m focusing my campaign setting in the former Western Europe, known in-campaign as the Europa Coast.  I chose this region because it would be closer to more established D&D campaign settings, like the Forgotten Relams.  I have plans to expand the setting to China and North America in the future.

I'd focus around Denmark simply because it has the most geographical variance and lots fo water (and therefore micro-continents) but that's just my preference. 

I think this is a cool idea but I'd try not to rename too many things. Not only to avoid confusion but also because realistically most modern cities and countries have their names dating back to the Paleolithic age (whatever that means--science is not my forte) so I'd assume "France" and "Germany" would still exist even if in the sense of being "continents" rather than "countries".

America's not a bad idea to me simply because, if you want to have realistic diversity, almost every race in existence lives on some square inch of America. Whereas I'm sure Europe will eventually go full-Nazi even if they don't initially intend to. You can only poke the bear so many times before it goes berserk. Plus it conforms, in this fiction, to being a potential reason for the global reset. 

Quote

The Europa Coast consists of a series of city-states and small-scale kingdoms within a vast wild wilderness surrounded by still present ruins of the modern world.   Communities would be built on what little they’re told about the local environment.  A village in former Germany would resemble a Barvarian village, for example, or a village in what was former Spain would have their buildings connected end to end in Basque style.

I like this idea. I'll talk more about the institutions at the bottom.

Quote

 

I will develop this further on a case by case basis.

Item 3: Themes

On the record, I consider myself a Classical Liberal slash Free Thinker, if in position if not in name.  I tend to deal with topics on a case by case basis and I might fall either way depending on the topic of discussion.  I only call myself Red-Pilled Right because I’m ‘to the Right’ of a Millennial College Student in my views.  In this current year, that’s enough to get me labeled a “Deplorable Monster.”

Basically we're on the same page, though I'm sure given we're strangers we may differ on how to get things done politically and what's more likely to happen in XYZ scenarios.

Though since I consider the "Far Right" to be ultimately anarchist (in the Stefanist sense) and the "Far Left" to be ultimately authoritarian (in both the Communistic and the Fascistic sense), and since many historical Rightist movements were on the side of Capitalism, Classical Liberalism (minus republicanism), property rights (to the point of aristocracies), etc. I think it's safe to say we're Rightists. 

Quote

The Eurpoa Coast would have a series of states with varying cultures and beliefs but with a Common Language along with local dialects. Some states might have a conflict, while others are trying to get along with each other, for trade, mutual protection, or other reasons.  Eventually, they might form some Inter-state factions such as “The Lord’s Alliance” or “The Order of the Gauntlet” to attempt to push the wilderness back.

What's "the wilderness" exactly?

Also as a history lover, I'd want you to be scarce with your mentions of Kings and to provide some sort of legitimacy. After all we White folks never kept a ruler we didn't consider legitimate and in general legitimacy meant some combination of popularity, papal endorsement, endorsement by other legitimate rulers, and merit. 

For example let's say the alien-elves anointed an Emperor in (to keep it Western European) Amsterdam or Brussels to act as the world-ruler restrained by, I'd assume like in history, a local aristocracy, a clergy (whether Christianity or something else---though personally I'd want to see Christianity pop in somewhere given how central it is to European civilizations and just how ingrained it is in our fiber), and of course local unions (like thanes and guilds and various associations). 

By extension perhaps every "race" (think French, Dutch, German, English, etc.) is ruled by a "King" and every "sub-race" (think Walloon, Neustrasian, Prussian, Bavarian, etc.) is ruled by a "Prince" (or if you want to retain that for the "big ones" then "Duke" and you can effectively have the "Dukes"=Small, "Archdukes"=Medium, and Grand Dukes=Big), and every sub-region is ruled by an Earl or Marquis, and below them a Count and the bottom every landowner both knighted and not. 

Of course if you want more than effectively one spider-web system then you can implement a republic as well. Perhaps in England (as they've always been close in spirit to it) or the Netherlands (and move the Imperial Court to Aachen or Geneva). 

I'm also curious how you'd portray them. Like how realistic do you want to be and what do you think would be "realistic" given the conditions? Like if a superior species really radically reformed humanity then I'd imagine this hypothetical "empire" to be pretty much a utopia where badness of any kind is rare. This might take away from potential villains and conflicts though. Of course I'm assuming the Elves here are actually quite good at being parents and perhaps even genetically enhanced the humans, and in particular these Europeans. In which case what we think when we say "government" wouldn't apply here. If anything the "governments" here would be no different from organized charities and the real "power" would be devolved amongst landowners (hence an aristocracy to represent and protect them). 

As something of a monarchist (or whatever word might apply to a wanter of a land-based aristocracy) I am deeply interested in this side of the discussion. 

EDIT: I shrank your text boxes to make these responses appear shorter. I'd appreciate if you did the same in responding to me since I expect the page to get pretty cluttered otherwise. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[DavidFoxfire]

My apologies if this breaks the protocol against bumping your own thread.  It's just that I have an additional point to hash around here.   (Ditto with any changes in text styles; I'm doing some mad clip and pasting here.)

Point:  Humans raised by Elves

As I hinted above in the previous post, I have High Elves and Eladrin raise a section of the remnant of the surviving humans as foster parents, in their effort to pull Humans from the endangered species list. 

What would a human raised by elves be like? I'm sure that they'll be some Fey cultural influences in the Humans, especially in some aesthetics (such as clothing, some skills, and the possibility of Human Bladesingers which I do allow.) But I'm open to any other details.

I've already thought of two. One: While the Elves would treat their human charges well, the jury is still out over whatever a Elf Parent-Human Child pairing would be like Parent and Child or Owner and Pet? The second part would be possible due to how short Humans are, of course. Also, even with the second option, it won't be like the human would be getting a raw deal. Humans sometimes treat their pets like their beloved children; I'm sure Elves can be the same way.

A Second thought came from a quick Google Search for this very thing. I found this paragraph from another discussion (Link: https://www.lythia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12214 )

 

To the elves especially the lives of humans are indeed "Nasty, brutish and short". Disease, old-age and death, cruel punishments, flogging, hanging, amputations. Humans driven by an aggressive nature to be combative and mean - even as children. When human children are raised among elves their aggressive natures are often channeled into more productive and less destructive endeavors and may even outstrip the more passive elven children in many skills despite the natural gifts the elves have making them in most ways superior to humans - becoming well educated, nature sensitive persons with highly developed woodland and nature skills.

 

I mentioned this question over at Reddit (Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/7wne5z/humans_raised_by_elves/ )and got some feedback about how humans raised by elves would consider their own upbringing, and they run the gamut from positive to outright antagonistic. 

 

While the reality of the human's response to their benefactors will indeed be ranged, I think that the Eladrin would do the best they can to ensure that their human charges have some variant of a stable child-bringing.  They would, of course, have a softer technique in parenting.  They'd, of course, wouldn't even think of using the paddle.  (They'd only have to read the Bible through once to figure out that the Rod is a Shepherd's Crook, not a Singapore Cane)  However, they'll have their own questionable practices, such as the use of Enchantment spells (such as Calm Emotions as an example.) to guide their children into more proper thinking.  Sometimes this shortcut is necessary.  ("Yeah yeah, I know that putting thoughts in that kid's not an argument, but how else am I going to get him to speak and read fluent Elvish within a week?  I have to get them to speak our language if we're going to teach them, right?") 

 

In my stance, I'm thinking that the Eladrin would do the best to raise their charges and even share parts of their fey culture to their foster children.  This will have an effect in the adventuring outfits the adventurers would wear, even to the point of having team uniforms that resemble some Anime shows.  They'd also have some traits listed in the quoted paragraph, where their aggressive natures are channeled into more productive endeavors and be more sensitive toward the world around them.  (And of course, the most common lesson that an Elf can teach a Human: "I know your life is painfully short compared to mine, my friend, but there's something to be said of slowing down from your breakneck pace and taking in life every now and then.  Stop and smell the roses, as the saying goes, it's good for you.")

 

Of course, I'm just brain farting here, tossing ideas up here to see what sticks and what bounces away.  If you have anything to add, I'm happy to hear it.  Your input might help my good idea improve on its way to a published book.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

13 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

My apologies if this breaks the protocol against bumping your own thread.  It's just that I have an additional point to hash around here.   (Ditto with any changes in text styles; I'm doing some mad clip and pasting here.)

Point:  Humans raised by Elves

As I hinted above in the previous post, I have High Elves and Eladrin raise a section of the remnant of the surviving humans as foster parents, in their effort to pull Humans from the endangered species list. 

What would a human raised by elves be like? I'm sure that they'll be some Fey cultural influences in the Humans, especially in some aesthetics (such as clothing, some skills, and the possibility of Human Bladesingers which I do allow.) But I'm open to any other details.

I've already thought of two. One: While the Elves would treat their human charges well, the jury is still out over whatever a Elf Parent-Human Child pairing would be like Parent and Child or Owner and Pet? The second part would be possible due to how short Humans are, of course. Also, even with the second option, it won't be like the human would be getting a raw deal. Humans sometimes treat their pets like their beloved children; I'm sure Elves can be the same way.

A Second thought came from a quick Google Search for this very thing. I found this paragraph from another discussion (Link: https://www.lythia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12214 )

 

To the elves especially the lives of humans are indeed "Nasty, brutish and short". Disease, old-age and death, cruel punishments, flogging, hanging, amputations. Humans driven by an aggressive nature to be combative and mean - even as children. When human children are raised among elves their aggressive natures are often channeled into more productive and less destructive endeavors and may even outstrip the more passive elven children in many skills despite the natural gifts the elves have making them in most ways superior to humans - becoming well educated, nature sensitive persons with highly developed woodland and nature skills.

 

I mentioned this question over at Reddit (Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/7wne5z/humans_raised_by_elves/ )and got some feedback about how humans raised by elves would consider their own upbringing, and they run the gamut from positive to outright antagonistic. 

 

While the reality of the human's response to their benefactors will indeed be ranged, I think that the Eladrin would do the best they can to ensure that their human charges have some variant of a stable child-bringing.  They would, of course, have a softer technique in parenting.  They'd, of course, wouldn't even think of using the paddle.  (They'd only have to read the Bible through once to figure out that the Rod is a Shepherd's Crook, not a Singapore Cane)  However, they'll have their own questionable practices, such as the use of Enchantment spells (such as Calm Emotions as an example.) to guide their children into more proper thinking.  Sometimes this shortcut is necessary.  ("Yeah yeah, I know that putting thoughts in that kid's not an argument, but how else am I going to get him to speak and read fluent Elvish within a week?  I have to get them to speak our language if we're going to teach them, right?") 

 

In my stance, I'm thinking that the Eladrin would do the best to raise their charges and even share parts of their fey culture to their foster children.  This will have an effect in the adventuring outfits the adventurers would wear, even to the point of having team uniforms that resemble some Anime shows.  They'd also have some traits listed in the quoted paragraph, where their aggressive natures are channeled into more productive endeavors and be more sensitive toward the world around them.  (And of course, the most common lesson that an Elf can teach a Human: "I know your life is painfully short compared to mine, my friend, but there's something to be said of slowing down from your breakneck pace and taking in life every now and then.  Stop and smell the roses, as the saying goes, it's good for you.")

 

Of course, I'm just brain farting here, tossing ideas up here to see what sticks and what bounces away.  If you have anything to add, I'm happy to hear it.  Your input might help my good idea improve on its way to a published book.

Adding on to my above response....

I think the Elves are fundamentally a superior species but nonetheless a different species. Elf x Human is really like Human x Monkey. It ought to be seen that way as well, although from the human side it might be "preferred" since elves are truly a super-evolved humanity. One fiction I came up with is that humans are result of Elf x Dwarf pairings and their eventual miscegenation led to the rise of humanity (which is fundamentally a marriage of the best and worst qualities of Elves and Dwarves). But this fiction isn't well-developed and meant only to serve as a myth for another fiction (i.e. an "origin myth").

