Consigning God to the Dustbin

[MahtiSonni]

15 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Oh, you're one of those Christians, are you?

Yeah, I'm one of those Christian Christians.

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God says jump off a cliff or eat a bag of nails, your choice.

Considering the fact your dichotomy happens to be a false one, that's more than a bit thick from a guy who just assumed I was a troll.  Apparently it was just a projection on your part.  When you acknowledge this and manage to honestly ask yourself why, you might gain +1 WIS.

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Your God will not give me what I want after I die, because I would choose annihilation, not being tortured for eternity.

If you lived virtuously you wouldn't find existence such a burden.

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Why do you want to worship a God who wants to hurt people?

How so?

[Donnadogsoth]

12 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

Yeah, I'm one of those Christian Christians.

Considering the fact your dichotomy happens to be a false one, that's more than a bit thick from a guy who just assumed I was a troll.  Apparently it was just a projection on your part.  When you acknowledge this and manage to honestly ask yourself why, you might gain +1 WIS.

If you lived virtuously you wouldn't find existence such a burden.

How so?

What happens to the Medieval Chinese, Mahti?  What happens to the people who never heard of Christ?

[RichardY]

16 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

Despite having a question mark in the end of that sentence it lacks an understandable question.

My point is to me, Christ is about compassion, if not compassion then what?

[MahtiSonni]

10 hours ago, RichardY said:

My point is to me, Christ is about compassion, if not compassion then what?

Your conception of what Christianity is happens to be wrong.  Does Christ violently chasing off the publicans from the temple, dismissing the Samaritan woman asking for help, or calling the Pharisees "sons of vipers" sound particularly compassionate to you?  There are several situations where Christians are, so to speak, required to be dicks.

Christianity is about following God.  It is about the truth, the way and the life.  It is about fulfilling the Greatest Commandment.

[MahtiSonni]

16 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said:

What happens to the Medieval Chinese, Mahti?  What happens to the people who never heard of Christ?

Yeah, what happens to Abraham?  Or king David?  What do you think?  

I believe the correct answer was provided by Vox Day earlier this year: Not everyone who walks the hard and narrow path of truth is, or will become, a Christian, but it is a path that eventually leads to Jesus Christ all the same.

Vox mucho wise.

[Donnadogsoth]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:34 AM, MahtiSonni said:

Yeah, what happens to Abraham?  Or king David?  What do you think?  

I believe the correct answer was provided by Vox Day earlier this year: Not everyone who walks the hard and narrow path of truth is, or will become, a Christian, but it is a path that eventually leads to Jesus Christ all the same.

Vox mucho wise.

If people invincibly ignorant of Christ can be saved anyway, why spread the Gospel?

[RichardY]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:37 AM, MahtiSonni said:

Your conception of what Christianity is happens to be wrong.  Does Christ violently chasing off the publicans from the temple, dismissing the Samaritan woman asking for help, or calling the Pharisees "sons of vipers" sound particularly compassionate to you?  There are several situations where Christians are, so to speak, required to be dicks.

Christianity is about following God.  It is about the truth, the way and the life.  It is about fulfilling the Greatest Commandment.

sound particularly compassionate to you? Yes it does. Maybe not to the Pharisees or Samaritan directly, but to those who lives were destroyed by them.

Then Judaism and the Old Testament would be sufficient.

[MahtiSonni]

14 hours ago, RichardY said:

sound particularly compassionate to you? Yes it does. Maybe not to the Pharisees or Samaritan directly, but to those who lives were destroyed by them.

Then Judaism and the Old Testament would be sufficient.

I'm having trouble understanding whose life the Samaritan woman asking for help was destroying, in your opinion, to make comparing her to a dog somehow compassionate.

Is this another of those cases where words have no real meaning at all and anything can mean anything? To me, Christ's answer to her was about as far from compassionate as it gets.

[MahtiSonni]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:18 PM, Donnadogsoth said:

If people invincibly ignorant of Christ can be saved anyway, why spread the Gospel?

Obviously, because we are commanded to, and, because people being natural saints is pretty damn rare and perhaps it would be a good idea to save as many as we can.

[RichardY]

4 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

I'm having trouble understanding whose life the Samaritan woman asking for help was destroying, in your opinion, to make comparing her to a dog somehow compassionate.

Is this another of those cases where words have no real meaning at all and anything can mean anything? To me, Christ's answer to her was about as far from compassionate as it gets.

Well in the case of the Canaanite woman, resources are fininte. By helping the woman's daughter, which he did. Not sure how much more compassionate you can be, to save another's child. Same issue with the pathological altruism of the West. By trying to help everyone that does not necessarily share your values, can end up capsizing the lifeboat. Opportunity cost, resources spent on foreigners are not spent on natives.

Matthew 15 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I think compassion can also be putting animals and by logical further extension people down. ala "Of mice and men".

His answer to her meant everything, what he said meant nothing.