You're assuming Elves in this world would be like liberal humans minus socialism. You have to think of them as "better humans" and that means essentially having everything we currently lack (and perhaps a perspective that naturally makes them disdainful of us). I would assume like "better humans" they have the average IQ of around 120, stand at least a foot taller, are generally attractive, are generally athletic, and at the same time are generally more manly and womanly than we are as well as more K-selected. And from here there's fun part of creating weaknesses (or perceived weaknesses) that result from this.

For example elven commoners might generally see humans as barbarians to be educated but not "let in the house" similar to the English perception of Indians and Africans. I should think elves if they are so interested in the Earth would want to colonize it. I think America or some other place that's not being inhabited by the main humans of the main setting would be sensible since they would probably be in the market for a piece of land that's the biggest bang for its buck and also have the least hostile locals (or at least locals they can easily throw out). Of course if we're going down this route there has to be ethnic and special conflicts that result from it. I mean chances are most humans aren't keen on being ruled by extraterrestrial overlords who see them as little more than dogs or monkeys. 

And on the other hand I'm sure there would be elves who, in a somewhat patronizing way, see humans as a "protected class" that "needs guidance" similar to Leftist Whites and Jews with Black people. Of course that's if you want to go down the route of elves being colonizers of the Earth, which I think inherently results in conflicts just because we have a superior species coming into an inferior species' land and ordering them on how to live and behave. While I'm sure, like those conquered by Ancient Rome, many will happily accept the enlightened foreigners' rule many others will want for independence. And among the latter there will be people who range from out-right xenophobes who want to exterminate the "invaders" (and may have just cause depending on how you write the history. If the Elves were generally kind then this xenophobia is blown out of proportion but if the relationship was less kind...) to those who simply, like the Meiji Japanese, want to get along with the Elves and learn from them without being dominated and/or owned by them.

Also note the humans: I don't think it makes sense to have many modern-like humans simply because chances are they'd have been killed, resulting in only the most redpilled and perhaps cold of humans surviving. While Elven patronage would certainly elevate them like the Christians to the pagans or the Romans to the European barbarians, they would still remain as they are. If I were writing this I'd envision the gender/racial/cultural time period to be more akin to the 16th century than the present time. Which means race and gender aren't really "an issue" compared to religion and cultural values while ethnic relations are somewhat foggy as they may be "gerrymandered" and the people living on the black lines might be on the fence as to whether they belong to this group or that group. Also I'd imagine given the general homogeneity of such a world modern issues of continent-based race would be largely inconceivable as culture would be of far greater concern. Like the Bavarians of this fiction might really not like the patronizing matter of the Republican English and the Republican English might see the monarchical continentals as "enslaved" similar to how the "Free Greeks" saw the Ancient Persians. The semi-anarchist Greeks saw the monarchist Persians as a "race of slaves" to be freed and liberated. I would imagine similar thoughts would permeate the minds of the various Europeans and perhaps be a cause for conflict (as the path to Hell is paved with good intentions...).

 

[RichardY]

@DavidFoxfire

Hi David, I have a few meta-ideas not sure how useful they are, mostly cosmetic. I think some of the stats could be renamed. Perhaps even the influence they have on the game/pastime.

Strength = Integrity.
Dexterity = Rhetoric.
Intelligence = Could go with IQ.
Wisdom = Something to do with alignment with Ideal or Actual self.
Charisma = Conviction.

Classes

Warrior = Philosopher King. (Integrity)
Rogue = Opportunist?  (Rhetoric)
Mage = Sage? (Wisdom)

"Races" 

Dwarf = Uhmm Jewish people, North Korean Nationals, "The Chosen People", Left wing Libertarians. 
Elf = Aristocratic, but perhaps could be like off the movie "The Time Machine."
Halfling = Country Bumpkins.
Human.

Various "Personality" effects in game. Dwarves(in General) High in Agreeableness (High in group preference), bonus points to conviction. Low in Conscientiousness (But higher in IQ). Increase in Rhetoric & IQ(improvement in general stats.)

Use of some form of "Intranet" in Game, through nodes.

Goal or Storyline

Dependent on how the stats of the characters are developed and how they influence various factions. "Freewill".

Combat

WW4 to be fought with sticks and stones eh? Couldn't it be done through some form of persuasion mechanic and exploration mechanic. One player taking the role of the "monster"(determined by highest in Rhetoric) and the other the challenger/Adventurer. Perhaps kind of like a flashcard game with quotes from various philosophers/thinkers. Perhaps the most difficult to play around with without altering the base of the game.

 

Lorax? sounds like some medical drug. Cross between Lore and Axe, something unholy that which cleaves, "unless you do this.. or else!"? Dichtonmy between Dualism and Monism.

 

[DavidFoxfire]

Before I go on, I’d like to say that I appreciate the open-mindedness in this conversation.  We might differ on some items, but we can still be friends. I admire that.  Besides, your point of view might fill in a spot missing in my campaign setting.

As for managing messages and shrinking other people’s quote boxes; this is why I use subheadings to separate different topics.  This is quite useful in some posts where I go through several topics in one sitting.  Oh, and if I’m missing something, that just means that my brain cells haven’t figured out a proper response yet.  Give me time.

Definition:  Wilderness

Wilderness meaning the wild untamed lands of every stripe and style chock-a-block filled with monsters, brigands, hermit wizards, caverns, monster humanoid civilizations like Orcs and Goblins, the occasional Giant or Kaiju, and the requisite ruin of a fallen Lost Age.

Item:  UPB being a practically applicable thing…

I’ll take this into another thread in this forum, mainly because it’s important enough for me.  I have a brainstorming magazine where I put all of my ideas into an easy to share format.  One of the articles in the next issue of this magazine will have a quick description on UPB and how it’ll apply in an RPG setting. 

(Please let me know if you're seeing this.  I just got a zero reputation score just as I was about to start a thread that's more in line with this forum--the one I just mentioned--and I hate to spend all this time just to find out I'm shadowbanned because someone thought I was too much of an oddball.  Won't be the first time.)

Item:  Age and Inheritance System

I don’t have an Age System yet, but I do have a Guild mechanic, where the party sets up a headquarters where money and items are stored for later, be it a later campaign or even new characters created later.  I’d also allow Player Characters to have new Player Characters as an heir.

Item:  The Eladrin’s portrayal

I see the Eladrin as a sort of angelic elf.  Usually light to near translucent skin with black hair, taller than a human and slender, with a grace and poise that would have them appear to defy gravity.  They’re well-rooted in the Good end of the Alignment Array (some Lawful Good for their sense of order, some Chaotic Good for their desire for freedom).  Their way would be a perfect application of the line “If everyone were Angels, no Government would be necessary” and would no doubt have their own form of UPB.

When the humans start setting up their own civilization, the Eladrin would realize the same thing I have when I think about the extent of Government Power:  While the government that governs least governs less, there is a point where a Government is necessary to keep the social contract between other people going.  To make sure that the people are kept free and peaceful and that there’s nobody around driving the kingdom to the ground, either by force, by business, or by crime.  So, the Eladrin would find a way to set up local governments by giving various leaders their blessing to so do.  Could be a ruling land-owner like you said, or they would set up an election and let the villagers decide who would rule them the best.  Maybe they’d even find a group lead by someone whom they pick out and declare, “May this one be your King, and may these folks be Your People.”  It’s still in the iffy stage, but it’s a start.

Sidebar

I realized the need for some form of Government when I heard about the difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.  The Constitution expanded the limits given by the Articles of Confederation, but still clearly defined those limits.  This was done out of necessity.  That epiphany made me a staunch Constitutionalist when it comes to government topics, instead of any form of Anarchist.  We don’t need a centralized government, but we do need a ref.  The Eladrin in Æthercoil would find out the same, and would set up some to be that ref.

Item:  How Eladrin treats their Human charges.

It will be apparent that Eladrin would be as evolved above Humans as Humans themselves are evolved above primates.  Because of this, the Eladrin would at least have a subconscious tendency to treat their time tending to humans like a human would with an animal, especially an animal who’s species they’re trying to save.  While some might voice this, most of them would keep in mind that these humans have their own minds and intelligence and have seen what they can do when given the chance.  The Eladrin knows that humans have set foot on the moon, build machines that can act on their own as well, and have even created the chocolate custard filled doughnut.  Humans made the Bismark and the Ham and Egg Muffin; would something like that ever come from a savage?

Nevertheless, the reality still exists much what Sigfried said; that Elves are higher up on the civilization scale than Humans, and that puts the Eladrin in the same position that Europeans are when they’re in the New World or Africa with the Natives.  There are two main differences in this scenario:  The Eladrin might want to live in the realm, they don’t have a coloristic frame of mind: They don’t want conquest, just a place to live with the world.  They also, through their own human history, have knowledge of what happened with Native population when someone from another country showed up and can learn from the fails of Human History.   While there would be some Eladrin that would consider their humans as either pets or experimental critters, the consensus would be One) make sure that humans remain above the dangers of inbreeding (As what my feedback gives me, a half million might be a scary drop from eight billion, it’s still above that danger.) Two) make sure that the humans are able to survive and thrive in the world, and then Three) let them go throughout the surrounding regions to return to their place in the world, hoping that they’d form their own cities, families, farms, and what not.

While the Eladrin will come off as high and mighty and patronizing, most of them will try to get a message across that they’re doing what they can to help.  Some would even tell them what they would feel if they themselves sees an animal that needs help.  Because of this, the human’s reception of the Eladrin would run the gamut, depending on how he was treated.  Some would be resentful of course, depending on how much he had Calm Emotions, Charm Person, or Suggestion cast on him.  (I see the Eladrin use Enchantment Spells in lieu of the paddle.  “Human parents used to spank their children with wooden paddles?!?!?!  What kind of savages are they?!” Also to be spoken is the need to ensure their genetic survival by making sure they breed. I know there’s a couple Eladrin would be interested in Human Breeding.)  Others would be wary of whatever or not these High Elves would decide to take over the planet and enslave every flauna, flora, and sentient being on it. (Some would even keep an eye on them in private to see if that’s their plan.) Right now, I see the common conception of Eladrin as an otherworldly race of beings who arrived in their time of need, brought them back from the brink, and then after making sure that they’ll leave, they just set them free.  Granted, they weren’t the most congenial of folks, but they made it clear that they did the best they could.  Heck, some of them would even be grateful enough to want to stay with the Eladrin.  I want the relations between the two to have a full range from adversarial to affable.

Because of this, the human culture will have a lot of fey influence, just as pagan culture and native American culture blended into Christian culture, the Eladrin’s time with them will affect their own culture—especially filling in places where their culture was erased in their fall.  I might not know of every aspect of this influence—I’m still open for suggestions—but I would say that their clothing would be flowing and colorful—something that would be used to tell adventurers apart from townspeople—a taste of cuisine that includes plenty of cakes and wines (although Chocolate would be a human-only delicacy:  I see the Coca plant to affect any Elf like High Proof Alcohol) and a love for learning and affinity for magic.  (I do see Elves ensure that every one of their charges knows out to read; in this setting I’m making, the literacy rate among humans would be up to 99%)

The Eladrin would pick up something as well, especially with introducing some local color in their outfits and finding out what dishes they could make with local game animals.  Tastes of pastimes would need some appropriateness into account: “What the hell is this football about?  Kicking around a ball and crashing into each other?  Sheesh!  The things you do for fun!!  Give me golf any day, it’s a lot more civilized.”

Item:  The World’s Fall

There have been some articles, one made by Stefan himself, that describes the fall of the Roman Empire and listed how the Modern Age is staring down a similar fall.  I see the fall go from what we have now, to Brave New World, and from there the Fall of the Roman Empire.  The rulers of such dystopias will quickly realize how much on sand they built their world on when a dragon shows up.

Item: Post-Fall Geography

I’ll be keeping most of the original names of cities and countries, although I use some derivatives to further denote some geographical regions.  Parts of France and Belgium become Flanders, a part of Germany is renamed Bavaria, Spain is considered a continent, and so on.

Item:  16^th Century dynamics

As Siegfried said, human civilization would be differed more among local cultures and maybe even class than between races and gender.  At this point in the timeline, there would be some city states run by local Lords, but actual kingdoms would be few and far between, and no existing Nation-States around.  The Eladrin might have set up a place for different parties to settle any disputes, but they do not have power over these states (nor do they want to.  They know better.)  Over time, I see this Court (located in Paris) would branch off into smaller such courts throughout the world.

Item:  RichardY’s input

While I’ll be retaining D&D 5E’s standard abilities, I can actually see where some of your mentioned renames might come into play.  In 5E, there is a possibility to add Honor or Sanity into the Ability Scores.  Since Æthercoil will add some focus to interacting with others, and there’s no doubt going to be some politics involved, maybe there is a need for sub-abilities that are formulated by the original six abilities.

Before I go on, I have a convention to explain:  I refer to the score of the ability by its full name (Strength) and the modifier by its Abbreviation (STR).  This would come into play in the following list, where I combine two Ability Modifiers to create a third:

• ·         Integrity: WIS + STR
• ·         Rhetoric: INT + DEX
• ·         Conviction: CHA + WIS
• ·         Grit: CHA + CON
• ·         Cunning: DEX + WIS

It’s an incomplete list: I’m thinking of pairing one of the first three abilities {STR, DEX, CON} with one of the second {INT, WIS, CHA}.  This will make for nine sub-abilities used in scenes where combat isn’t involved and is definitely the genesis of a new mechanic which I’ll develop for Æthercoil.

I’ve already got descriptions of the Races down, which I’ll show when I finally get out a preview of the Player Rules.  I’m about 60% done with that.

Philosopher Kings, Sages, and other ruler-like classes would probably be used in upcoming paragon level gameplay, which will come later.

A form of Internet in the form of a visual telegraph will be part of the Playtest Campaign I’m calling “The Lost Archive of Calais.”  The treasure in the Archive is a form of telegraph, both visual and later wire-based.  In the latter stages, the Visual Telegraph begins to be implemented.

Medicinal Dung?  Dude, have you not heard about Dr. Seuss?  What have your parents been teaching you?  Call CFS, you’ve been deprived!

[RichardY]

@DavidFoxfire

Character Abilities

• ·         Integrity: WIS + STR
• ·         Rhetoric: INT + DEX
• ·         Conviction: CHA + WIS
• ·         Grit: CHA + CON
• ·         Cunning: DEX + WIS

Out of the five character traits, I'd say the first four are more internal to the character's being, where as the fifth cunning is more an external trait. 

I'd be careful about adding additional combos, unless someone/or yourself comes up with something that should obviously be in there. Thinking of them as percepts, there are only so many things a person can hold in their mind (end up with something like Hinduism or Elder Scrolls Oblivion Gods) .  Besides if they're are to have some influence on the world, maybe fleshout their influence into other things.

Alignment

Could the alignment system be modified a bit or fleshed out?

From what I've seen doesn't the alignment go from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Good(Max Good/Reputation)? Instead of externalising the Evil to the world look at internalising it to the character somehow and instead use some form of faction rep system? 

I think the idea that you can somehow be lawful good from the get go a bit far feteched. Perhaps if you keep with the standard system what does it mean to be one of a different alignement? aside from material benefit. Could the alignment system be orientated towards something else? Order&Chaos, Level of Consciousness, etc.

The Sacred & Profane, The Lorax and UPB

Not really familiar much with American children's stories authors. Looking briefly at the Dr Seuss story on wikipedia it included deforestation and whether to do anything about it. I think stating on a monument UNLESS is hypocrytical and tries to refute the very thing it is doing. Makes the furry thing seem more like a Gremlin.

In my personal opinion I don't think the game should be overt with following UPB. Instead I think it should try and explore things along the sacred and profane, a bit like the video game "The Witcher". Perhaps explore a theme of narrowing the gap between a being's subjective and objective self.

Star Trek TNG "Encounter at Farpoint" also came to mind for some reason, I think many themes were briefly considered that you are looking to incorporate into the game. You have the drugged soldiers (represented by Q), also that being on Far point station, plus the head of the outpost looks a bit like an elf.....

 

 

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

On 2/17/2018 at 12:36 AM, DavidFoxfire said:

Definition:  Wilderness

Wilderness meaning the wild untamed lands of every stripe and style chock-a-block filled with monsters, brigands, hermit wizards, caverns, monster humanoid civilizations like Orcs and Goblins, the occasional Giant or Kaiju, and the requisite ruin of a fallen Lost Age.

"Kaiju"? As in like Godzilla? That sounds pretty cool! I love those quirky old Japanese monster movies!

Quote

Item:  UPB being a practically applicable thing…

I’ll take this into another thread in this forum, mainly because it’s important enough for me.  I have a brainstorming magazine where I put all of my ideas into an easy to share format.  One of the articles in the next issue of this magazine will have a quick description on UPB and how it’ll apply in an RPG setting. 

(Please let me know if you're seeing this.  I just got a zero reputation score just as I was about to start a thread that's more in line with this forum--the one I just mentioned--and I hate to spend all this time just to find out I'm shadowbanned because someone thought I was too much of an oddball.  Won't be the first time.)

Posts DO get occasionally modded out of existence. I don't think it's deliberate because in my experience it's somewhat random. Like maybe certain key words, phrases, profanity, or whatever trigger a system (especially if there's a lot of it) which automatically deletes it.

In your case: don't worry about it. But they're quite long so typing it up on Word and then copying it to here might be a good failsafe. I haven't done that myself and every time something gets modded out of existence I wish I did because often it really is just a matter of hitting an invisible ticker.

Quote

Item:  Age and Inheritance System

I don’t have an Age System yet, but I do have a Guild mechanic, where the party sets up a headquarters where money and items are stored for later, be it a later campaign or even new characters created later.  I’d also allow Player Characters to have new Player Characters as an heir.

Is there a time system? I think practically speaking whether there's aging or sense of time passing will probably just be up to the players. After all D&D is so open world even its rules can be tweaked if all players agree to it. The modding community around D&D is infinite!

Of course I have no experience playing D&D just a lot of video games and writing novels (all but one of which as a child). 

Quote

Item:  The Eladrin’s portrayal

I see the Eladrin as a sort of angelic elf.  Usually light to near translucent skin with black hair, taller than a human and slender, with a grace and poise that would have them appear to defy gravity.  They’re well-rooted in the Good end of the Alignment Array (some Lawful Good for their sense of order, some Chaotic Good for their desire for freedom).  Their way would be a perfect application of the line “If everyone were Angels, no Government would be necessary” and would no doubt have their own form of UPB.

My biggest beef is their actions contradict their alignment. Maybe. This is debatable. Namely they're literally caging people and brainwashing them. Now sure it's to make them moral but the act of making people moral invalidates any moral actions they might do. There's a reason why in Christianity God allows evil to exist; because if he actively purged it Free Will would be a joke. 

Quote

When the humans start setting up their own civilization, the Eladrin would realize the same thing I have when I think about the extent of Government Power:  While the government that governs least governs less, there is a point where a Government is necessary to keep the social contract between other people going.  To make sure that the people are kept free and peaceful and that there’s nobody around driving the kingdom to the ground, either by force, by business, or by crime.  So, the Eladrin would find a way to set up local governments by giving various leaders their blessing to so do.  Could be a ruling land-owner like you said, or they would set up an election and let the villagers decide who would rule them the best.  Maybe they’d even find a group lead by someone whom they pick out and declare, “May this one be your King, and may these folks be Your People.”  It’s still in the iffy stage, but it’s a start.

Unless they were literally brainwashed I'm very suspicious by the compliance of the general human populous. Man is naturally resistant to dictates--unless they come from credible or perceived moral and authoritative sources. 

While the elves could be like the Romans who fixed up everyone's civilization they conquered, it wasn't like the Romans were, especially by the end, treated as the recognized master race of whom to defer to. Now you could argue the Eladrin are basically a massive superpower and everything exists merely because they allow it to exist but I think that creates a whole lot of questions that will want answering. You don't necessarily have to--the players can answer them themselves in their sessions. However at the same time it invalidates the idea that the humans can be moral; how can a man be moral if he isn't allowed to be immoral and suffer the consequences? When immorality has been effectively eliminated from the gene pool there is no longer the ability to be moral (because there is no choice). 

Quote

Sidebar

I realized the need for some form of Government when I heard about the difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.  The Constitution expanded the limits given by the Articles of Confederation, but still clearly defined those limits.  This was done out of necessity.  That epiphany made me a staunch Constitutionalist when it comes to government topics, instead of any form of Anarchist.  We don’t need a centralized government, but we do need a ref.  The Eladrin in Æthercoil would find out the same, and would set up some to be that ref.

You might be right. Hence my monarchist leanings. 

Quote

Item:  How Eladrin treats their Human charges.

It will be apparent that Eladrin would be as evolved above Humans as Humans themselves are evolved above primates.  Because of this, the Eladrin would at least have a subconscious tendency to treat their time tending to humans like a human would with an animal, especially an animal who’s species they’re trying to save.  While some might voice this, most of them would keep in mind that these humans have their own minds and intelligence and have seen what they can do when given the chance.  The Eladrin knows that humans have set foot on the moon, build machines that can act on their own as well, and have even created the chocolate custard filled doughnut.  Humans made the Bismark and the Ham and Egg Muffin; would something like that ever come from a savage?

Humans know apes and wolves can form tribes and make use of each other like miniature civilizations; yet most of us don't extend moral standards to them and treat them like pests or children (especially if we're perverted).

Personally I apply moral agency to everything. Therefore I don't feel bad for eating meat because almost if not all animals are immoral savages.

Likewise... Well, to use "by comparison", the Elves might see us as savages for having ethnic warfare (or perhaps the opposite--what is the best way? The Eladrin essentially represent a species of supermen. Therefore they are either highly nationalistic (perhaps in the ethnic sense, perhaps only in the cultural sense) and hugely skeptical of outsiders or they're the Multikult that actually work), warfare in general (if they're supermen they might not even have war! Or they might only with other species. Like perhaps space dwarves? According to Danish myth, Dwarves and Elves are locked in eternal war). 

Quote

 

 

Nevertheless, the reality still exists much what Sigfried said; that Elves are higher up on the civilization scale than Humans, and that puts the Eladrin in the same position that Europeans are when they’re in the New World or Africa with the Natives.  There are two main differences in this scenario:  The Eladrin might want to live in the realm, they don’t have a coloristic frame of mind: They don’t want conquest, just a place to live with the world.  They also, through their own human history, have knowledge of what happened with Native population when someone from another country showed up and can learn from the fails of Human History.   While there would be some Eladrin that would consider their humans as either pets or experimental critters, the consensus would be One) make sure that humans remain above the dangers of inbreeding (As what my feedback gives me, a half million might be a scary drop from eight billion, it’s still above that danger.) Two) make sure that the humans are able to survive and thrive in the world, and then Three) let them go throughout the surrounding regions to return to their place in the world, hoping that they’d form their own cities, families, farms, and what not.

 

The Eladrin sound like high estrogen god-complexed villains to me. I know they're supposed to be supermen but I have a hard time seeing them as good for they rob the ability of the (comparatively) savage humans to be good on their own. As an American I reject imperialism (of other races at least. I mean imperialism to mean conquering foreign lands and trying to reshape them in our image. Colonialism I'm not against as it is perfectly okay to settle unowned land) and therefore, to make it real, reject the idea of invading or intervening into very distant and alien cultures and races and trying to "Americanize" them. To return to fiction: as a human I reject the elven attempt at trying to make us let them in accordance to their perception of being a master race.

I also smell, consequently, a huge weakness among them: hubris. They may truly be the master species; but can they remain such? Their belief in that they can conquer entire worlds and remake them in their image is a lot like the English belief in colonial times that they could civilize savages and make them Christian. Likewise the Eladrin's world-domination will inevitably backlash onto them. Maybe even the same way modern England is being guilted to death (although not necessarily saying they're going to lose in the long run. Like England's case it could just be a kick in the balls and after the pain sobers them up they might get the message that trying to radically change the world can be evil. As is said: The path to Hell is paved with good intentions). 

NOTE: The fact they wish to live on Earth makes them colonists by default. Conquest in many ways equals taking land from others without their consent. By force. Who asked the Eladrins for their help? They may not have encountered much resistance but they are not in the right, if we are to continue claiming colonialism and imperialism is immoral. 

Quote

 

While the Eladrin will come off as high and mighty and patronizing, most of them will try to get a message across that they’re doing what they can to help.  Some would even tell them what they would feel if they themselves sees an animal that needs help.  Because of this, the human’s reception of the Eladrin would run the gamut, depending on how he was treated.  Some would be resentful of course, depending on how much he had Calm Emotions, Charm Person, or Suggestion cast on him.  (I see the Eladrin use Enchantment Spells in lieu of the paddle.  “Human parents used to spank their children with wooden paddles?!?!?!  What kind of savages are they?!” Also to be spoken is the need to ensure their genetic survival by making sure they breed. I know there’s a couple Eladrin would be interested in Human Breeding.)  Others would be wary of whatever or not these High Elves would decide to take over the planet and enslave every flauna, flora, and sentient being on it. (Some would even keep an eye on them in private to see if that’s their plan.) Right now, I see the common conception of Eladrin as an otherworldly race of beings who arrived in their time of need, brought them back from the brink, and then after making sure that they’ll leave, they just set them free.  Granted, they weren’t the most congenial of folks, but they made it clear that they did the best they could.  Heck, some of them would even be grateful enough to want to stay with the Eladrin.  I want the relations between the two to have a full range from adversarial to affable.

 

Using magic against people (and children especially) is EVEN WORSE than paddling! That's literally brainwashing! It may work but again it robs Free Will and by extension the ability to be moral. The Eladrin are essentially North Koreans.

Quote

Because of this, the human culture will have a lot of fey influence, just as pagan culture and native American culture blended into Christian culture, the Eladrin’s time with them will affect their own culture—especially filling in places where their culture was erased in their fall.  I might not know of every aspect of this influence—I’m still open for suggestions—but I would say that their clothing would be flowing and colorful—something that would be used to tell adventurers apart from townspeople—a taste of cuisine that includes plenty of cakes and wines (although Chocolate would be a human-only delicacy:  I see the Coca plant to affect any Elf like High Proof Alcohol) and a love for learning and affinity for magic.  (I do see Elves ensure that every one of their charges knows out to read; in this setting I’m making, the literacy rate among humans would be up to 99%)

The Eladrin would pick up something as well, especially with introducing some local color in their outfits and finding out what dishes they could make with local game animals.  Tastes of pastimes would need some appropriateness into account: “What the hell is this football about?  Kicking around a ball and crashing into each other?  Sheesh!  The things you do for fun!!  Give me golf any day, it’s a lot more civilized.”

Item:  The World’s Fall

There have been some articles, one made by Stefan himself, that describes the fall of the Roman Empire and listed how the Modern Age is staring down a similar fall.  I see the fall go from what we have now, to Brave New World, and from there the Fall of the Roman Empire.  The rulers of such dystopias will quickly realize how much on sand they built their world on when a dragon shows up.

Item: Post-Fall Geography

I’ll be keeping most of the original names of cities and countries, although I use some derivatives to further denote some geographical regions.  Parts of France and Belgium become Flanders, a part of Germany is renamed Bavaria, Spain is considered a continent, and so on.

Item:  16^th Century dynamics

As Siegfried said, human civilization would be differed more among local cultures and maybe even class than between races and gender.  At this point in the timeline, there would be some city states run by local Lords, but actual kingdoms would be few and far between, and no existing Nation-States around.  The Eladrin might have set up a place for different parties to settle any disputes, but they do not have power over these states (nor do they want to.  They know better.)  Over time, I see this Court (located in Paris) would branch off into smaller such courts throughout the world.

I don't like using Paris as the capital of Western Civilization (effectively) but that's a minor complaint as someone who is very much in favor of the capital being from his ancestral fatherland. No biggie.

However if the Eladrin meddle in human affairs this much, it is pretty much a recreation of 1984 but with ideal outcomes. Like if Communism actually worked. I mean this in the sense that the Eladrin essentially are to humans what humans are to play-dough: controllers and manipulators. If the Eladrin were real I'd be the first to take up arms against them. 

I think it'd be far more interesting, world wise, if humanity reinvented itself and made its own leaps forward upon suffering such horrific consequences and then the Elves came to visit and trade after that. Morally it takes the Elves out of the North Korean category of totalitarian and into what Stefpai suggested aliens might do (invade with shopping malls!).

I think Mass Effect 1 actually did a good job with how humanity might leap forward (though obviously they copped out on a lot since they assumed humanity would remain in its 21st century mindset for the next few centuries) and compete/contest with other species. Legend of the Galactic Heroes does even better since they actually wrote about how humanity fell and rose back up (and it wasn't pretty by any stretch) and eventually colonized the galaxy. 

P.S. I shrank your text because I know if we directly reply to each other using quotes it'll get really big really quickly.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[DavidFoxfire]

Thank you very much admins for clearing my posts at this time.  Just a head’s up, I might need to keep calling upon your services until I get a decent reputation around here.  It’ll take time.  (Unless my fears are realized and the reputation I got form Encyclopedia Dramatica is still following me around wherever I go.)

Item:  The Combos

I doubt that I’ll put the combos in the character sheet; there’s a voice in my head that’s always telling me to “Keep it Simple ****head.”  Nevertheless, having such a combination table in the rules may be a good idea.  I’ll keep with the first four, for now.

I had toyed with using different kinds of combos for a travelling mechanic.  I decided against it in favor for turning the overworld map into a series of paths that resemble a board game.

Item: Alignment

5^th Edition have the dual pole nine alignment system of the classic times.  (Fourth Edition has a single scale that goes {Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil, Chaotic Evil} which is what I thought you meant.)

The main reason why I wanted to implement UPB in my game is because I don’t rely on the traditional nine alignments or (God help me) the monstrosity that is the 4^th Edition version.  I say that because the positions aren’t as nuanced.  We can have Lawful Good Villians and Chaotic Evil Heros.  One man’s Chaotic Neutral is another man’s Neutral Good.  I need something that’s more of a solid standard over who’s acting a good guy and who’s going to get the torch and pitchforks crowd.

Item:  The Lorax

I used the Unless Monument as an image representing the final moral of the story: “Unless someone like you cares a whole lot, it’s not going to get any better, it’s not.”  The Æthercoil setting has suffered not one global societal collapse, but two:  One with the modern day, the second with a dystrophic world government.  Most of the civilized world is left in rubble, and there are less than three million humans left on the world.  (Not enough to be near extinction; I know that by now; but still a frighteningly sharp drop from the seven billion.)  Most of the global culture of the modern day has not just been destroyed but erased from memory.  Almost every point of civilization now resembles Pripyat post Chernobyl, everything in rubble and wilderness reclaiming it.  Anyone who would approach one of these lost cities and remember what that was—could be especially sad if you use something like, a former amusement park—the thought to draw ‘Unless’ somewhere would’ve crossed their mind.

Item:  Using UPB in an overt sense.

In the separate thread discussing how to implement UPB in a Role-Playing Game, the discussion went toward implementing a generally acceptable code of common law. I’ll develop that thought further in that thread.

[RichardY]

Item: Alignment

Yeah some flex in character alignment is cool, I guess you can have characters akin to a Byronic Hero. I haven't actually really played D&D just some PC RPG's, the alignment I was thinking of was off Baldurs Gate.

Item:  The Lorax

It's not a moral, it's a theme and the repetition of it, like at the beginning and end of the fallout games "War, War never changes..." 

Reminds me of a "childrens cartoon" in the UK "Captain Planet" was themed around "environmentalism", but was in fact Communist Propaganda(Propagate). "Captain planet, he's our hero, gonna take pollution down to zero..." Must eat Sh*t in that case.

Interesting that you mentioned amusement parks, reminds me of another childhood  memory of a theme park "Frontier Land" "River Country". A Disney waterpark that was shutdown because the park was fed by water from the nearby lake and there was a brain eating parasite or bacteria in the water supply. It's funny because there are videos on Youtube of it all overgrown with the banjo music still playing.

Another thought, are the characters looking for "Deliverance" or something? 

 

[DavidFoxfire]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:42 PM, RichardY said:

Interesting that you mentioned amusement parks, reminds me of another childhood  memory of a theme park "Frontier Land" "River Country". A Disney waterpark that was shutdown because the park was fed by water from the nearby lake and there was a brain eating parasite or bacteria in the water supply. It's funny because there are videos on Youtube of it all overgrown with the banjo music still playing.

Another thought, are the characters looking for "Deliverance" or something? 

I remember that water park all too fondly.  Too bad what happened to it.  I guess it's what you get when you build a park inside a lake.

 

On 2/21/2018 at 6:40 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

P.S. I shrank your text because I know if we directly reply to each other using quotes it'll get really big really quickly.

Yeah, I know…although sometimes we don’t have to, case in point:

I think I’ve gotten to a point where I figure out that an idea I had in my mind just won’t fly and must be taken out, a necessity I doubt I’ll get to until after I post about it in a forum like this one.  And that’s the part about the Eladrin using Mind Control to educate the survivors.  Too much like North Korea, as you said, and you’re right looking back on it.  So out it goes.  Good thing I didn’t put that part into the Quick Rules.

However, having the Eladrin be estrogen-filled superbeings struggling with hubris is not lost. I’d also would have them be aware of such god-complexes, in some level, as they settle on Earth.  (I only picked Paris because my first geographical location is in Eurpoe; I’ll get to the Americas soon enough.)  Some might have something like a particular hang-up like what Superman voiced in Justice League: the “I live in a world made of cardboard!” line.  Some of them would even be aware of it while they’re on the earth and they’d go, “Well, I never thought of it that way.”  In the end, the Eladrin leans something as they make their rescue.

So instead of using mind control—which is dropped at this point—the more traditional form of education and child-rearing is to be used.   I’ll look for alternatives for the scenario where a bunch of children were rescued from a dystropia and were raised by, if not a whole bunch, at least some Elves.  Maybe through mentorships or something else.

Also, that I need to remember is something I haven’t mentioned yet.  Eladrin and most High Fey fall on the Chaotic side of the Alignment Chart, usually Chaotic Good.  They would see the independent streak in humans and the love for their personal freedom as something they themselves admire. (Again, another reason why I’m striking out Mind Control.  I should’ve remembered that Elves value personal freedom.)

Therefore, I need to rethink the Rescue Humans Scenario.  There will be a time when the Eladrin will need to help the remaining humans at the start, but there’s going to need another approach.  I’m open for suggestions, but I think I have some thoughts as an immediate replacement to the “North Korea” scenario.

One, the Eladrin assume more normal Elven forms, turning into Moon Elves (High Elves in the Player’s Handbook) and Forest Elves (Wild Elves in the PH).  Still Fey, but more natural looking and approachable.  They would approach the survivors and ask if they could help.  Some humans might shy away, of course, but others, especially children, would be looking for someone to be the adult in the room.  And even in this second attempt, compared to even the most Mature Human, an Elf is still an Adult in the room.  (Again, it’s their godlike nature.)  Some would resist, but they’d resist like an injured animal that doesn’t know that the human reaching out to it actually wants to heal it, an image not lost on a human once he’s aware of it.  Enough humans for me to keep this scenario will realize that these Alien beings are here to help, and will approach them, albeit wearily.

Two, they use more traditional techniques on the children they do take in.  They teach them language the way a normal Mother would toward their child:  They talk and read out loud to them.  Knowing that these humans need outlets for their rambunctiousness, they’d made sure that their charges have plenty of outlets—especially outlets that can release all of that savage energies without much danger—An example would be the construction of dungeons and LARP style adventure parks designed to give an adventurous human some much needed learning experience with non-lethal traps and actors playing monsters with wooden or blunt weapons.  (And special amulets that can absorb spells tossed their way so they only need to ‘act’ being hit).  In this stage, a form of Scouting or Apprenticeship comes into play where skills needed to survive in the wild are taught.  (How to hunt, how to grow a farm, how to fend off an orc, the finer points of dungeon delving, and of course learning magic.)  At this stage, some humans will show some specialized skill or talent, which the Eladrin would encourage and support, especially when it’s a skill that can help him make it on their own.  (In other words, training a child up in the way he should go, so when he is grown he won’t depart from it.)

Three, once the humans have begun their turnaround and are now thriving in their new world, the Eladrin would fade back, though not as far as they have before.  They’ll settle into their own communities and live there, adding their own culture with the humans and hopefully make sure that the humans do not go into another world war too soon.  This will be what Stephan would call “invading with shopping malls,” only in this case, you can add some LARPing Parks into the mix (see the above paragraph.) At this point, the image of them being like the Roman Empire comes into play, where the humans know that they’re of a higher class and nature from them.  But the Eladrin won’t colonize or do any empire building beyond their own homesteads.  If they do intervene, it’s to form a vehicle to settle the eventual tribal conflicts without the need for warfare, which everyone would know will happen.  As the humans go out, they’ll eventually form communities and tribes, and as such tribes will run into each other and have disagreements.  Disagreements that sometimes start wars.

I think this three-point scenario is far better than the shot-down first attempt.  It retains the original intention of rescuing humanity while maintaining the human’s agency and free will, which was imperative that I add.  Would this be a better path to take?

[Siegfried von Walheim]

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

Yeah, I know…although sometimes we don’t have to, case in point:

It's easier for me to respond; normally I read it then break it into quote bits so I can answer parts directly AND re-read it as I'm answering it. Especially helpful in tired mornings 

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

I think I’ve gotten to a point where I figure out that an idea I had in my mind just won’t fly and must be taken out, a necessity I doubt I’ll get to until after I post about it in a forum like this one.  And that’s the part about the Eladrin using Mind Control to educate the survivors.  Too much like North Korea, as you said, and you’re right looking back on it.  So out it goes.  Good thing I didn’t put that part into the Quick Rules.

However, having the Eladrin be estrogen-filled superbeings struggling with hubris is not lost. I’d also would have them be aware of such god-complexes, in some level, as they settle on Earth.  (I only picked Paris because my first geographical location is in Eurpoe; I’ll get to the Americas soon enough.)  Some might have something like a particular hang-up like what Superman voiced in Justice League: the “I live in a world made of cardboard!” line.  Some of them would even be aware of it while they’re on the earth and they’d go, “Well, I never thought of it that way.”  In the end, the Eladrin leans something as they make their rescue.

From what I can tell, the Eladrin are fundementally meant to be good and virtuous people. The first image that comes to mind is really the Roman Catholic Church more than any empire since it went far and wide to educate and enlighten the world; not just religiously, but also in matters of medicine, food, clothing, shelter, etc. 

The Roman Catholic Church was also filled with testosterone. I was just thinking it'd make more sense (unless...see below) for the Eladrin to be a fuse between that ideal masculine we see on black-and-white screens (you know the big men that don't really fight with words but with fists and are generally able to otherwise settle things in an almost non-verbal way, the ones with the broad shoulders and square jaws and experienced eyes) with modern knowledge of parenting and philosophy (thus perhaps en route to creating a super species). I figure if I were the writer behind this, and I wanted to make a superior species, I'd base it on the best of mankind at mankind's best and fuse it with the knowledge we have now but didn't then. Arguably the best of mankind was in America before WWII and maybe before WWI. The best of the best had left Europe nearly a century before and made a stake to rebuild themselves in a new country, forming effectively a new race ("American") of super-Whites (just look at modern IQ averages of Midwestern States to see how the average IQ of White Americans, at least there, is 104 relative to the high 90's common in Europe) combined with the entrepreneurial and rational philosophy of the "Old Stock" (i.e. Native American from the Revolutionary Period) Americans. 

Applied here: I figure the Eladrin ought to at least emulate the ideal of what we're now calling "benevolent patriarchy" similar to the early 20th and mid to late 19th centuries while at the same time being far more knowledgeable about philosophy and practical stuff. The result being manly men and womanly women generally peacefully raising their kids, thus forming tightly bonded kin groups which extend to forming a greater sense of racial/special community (I put "special" since it sounds like the Eladrin are one race rather than comprised of many races. Either then they were the only race of their own species to get off their rock or they annihilated/amalgamated/assimilated them all) and having essentially the best of individualism with the best of collectivism (individual responsibility + Free Will + sense of community + ethics etc.) they are generally a highly admirable species yet even they have far superior role models and ideals they fall short to similar to how many White men/boys emulate what they think is the ideal male; whether it be the estrogen-filled beta type or the testosterone filled hero type. 

On the other hand, if your intention is to provide them with a fatal flaw (i.e. they grew perhaps unwittingly this weakness like a cancer) then being extremely effeminate and colonialist (i.e. conquer the world to save the world) makes sense. 

However if the idea is to create supermen with weaknesses that are more subtle (i.e. we wouldn't think of them off the bat because it's an upgrade relative to us) then I'd suggest pumping some testosterone into them.

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

So instead of using mind control—which is dropped at this point—the more traditional form of education and child-rearing is to be used.   I’ll look for alternatives for the scenario where a bunch of children were rescued from a dystropia and were raised by, if not a whole bunch, at least some Elves.  Maybe through mentorships or something else.

To refer to the Roman Catholic Church, the Jesuits didn't raise directly the children of those races they attempted to elevate. Usually just the orphans, instead they took generally an advisory role except in matters they're skilled in (like surgery and medicine). Likewise I'd recommend the elves here take a more advisory and Jesuit-style role, especially if you want them to be benign rather than malignant. 

Perhaps you could use Sengoka Era Japan as a model since Jesuits helped out a lot there and yet when the wars were over their ruler forcibly evicted most of them and persecuted most of the Christians (and converts). Yet in spite of that quite a few daimyo (legal warlords) converted to Roman Catholicism with even one Sorin Otomo adopting the name "Francisco" and sending a (successful) emissary to the Pope in Rome and another Kanbei Kuroda retaining his Catholic conversion secretly and another still named Masamune Date whose own daughter was a Christian convert and he made very friendly with the European Christians and merchants in spite of the laws (largely thanks to his relative power and geographical isolation).

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

 

Also, that I need to remember is something I haven’t mentioned yet.  Eladrin and most High Fey fall on the Chaotic side of the Alignment Chart, usually Chaotic Good.  They would see the independent streak in humans and the love for their personal freedom as something they themselves admire. (Again, another reason why I’m striking out Mind Control.  I should’ve remembered that Elves value personal freedom.)

So basically they're Jesuits? I think that's the angle you should imagine the Eladrin colonials from if you want Free Will + Education without conquest. 

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

Therefore, I need to rethink the Rescue Humans Scenario.  There will be a time when the Eladrin will need to help the remaining humans at the start, but there’s going to need another approach.  I’m open for suggestions, but I think I have some thoughts as an immediate replacement to the “North Korea” scenario.

My suggestion put simply is the "Jesuit Elf Scenario", in which well-meaning foreigners come over to help us out of our barbarism and while so listen attentively others ignore. Those who listen (especially as a society) benefit well while those who ignore essentially remain barbarians to be tamed.

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

One, the Eladrin assume more normal Elven forms, turning into Moon Elves (High Elves in the Player’s Handbook) and Forest Elves (Wild Elves in the PH).  Still Fey, but more natural looking and approachable.  They would approach the survivors and ask if they could help.  Some humans might shy away, of course, but others, especially children, would be looking for someone to be the adult in the room.  And even in this second attempt, compared to even the most Mature Human, an Elf is still an Adult in the room.  (Again, it’s their godlike nature.)  Some would resist, but they’d resist like an injured animal that doesn’t know that the human reaching out to it actually wants to heal it, an image not lost on a human once he’s aware of it.  Enough humans for me to keep this scenario will realize that these Alien beings are here to help, and will approach them, albeit wearily.

Not enough, I should think. Remember it's only like 5% of the population that ever sees the hero as the hero and the villain as the villain. Most are either neutral or in the way. It's not till after the fact a majority might appreciate the heroes from the villains. 

Hence I think no more than one country (if the conversion is made willfully rather than forcibly) ought to be "enlightened" and elevated as most will be too bullish and reactionary (especially if their more "liberal" characteristics were killed as a result of the --insert world ending catastrophe of 300-3,000 years ago--) even if they're totally wrong and going too far in the opposite direction. 

I only objected to Paris because I'm German, but I think it'd be interesting if an IRL small country were the lucky enlightened ones. Denmark really strikes me because it is both small yet geograhically diverse with islands, forests, open plans, lots of water, and just a boat ride away from the mountains of Norway and the coats of Germany and the Baltic States. Plus they're in the middle without being in the crossfires. 

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

 

Two, they use more traditional techniques on the children they do take in.  They teach them language the way a normal Mother would toward their child:  They talk and read out loud to them.  Knowing that these humans need outlets for their rambunctiousness, they’d made sure that their charges have plenty of outlets—especially outlets that can release all of that savage energies without much danger—An example would be the construction of dungeons and LARP style adventure parks designed to give an adventurous human some much needed learning experience with non-lethal traps and actors playing monsters with wooden or blunt weapons.  (And special amulets that can absorb spells tossed their way so they only need to ‘act’ being hit).  In this stage, a form of Scouting or Apprenticeship comes into play where skills needed to survive in the wild are taught.  (How to hunt, how to grow a farm, how to fend off an orc, the finer points of dungeon delving, and of course learning magic.)  At this stage, some humans will show some specialized skill or talent, which the Eladrin would encourage and support, especially when it’s a skill that can help him make it on their own.  (In other words, training a child up in the way he should go, so when he is grown he won’t depart from it.)

Hey man don't deprecate your fellow bipeds!

Still not a bad idea in theory. I just think it should be handled Jesuit-style in order to make it explicitly clear they're here to advise not to dictate. I'd remove the idea of it being LARPing because theoretically magic + Final Fantasy-esque intervention would have a bit of anachronistic something that could act as a dungeon-generator/training grounds (basically what you said but differently phrased and imagined). 

Are you familiar with Final Fantasy VIII? I really loved their "Garden" idea. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just look up the game and "Balamb Garden", as it is both a sanctuary and a place of education for the residents (to be both self-sufficient and helpful to the greater world). A division of Balamb has a "labyrinth" which functionally acts as both a random dungeon generator and graduation test for the "S.E.E.D.S." (the player-character hero types who fight as compared to the citizens who do the peace-time work). A tangent but a personal project of mine is to write a book incorporating something like this with ideal AnCapiStan. It's just so fascinating a fictional world and creation that even though the game itself wasn't terribly memorable for me (beyond some key parts) the "Gardens" really stood out as creative genius, especially how they combined necessity and efficiency with style and tranquility. Like a slice of Eden in a cold and frosty wilderness.

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

 

Three, once the humans have begun their turnaround and are now thriving in their new world, the Eladrin would fade back, though not as far as they have before.  They’ll settle into their own communities and live there, adding their own culture with the humans and hopefully make sure that the humans do not go into another world war too soon.  This will be what Stephan would call “invading with shopping malls,” only in this case, you can add some LARPing Parks into the mix (see the above paragraph.) At this point, the image of them being like the Roman Empire comes into play, where the humans know that they’re of a higher class and nature from them.  But the Eladrin won’t colonize or do any empire building beyond their own homesteads.  If they do intervene, it’s to form a vehicle to settle the eventual tribal conflicts without the need for warfare, which everyone would know will happen.  As the humans go out, they’ll eventually form communities and tribes, and as such tribes will run into each other and have disagreements.  Disagreements that sometimes start wars.

*Stefan/Stefpai

Beyond the "Jesuits" I don't think there should be any Eladrins (because otherwise they are technically invaders and if you want them to be highly moralistic good guys they they ought to only live amongst the countries that willfully accept their immigration) unless you either do what I wrote in the thought bubble or something else. 

4 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

 

I think this three-point scenario is far better than the shot-down first attempt.  It retains the original intention of rescuing humanity while maintaining the human’s agency and free will, which was imperative that I add.  Would this be a better path to take?

 

I think the best path is to adapt it to a more "Jesuit in Feudal Japan" style since you get the philosophers (Jesuits); the patients (Japanese); the willful enlightened (converts); the willful ignorant (the persecutors); and the unmet (everyone else). Plus it'd serve as a good model in imagining "micro-nations" competing (both friendly and hostilely) with other "micro-nations" and would have an air of historical authenticity to it as well.

Ideally you'd have both a benevolent species trying to elevate the Earthens/Earthlings/Humans + a diverse subject (i.e. some react positively, others negatively, most ignore, and a few actually listen and adopt thus becoming the one little country that converts in a sea of barbarism) + the Free Will to decide both individually and collectively. 

How does "Jesuit Style" sound?

[DavidFoxfire]

Reading along your suggestions, having the Eladrin being Jesuit-like missionaries, more interested in education and culture-sharing than conquest, I do feel that this would be a better way to go.  The main difference between the Jesuits and the Eladrin would be where that testosterone is expressed.  Fey races, especially the Archfey types, are by nature pretty androgynous.  Some of them could even switch genders at will.  While I would never see one of them built like Arnold Schwarzenegger physically, I can nevertheless have them take on Masculine roles, at least in spirit if not in body.  Also, they have been watching human behavior for eons, so they can also play the role if need be.  Read:  They might not be overly muscular with square jaws, but they’d still have experienced eyes, stands up straight with their shoulders broad, and would rather wish to be shot then ever have one of those Soylent Grins on their faces.  If you see them smile, they’ll use their eyes as well as their mouths.

To paraphrase Mr. Spock, Eladrin would show, “Masculinity, but not as we know it.”  While they would never look like human males, they would be more interested in educating, mentoring, medicine, and what not.

At the original storyline, I have the majority of the survivors of the fallen dystropia be orphans; a common theme of a dystopia is the abolition of parents a la Brave New World.  A good number of them would be able to survive on their own with little training (Maybe a single Eladrin would accompany a group as they look for a place to live) and the hope that they won’t end up like Lord of the Flies, but a good number of them would have to be taken in by the Eladrin. (Who would fear that the Human species would go extinct Lord of the Flies style, with the children forming tribes and attacking each other like real savages.  (In fact, having humans flee into the wilderness and turning savage is how they become Orcs.  I even have them undergo a physical transformation.)

The older humans would no doubt flee when the Eladrin come and defeat the dystropic government. (And do it with abject ease.  The Government focused so much on subjugating human beings that they had zero resistance against an evolved lifeform.) It would be the younger children, who haven’t had the capacity for trust beaten out of them, who would approach the Eladrin.  If there’s going to be just one small enlightened country in the setting, it would be created with these Eladrin and their orphan wards.  And I’ve seen Final Fantasy VIII and know about Balamb Garden.  It’s a good guess that the Eladrin would construct their own Garden in the remnants of Paris to tend to and later educate the humans.

The only reason why I chose Paris is because that the imagery of Paris, especially its history, would appeal to Eladrin the best, knowing their preference for elegance and beauty.  However, there are two locations in Germany that you might be interested in; I’ll be writing fiction stories set in these locations.  One is in Western Germany, around the small village of Karlsbruun.  This would be a settlement created by villagers who escaped fled the collapse of the dystropia and found a place to rebuild and are not directly influenced by the Eladrin (although there would be a mission there.) One of the inhabitants is a dragonjin (a half-human half-dragon) named Eisenhower who is more known as an author than a dragon watching over the village in his castle lair overlooking the village from a nearby mountain.  The other is in the Black Forest area in Eastern Germany, where a witch’s coven lives there.  Run by a circle of witches who assumed the identities and personas of Grimm’s Fairy Tale characters, they protect the forest from intruders as well as take in their own orphan children and raising them in the craft.  The story set in this Black Forest region will focus on a girl who was taken in and raised as one of their own.

I think you might be interested in one of these two scenarios if not both.

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

3 hours ago, DavidFoxfire said:

Reading along your suggestions, having the Eladrin being Jesuit-like missionaries, more interested in education and culture-sharing than conquest, I do feel that this would be a better way to go.  The main difference between the Jesuits and the Eladrin would be where that testosterone is expressed.  Fey races, especially the Archfey types, are by nature pretty androgynous.  Some of them could even switch genders at will.  While I would never see one of them built like Arnold Schwarzenegger physically, I can nevertheless have them take on Masculine roles, at least in spirit if not in body.  Also, they have been watching human behavior for eons, so they can also play the role if need be.  Read:  They might not be overly muscular with square jaws, but they’d still have experienced eyes, stands up straight with their shoulders broad, and would rather wish to be shot then ever have one of those Soylent Grins on their faces.  If you see them smile, they’ll use their eyes as well as their mouths.

So basically Russians? lol that's based on my experience with them. They never smile falsely or for social graces, and can be a bit awkward when they try for conformity's sake but when they're amongst their own they tend to speak few words and distrust fake expressions (like "how are you doing?" to mean anything but literally "how are you doing?" , unlike American English where the expression is typically used as a conversation starter. They typically don't do that and go straight for the point, even the shy ones). 

Of course the differences between the Eladrin and the Russians I assume is more than just physical, as obviously Russians don't like like traps (usually--I'm sure there's one or two) and I assume the Eladrin don't make jokes with a straight face so often as the Russians tend to. But your description does sound like Russians to me (in spirit but not in body). 

On their culture: how are gender roles? I don't think elven childhood would be the same as human childhood even optimally if they're basically a race of traps (I mean androgynous). Also note that's a sign of r-selection; typically k-selected species have very noticeable differences between genders and by extension far better defined gender roles. Meanwhile rabbits... Can you tell a boy from a girl without "checking"? 

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To paraphrase Mr. Spock, Eladrin would show, “Masculinity, but not as we know it.”  While they would never look like human males, they would be more interested in educating, mentoring, medicine, and what not.

They sound like Germans. ;-)

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At the original storyline, I have the majority of the survivors of the fallen dystropia be orphans; a common theme of a dystopia is the abolition of parents a la Brave New World.  A good number of them would be able to survive on their own with little training (Maybe a single Eladrin would accompany a group as they look for a place to live) and the hope that they won’t end up like Lord of the Flies, but a good number of them would have to be taken in by the Eladrin. (Who would fear that the Human species would go extinct Lord of the Flies style, with the children forming tribes and attacking each other like real savages.  (In fact, having humans flee into the wilderness and turning savage is how they become Orcs.  I even have them undergo a physical transformation.)

Hmm... I like the idea for orcs being "devolved humans" (in a sense), but... how many decades is "Eladrin Discovery of Earth" from "the collapse of the universal state"? I don't know why orphans would survive the most given, to the best of my knowledge, children die far more in greater number than adults. Unless you meant adult orphans. In which case I'd assume they have the basics of the basics in understanding how to reproduce, form a tribe, and perhaps settle into villages. When I say this I mean "barbarian-style" basics of course. 

Here's why I think at least a century should be fit between the collapse and the discovery of Earth by the Eladrin; If the Universal State (to just give it a name for practical purposes) were to collapse under its own weight, I'd assume it'd result in warlords and warring states. If they're "well-armed" (i.e. nuclear) and more than a little nihilistic and impulsive, you have a very good case as to how Rome could fall very quickly rather than over 500 years (civil wars of 3rd century to total collapse by the 8th) AND a good reason why technology is, at least initially, far more medieval than modern. Once the Eladrin show up, they're like "hey guys: I see you have a history problem. Sit down and let me teach you something..." and then of course a minority will accept while most will, for one reason or another, reject and over time there will be a clear divide from the pockets of civilization and the bandit tribes and the downright savage orcs. 

I don't think the Eladrin should directly topple the Universal State--that's not much different from America toppling the Syrian government (not trying to compare the governments but rather the power disparity and the subsequent vacuum) and the result of this would be either the humans are highly dependent upon the Eldarin (thus they must be conquerors and a message to the players is that conquest to save a species is just rather than mutually destructive) or when the Eldarin pull out... Well there are vacuums and all that stuff I'm sure you heard said during the Republican Primary Debates. 

Therefore I suggest having the Universal State collapse into warring states who obliterate each other and then give at least a generation for the humans to reform themselves based on their traumas (and lessons learned--both the right and the wrong) and what little remnants of Rome remains for them to rebuild from. THEN the Eladrin can start sending missionaries to elevate the human races and, as far as Europe is concerned, there can be a focus on perhaps a handful of cities populated by perhaps 50,000 each and those cities will be the ones who willingly elevate (and thus become like enclaves rather than merely walled fortresses)  and thus be the "starting points".

I recommend 3 real-life cities based on geography for ideas: Split (Croatia, the Dalmatian Coast and facing the Mediterranean Sea), Novgorod (Russia, facing the Baltic Sea), and Odesa (the Ukraine, facing the Black Sea). I'll mention why these or something similar might work best further down.

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The older humans would no doubt flee when the Eladrin come and defeat the dystropic government. (And do it with abject ease.  The Government focused so much on subjugating human beings that they had zero resistance against an evolved lifeform.)

See: this I don't like because it is basically America toppling Syria, Iran, or similar. I prefer them falling naturally and the Eladrin coming in once the dust has settled. More on that above.

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It would be the younger children, who haven’t had the capacity for trust beaten out of them, who would approach the Eladrin.  If there’s going to be just one small enlightened country in the setting, it would be created with these Eladrin and their orphan wards.  And I’ve seen Final Fantasy VIII and know about Balamb Garden.  It’s a good guess that the Eladrin would construct their own Garden in the remnants of Paris to tend to and later educate the humans.

Why the younger children? If anything they'd be the most resistant because empirically foreign adults=invaders and adults in general = unreliable and no-good. In this scenario especially I think the children would not only have had horrible war-zone-quality childhoods (see a picture of Bill Clinton with a Serbian boy. Note the face of the little Serb; note how traumatized and ready to fight he looks rather than soft and cute. You have to see the little victims of war to get a good mental picture and understanding of why they especially would be the most skeptical and resistant). If anyone should be the first to reach out it should be the elders because at least some of them would have the mental horsepower to realize if they don't change for the better (try something different at least) they'll just continously fall. The kids? If anything they want to fight and get revenge against whomever caused their lives to be so miserable. Remember: the troops of the warlords in real failed states are often youths and seldom are the forced to fight. They are often either volunteers or paid (to use Europe during the Thirty Years' War and China during the Three Kingdoms and just before that (184-260-something) as evidence). Meanwhile the elders (whom are often survivors) at least a minority realizes the trap they're in.

Therefore I recommend not focusing on the explorative and curious children because such traits are symptoms of healthy childhoods not war-torn ones. And I think it's safe to say that whether their childhood was till now either visions of societal collapse or warring tribes they'll be far more prone to aggressiveness and impulsiveness. Perhaps I am missing a key point in the pre-history because I would assume during and after the collapse would be very violent while before the collapse would be both very controlled (1984 style) and very abusive (in every manner you can imagine). If the collapse was 100 years ago (100 years before Eladrin--maybe you should make a new calendar? Same months and days but have the first year be the year just after the Universal State's collapse into warring states) then they ought to be very tough but also very aggressive. If it was 10 years ago they ought to be either heavily broken (as a result of drugs) and thus "orc-like" or very traumatized (even if not directly through bad parents or warfare than indirectly from the environment).

Thus, I repeat, give a century and you can "cool the turkey" as it were. Let the dust settle and let things have happened before Eladrin missionary visits and then you can jump forward a generation and it's the year 120 A.C. (After Collapse. Perhaps another acronym would be more fashionable but I think this is a good start).

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The only reason why I chose Paris is because that the imagery of Paris, especially its history, would appeal to Eladrin the best, knowing their preference for elegance and beauty.

Paris has, throughout history since the end of the Thirty Years War, epitomized hypocrisy and decay. I don't think the moral and upright Eladrin would prefer the Parisians for their culture. Their culture is promiscuity, superficiality, lies, violence, viciousness, etc. etc. Degradation at its worst. I think you just have a soft spot for Paris like I do Copenhagen and other Germanic settlements for some reason or another. I mainly suggest certain places for geography reasons since you can just make up the culture given enough centuries to fill up in.

Culturally I think the American Midwest (even now) best epitomizes the Eladrin: reason, daring, pioneering, curiosity, protectiveness, etc. In Europe there are a few similar spots but I think they'd mainly be English. Otherwise nowhere is quite "right". Besides I think the Eladrin ought to be more than superficial rabbits; otherwise why aren't they the subjugated species? 

Therefore if you're going by culture I can't say much of Europe beyond England, somewhat Italy, and somewhat Germany and Russia. None of them really jell like Aerica does. However I think Russia might not be a bad idea since Russians have a history of struggling, rebuilding, surviving, and maybe sometimes thriving. Novgorod is by the Baltic Sea therefore it can connect to other civilized human settlements fairly easily (assume sea monsters aren't that big a deal). Croatia is not so good but I think Split is good geographically for its access to Italy. Odesa similar but focused towards Turkey, Greece, and the Caucuses. I think...

Novgorod could equal a semi-republican society in which prominent citizens (thanes perhaps? Or to go Russian: boyars which were both lords and military commanders) elect a Duke (or to really go Russian: a Duke or a transliteration of the Russian version of the word) who acts as both the civil and martial authority. His powers are dictated by a charter written originally the first boyars and consented to by their first citizens. Voters are landed citizens (i.e. they own land. At all) with the weight of the vote based on where they are in a hierarchy. The Boyars are equally on top and "made" by being married into from the Knights (or perhaps a Russian equivalent) who are made via anointment by the Duke once a landed citizen has demonstrated himself as a special citizen either as a result of great moral character, merit through private service (business, inventions, etc.) or wartime excellence. The Boyar is worth 5 Knights (and perhaps may have 5 knights owe them military obligations in exchange for not being taxed); the Knight is worth 5 landed citizens (whom are taxed by Boyars but not Knights). The "civil contract" is that the Duke and the Ducal family exemplify moral and administrate excellence in exchange for tax monies with which to both administrate and keep a small portion of as income--tax comes from the Boyars-- and the Boyars tax the landed citizens in exchange for protecting their properties from bandits, looters, vagabonds, thieves, etc. Those who don't own land are, like historical feudalism, not taxed but there is no welfare beyond charity and charity is only there for those willing to seek work. Like historical Novgorod I think an Orthodox Church should exist to act as the spiritual guide and moral compass of the citizens. This is a Roman model somewhat Germanized. Not to be confused with an American-style republic since the Dukes almost always come from established families (either wealthy or titled or both) and thus several families on high would have a history of having a Duke at some point. Also they're for life. Assume an average of 12 years per Ducal cycle as a result.

Split could be similarly designed but with a more "curious" and therefore entrepreneurial culture that results in nobles effectively being little different from private citizens owning large amounts of land. Unlike Novgorod the Church would be Catholic like real life. The city in general would thrive on trade like Novgorod but more so as a result of being more trafficked and having far more emigrants seeking to stake their claim in "the Wilderness". Perhaps a "Little England" here? 

Odesa on the other hand would be similar to both but more militaristic and "tough" like the free Cossack nomads of history past. Far more aggressive than talkative but also highly respecting of agreed upon "rights". The Hetman of Odesa (who is as much a mayor/king as he is a nomadic khan) is an elected position by the commanders of the nomadic fighters and warriors (perhaps explorers too?) but not the citizens nor the landed citizens. Thus somewhat a military-state but since most of its citizens would be involved in the nomadic expeditions to settle the Ukrainian country (reclaim it perhaps from its decayed former self?) they would naturally have an impact on their sergeants whom impact their commanders and thus the Hetman. 

What do you think? Add in Paris and some other places too and perhaps we have ingredients for a bevy of different European cultures and political and social systems. Gaming-wise Odesa (or "the Cossacks") fit a semi-nomadic/explorative style and thus make good hunter, horseman (a subdivision of fighter perhaps?), arches (especially horse-archers!) and scouts. Novgorod would be good for mages (because...well, I like snow and I think magic looks prettiest when it's cold and assuming magic and intelligence go hand in hand then ironically the most rational people would be the most magical... Well that's a stretch I'm making) or at least viking-like warriors and paladins. Split would be scholarly (and thus perhaps mage-like?) and more focused on negotiating since that's they're thing. These three cities might be friends, enemies, or merely rivals (no real wars with each but perhaps competition that might lead to disagreements, some violent some not). 

Add in the Garden style... And my goodness does that not spark the imagination? I envision all of them having their cultures reflecting their "Gardens". The Novogordians are straight-forward and direct but perhaps a bit grandiose and thus prone to sentimentalism. The Dalmatians are verbose but perhaps prone to dishonesty, but in exchange tend to speak longer than most before resorting to fighting. The Cossacks are forward and prone to fighting but tend to be flighty and shy from prolonged engagements that they can't settle quickly. They embody both a warrior-spirit as well as an explorer's spirit with a touch of deference to authority. 

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However, there are two locations in Germany that you might be interested in; I’ll be writing fiction stories set in these locations.  One is in Western Germany, around the small village of Karlsbruun.  This would be a settlement created by villagers who escaped fled the collapse of the dystropia and found a place to rebuild and are not directly influenced by the Eladrin (although there would be a mission there.) One of the inhabitants is a dragonjin (a half-human half-dragon) named Eisenhower who is more known as an author than a dragon watching over the village in his castle lair overlooking the village from a nearby mountain.  The other is in the Black Forest area in Eastern Germany, where a witch’s coven lives there.  Run by a circle of witches who assumed the identities and personas of Grimm’s Fairy Tale characters, they protect the forest from intruders as well as take in their own orphan children and raising them in the craft.  The story set in this Black Forest region will focus on a girl who was taken in and raised as one of their own.

I think you might be interested in one of these two scenarios if not both.

I'd write my own ;-) 

Well, I am technically but not with your world. If I were to play a finished version of this game I'd want to start out somewhere like Novgorod. Insert myself as the son of say... a landed voting citizen but not titled. Educated. Christian. With equal amounts verbosity and action. Interested in reclaiming the Great Rus (or Russia) and rediscovering our racial and cultural heritage. With the assistance of the good Eladrin Missionaries, I might learn how to properly fight with "modern" (think sci-fi FF-style swords??? :-D) weaponry and, with a hefty investment from Father, purchase a proper sword and other necessities for an exploring warrior, form a band with close friends and set out to... reclaim Saint Petersberg. 

Although I want the governments of the various settings I created (I don't think AnCap should be the default setting; perhaps there is one but its small and very selective of whom they reveal their settlements to. Yet as traders they come to your city rather than you going to their's ) to be fitting for the theme of enlightenment, UPB, and Peaceful Parenting I don't want to focus on them competing too much (outside trade and small bouts and perhaps tournaments?) with each other but rather focus on the world and the reclamation and the union against barbarism (the orcs? The bandits? The really bad humans trying to recreate the Universal State?). I doubt the best of what humanity has left will fight bloodily with each other while they still need each other and Missionaries intervene (perhaps threaten to cut-off trade and education with those who might violate each other's NAP) when they refuse to control themselves. 

Perhaps... Perhaps the Eladrin themselves have an AnCap going on? In which case...maybe a goal is to "prove myself" to them so that I might "visit them" or even "join them"? Heck there's a lot of possibilities here...

What do you think? I love to hijack but I don't want to do that. I'd rather start from scratch in the future when I'm done my current project perhaps but for now I'm curious how this post will shape your's? 

ADDED: An Idea Plus Initial Statement of Preference in How I Play RPGs

Whenever I play an RPG--even a story-heavy one--I tend to project myself into the main player character. Therefore I would try to write myself to be as true to who I am in real as possible but perhaps with a twist for interest. Like in real life I'm a genius who's naturally gifted in language but not much else. Therefore statistically I'd be high intelligence and mediocre to low everything else. I am not too sure what metric you're using to measure broadly the capabilities of main characters and NPCs but to borrow Fallout's and use "3" as "mediocre" then I'd be like: "STR: 3; PER:2; END: 3;CHA:5; INT:7; AGL: 2; LCK: 3" with a total of 25 points distributed. A fairly skillful but otherwise mediocre (and therefore challenging) character. I know traditional D&D isn't quite "SPECIAL" but I know there's some translatable elements (though I think the cap is 19 rather than 10). I would, in projecting myself into this fictional future, attempt to find people to cover my weaknesses and specialize where I'm soft. I'd assume either fellow players or invented companion characters would compliment me somewhat but otherwise I'd have/want to find some more combat-focused characters so I can stand a chance as an explorer or pioneer outside civilization. 

Perhaps in my scenario I'm focusing on general leadership and using my skills to both attract like-minded people and perhaps... Well, remember how I said I wanted a generational system? I think I know a way in which it could work.

Fallout 4 (I know D&D has a specific system but I don't know it or am able to really "frame" for it, so I'd appreciate you "translate" my Fallout-ese here!) had SPECIAL with most characters having 21 points to distribute plus 1 to each SPECIAL.

I think you could use 21 with most people having a 3-average as a "standard" and then...combine genetics into it so some people have a higher point total. Like Cao Cao (historical warlord, poet, statesman, strategist, etc) would have a FAR higher point total like around 50 out of 70 to reflect his historically exceptional and multi-talented traits. I think upper-class people in general would average around 30 total points with middle-class at around 25. Using this logic...

When a P.C. (Player Character I mean) marries and has kids, the kids could, within a window, have a point total that is the middle or more or less of their parents. If they had a good childhood (plus good luck) they could have a few extra points than their superior parent. If they have a bad childhood they could lose a point or two. If they're lucky or unlucky in spite of their childhood (which could either be determined like a series of multiple-choice or be a D&D mini-scenario in itself) they could be quite high or quite low (like how sometimes geniuses are born or hobos and disabled people are occasionally born of geniuses).

Then the real-life player could play on as the child once the previous P.C. "retires" or "hands over the mantle". I think this could work very well with a time and travel system. Like if my theoretical campaign takes me 10 years from age 20 (I'm 19 right now btw) to accomplish (i.e. takes 10 years to successfully reclaim the dungeon-city of Saint Petersberg and perhaps become a boyar) and by the end I've "found" (whether by chance, creation, or story-related etc.) a wife and chosen to settle down with her, my heir (whomever I choose to "inhabit" not necessarily my material heir in the property or leadership sense) would be my next player and could go on to do another life-long mission. Like maybe develop Saint Petersberg or his neighborhood to rival Novgorod through trade and securing local resources and protecting from bandits, etc. etc. Perhaps I can (though badly) have a child mid-adventure with a woman and barely have time to raise my poor children and when I have to retire (or die)... Well, I should have thought that through because my "heir" is quite a bit disadvantaged because his mom was really negligent and prone to violence! Therefore minus 5 points to the total! Or conversely I married a really good woman and she managed to maintain the point total in spite of my chronic abcense.

Or I simply hold off till around 30 to "settle down".

I think there's a lot of fun to be had in attempting to play through generations of a family. Time could pass based on how long it would take to walk or ride a horse from point A to point B and do various things. And through the threat of finite time (and dying before having children!) I, the player, could have that incentive to REALLY be considerate of my actions and invest in my young (because I'll be playing as one of them! Probably even form a party by default with my siblings!).

I think there's a lot here that could be implemented into a truly unique table-top game. Especially if you choose to invest in the creation of stats and metrics for deciding good husbands/wives besides the main stats. Heck this would make for a good incentive for a marriage system too! Namely stats to measure the quality of women (speaking as a man for now) and perhaps how much several metrics she is and how that can be calculated to predict what kind of mother she'd be--as well as how hard/easy she'd be to earn! For example: if she's higher point-total than me then naturally I'll need to convince her why to marry down. Perhaps--as a sketch--her preferences could be measured relative to herself.

1: Agreeableness. 2: Empathy. 3: Kindness. 4: Beauty. 5: Discipline. Ranging from 1-10 with 5 being "mellow" for each, each character could have stats in these (without point total restrictions) that affects their personality preferences and behavior. Agreeableness is both how inclined to speak up and be straight forward but also tendency to be too abrasive and rebellious (when low) versus how likely they are to speak softly and negotiate but also hush up and be cowardly (like conform or abuse authority) (when high). Empathy is rather self-explanatory: high empathy means they can feel for others and have an edge in CHA while low empathy is general a weakness but also makes the character more able to do immoral or morally challenging things. Kindness is essentially reciprocity: high kindness people are kind and likely to reciprocate what they're dealt while low-kindness tend to be rude and more likely to scam and abuse. Beauty is obvious. Amplifies all stats--especially charisma-based ones--when high and lowers all stats--especially charisma and agility based ones--when low. 5: Discipline is both deferral of gratification and patience with others. Affects/is affected by intelligence and charisma. 

Most of these 5 stats have a negative effect even when high. Like high Agreeableness is good for managing people but bad at leading them or fighting them and possibly an indicator of someone who might abuse their authority (or be two-faced) while low agreeableness is more "honest" but can also be more self-destructive. Therefore 10 and 1 are not necessarily good numbers here. Empathy is less drastic but similarly not so easy to find an "ideal" number for beyond compatibility. Kindness is mostly good since I am trying to infer a sense of obligation and willingness to repay debts but naturally a hinderance to bad people (perhaps "Conscience" would be a better label?). Beauty and Discipline though are one-way. Higher is better.Except in compatibility (like a lazy man might not like a disciplined woman and an ugly woman might dislike pretty women but like handsome men).

Hypothetically people will seek like-for-like with some not. Like a high-agreeableness woman might prefer low-agreeableness in men but a man might want a low-agreeableness woman like himself. So preference might not always correlate with held place on the metrics. Of course you could adjust the definition, naming, and all that but I think there should be something like this for finding spouses (unless you want to rely on the creative minds of the players to fill it but metrics help for dice rolls I'd assume and childhood might involve a lot of that especially when the P.C. isn't around). 

[DavidFoxfire]

On Eladrin being Russians or Germans?

Well, if I don’t give a direct semblance of a real-world culture, maybe I can get away with it.  I hope I can modify a Tolkien-esque culture into something closer to what we’re talking about and be more believable.

On how (de-)evolution can be…accelerated.

At my current background, I have a mere 300 years pass by between the fall of the Lost Age (I marked the zero point at November 3, 2016.  When the Cubs won the World Series.  And the world was never sane since.  In fact, I numbered the years after the collapse with W. R., as in “Wrigley Reckoning.”  For the record, I’m hardcore Cardinals Nation.) and the start of the campaign setting.  I chose this very short length of time—little more than how long America existed—for shock value:  I wanted to show how far and how quickly Civilization would crumble if we allow ourselves to, as Stefan would say, give up using “The Argument.”  From what we have in the here and now, back to Middle Ages territories, with no memories of what they have lost, in little more than three centuries.  To fall so goddamned far, so goddamned quickly.  That would shock just about everyone here, and I want to keep that.

But this raises a problem that I needed to address when I was building the timeline.  Three Centuries is too short for a world to naturally regress to a Medieval setting, and too short to turn a human into an orc using the Evolutionary process.  No argument with me there.  Something needed to be added to accelerate the change, and I thought about an answer that solved another problem:  “How can I set up something like the Forgotten Realms’ Weave of Magic into the Real World, so that you can get spells to work?”

My answer—and your mileage is allowed to differ on this—became part of the name of the campaign setting:  Aether.  Here’s where I make a hard-left-hand turn into phlebotinum-like territories of logic and reasoning.

When the Material Plane—Earth—gets connected to the Fey World—the twinned Feywild in the campaign setting, the already-existing magical energies from the Fey World flowed into the Material Plane.  This magical Energy is called Aether, and it powers the fey’s and later on everyone else’s arcane spells.  The existence of this Fey Aether was able to kick start Earth’s own Aether (here’s where we go into psudo-science here, but at least I made some effort in explaining.) so that this world would have its own Weave.

Right now, I have the generation of this new Weave accelerate the evolution of much of the flora and fauna in the world.  This is an explanation why there are Anthro Races in the world (Yes, folks, you can play a fox person in Aethercoil,) but it can also explain the de-evolution into Orcs.

Some Humans flee the Eladrin ‘invasion’ and head into the woods, or mountains, or caves, or some other remote location.  They become more barbaric and cavemen due to their environment and they begin to adapt physically and psychology.  When the Aether kicks in and accelerates this process, it turned these already-brutish people into the Orcs you know.

Of course, that’s my original explanation, I’d never know if it flies unless I talk about it, right?

The recommendation of the 100-year space between “Fall of Modern Day” and “Arrival of Eladrin”

Having a century, at the minimum, between the two events, is doable and a lot more believable than what I just typed above. Especially when you put into account the secondary fall which would be the Universal State (Known in-campaign world as “The True Order.”)  Originally, I have the Eladrin arrive and take on the Universal State.  However, having the Universal State collapse under its own weight and split into warlords and warring states is more believable and expected.  It will also allow non-Eladrin communities where some humans banded together into a tribe to rebuild the best they could, as well as the above orcs.

Besides, an alien race of beings one-rounding a global government seems a bit too far-fetched, no?  (I was thinking it was too out there even as I was writing it, but I haven’t had an alternative until we have this thread.  Another reason why I believe joining here is a good thing.  Sidebar:  Why am I imagining Stefan going “Using ‘The Argument’ for Fiction Writing?  What the fuck?” over this?)

Because of this, I’m going to adjust the timeline to include this 100-year period.  I might need to add a century to the timeline, but it’s doable.

About the kids who go into the Eladrin Gardens

The kids who go into PTSD-influenced fight responses will no doubt end up with the adults who flee the Eladrin, some into these warring states or even ultimately becoming orcs.  The ones who are more explorative and curious, some of the traits that Eladrin would call “The Light,” that is, the capacity to hope, think, reason, create…stuff that Stefan would encourage.

A child who still has “The Light” would actually approach an Eladrin and try to be friendly.  Especially after realizing that they’re not out to kill them.  These are the ones, of all ages including Adults, whom the Eladrin would take in.

Moving the Eladrin City from France to London

This is when I’m grateful I’m having this discussion now rather than after I have the campaign setting and a couple fiction novels published.  It’s much easier to move Eladrin Civilizations around now.

I know of some geographic locations that are remote enough to place a fey-based Garden.  Two of them immediately come to mind:  England, which I renamed “The Island Kingdoms” and Crimera, between Ukraine and Russia.  You might have some other ideas, but I think the best place would be for them to take London for themselves, with Buckingham Palace replacing the Cathedral of Notre Dame as their Ghaele Court.  To be honest, I only chose Paris because it’s a central location, in the middle of the continent.  If I still have a soft spot for Paris, I can always use it for another purpose.

This will definitely go into the next issue of my brainstorming periodical, Æthercoil Magazine.  Issue 6 is way overdue.

About Split; Novgorod; and Odesa

Now that we’ve assumed that there would be humans who split out from the fallen dystopia to rebuild their societies the best they could, it would come to reason that designing some of these warring states is in order.  For now, I’ll start with the three societies you mentioned, and develop these three kingdoms from there.  (At this point, even the names of these kingdoms are up to debate.)

I’ll start with Novgorod near the Baltic Sea (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania, and  as a group of city-states with Boyar citizens electing Dukes that form a council.  An Archduke will serve for the Civil and Martial Authority, and have his powers and responsibilities run by a charter.  In all other traits, they’re a feudal republic.

Right now, I have Italy be already occupied by another faction, “The Council of the Eight.”  These are run by Bahamut (The platinum dragon of RPG fame) overseeing Eight Elder Dragons, one for each of the eight main Divine Domains as listed in 5^th Edition’s Rulebooks.  At now, they have settled into Rome, when they’re not in their prospective lairs, to combine their efforts for their own common ends.  While the Eladrin are concerned with the people in this realm, the Dragons are more interested in the realm itself.  Some of these dragons also take the place of various RPG deities—some of them even combine several deities from other campaign settings—to grant divine powers for Clerics and Paladins.  While the Eladrin would be a patron for a Cleric, more often then not, whoever a cleric prays to would no doubt be a traditional RPG deity incarnation as a dragon.

So, for now Italy is out, I need to move Split, the more curious and entrepreneurial kingdom, I’m thinking that they would be in the countries east of Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal. These lands are already well influenced by churches, or at least traditionally so, so it could come to no surprise that the survivors would find these abandoned churches and cathedrals, re-inhabit them, and use them to rebuild their society.

Odesa would take up most of what was once the Soviet Bloc, with the references to historical Russia (such as your mention of the Cossacks,) but with the main difference being a belief in human rights along with their militaristic organization.

With this, I can see parts of the Europan Coast gel a bit more:  The Island Kingdoms are directly controlled by the Eladrin, and it’s clear that this is all the land they needed.  In the Norselands (around the Baltic Sea) is what Novgorod will become, France and Spain will become what Split will turn into, and Eastern Europe will be Odesa.  Italy will be the Dragon Meeting place for the Council of the Eight.

With this ballpark division, I can work on some maps for that upcoming Æthercoil Magazine #6

About your game idea and your campaign ideas

If you don’t mind, I’d like to shelve these interesting ideas for a later time.  They’re very interesting, of course, and I’ll get back to it, but for now, the need to develop these Eurpoan Kingdoms take precedence in my mind.