[Donnadogsoth]

5 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

Obviously, because we are commanded to, and, because people being natural saints is pretty damn rare and perhaps it would be a good idea to save as many as we can.

Sounds pretty racist against all those peoples who lived and died never having had a chance to be saved while being less than a natural saint.

Why is it good to save as many as we can?  Everyone who ends up in Hell deserves it, so, what difference does it make if we save more people?  Everyone just gets what they deserve.

[MahtiSonni]

17 hours ago, RichardY said:

Well in the case of the Canaanite woman, resources are fininte. By helping the woman's daughter, which he did. Not sure how much more compassionate you can be, to save another's child.

I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous or truly can't understand what was asked of you.  When you're being asked what was compassionate about first entirely ignoring, then comparing, someone who asks for help, a dog, saying what He did after that does not answer the question.

Thanks for the correction, though.  I got dem furriner wimin mixed up.

[MahtiSonni]

17 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Sounds pretty racist against all those peoples who lived and died never having had a chance to be saved while being less than a natural saint.

Why is it good to save as many as we can?  Everyone who ends up in Hell deserves it, so, what difference does it make if we save more people?  Everyone just gets what they deserve.

To be fair, it's not like there were a generous supply of them in any other population either.  Try your "racism" schtick with someone who cares about magic words.

To do so serves the truth, the way and the life.  In more ways than one.  If all went to hell who deserve it, the population of heaven would probably be low indeed, and that is a place humans were never even supposed to go.

[Donnadogsoth]

6 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

To be fair, it's not like there were a generous supply of them in any other population either.  Try your "racism" schtick with someone who cares about magic words.

To do so serves the truth, the way and the life.  In more ways than one.  If all went to hell who deserve it, the population of heaven would probably be low indeed, and that is a place humans were never even supposed to go.

I'm happy you're invulnerable to the r-word.  We share something in common, at least.

Why does God want to burn my atheist friends?  That's a problem for me.  They're invincibly ignorant of God and they're not natural saints, so according to you they're going to burn.  Why should I worship a God that wants to burn my atheist friends?  Fear of Hell?  The bribe of Heaven?

[MahtiSonni]

13 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Why does God want to burn my atheist friends?  That's a problem for me.

Do you think God offered himself on the cross because he wants to burn people?  Your premises are wrong here, which understandably lead to a problem for you.

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 They're invincibly ignorant of God and they're not natural saints, so according to you they're going to burn.

I don't know what "invincibly ignorant" means.  Is "too proud" a more accurate translation to language we can both understand?  Usually ignorance isn't that hard to gain victory against provided one does not take pride in their ignorance.

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  Why should I worship a God that wants to burn my atheist friends?  Fear of Hell?  The bribe of Heaven?

As they say, fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.  The thing they seldom tell is that said fear is hardly the whole picture.  Do your friends have any redeeming virtues to counter their egomania?

[Donnadogsoth]

11 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

Do you think God offered himself on the cross because he wants to burn people?  Your premises are wrong here, which understandably lead to a problem for you.

I don't know what "invincibly ignorant" means.  Is "too proud" a more accurate translation to language we can both understand?  Usually ignorance isn't that hard to gain victory against provided one does not take pride in their ignorance.

As they say, fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.  The thing they seldom tell is that said fear is hardly the whole picture.  Do your friends have any redeeming virtues to counter their egomania?

1. God set up the system of things knowing full well most people would burn.  Saying he doesn't want anyone to burn is crocodile tears.

2. Invincibly ignorant means impossible to convert.  In the old days it referred to having too little information, as a Medieval Chinaman, or a mental retardate, or an unbaptised infant.  In the new days it refers to people utterly confused by the welter of competing truth claims.  As one acquaintance put it, "I have no iota of understanding why anyone would believe in religion."  He burns too.  I might have met four people in my entire life I could say really believe in Christ and really walk the talk, and one of them was insane (wouldn't even defend his family in a fight), and the others I'm not sure of either.  Everyone else I know burns.

3. "Hell of a thing to live your life in fear, isn't it?"  My friends are normal people.  Family men and women, some are NGO members, they're of good cheer, helpful, normal people.  They don't know theology and generally "wing it" when it comes to the bigger questions in life.  They aren't saints, natural or otherwise.  They will never be converted to any religion.  They might, like my father, on their deathbed wonder if they should pray, and then be bemused by the options:  Thor, Zeus, Brahman, Odin, Buddha, Mazda, Mumbo-Jumbo . . . and say ah, to hell with it, lets just crack a joke and make the people around me smile .  They're normal people living normal lives.  Nothing will penetrate their ignorance of God.  They're not proud about it, they're not egomaniacs, they're not anti-theists, they're not Satan worshippers, they've done nothing more or less worse in their lives than any other normal, non-malevolent people, but they're confused and tired by the whole thing and simply made their peace with the life they find themselves living.

[MahtiSonni]

8 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said:

1. God set up the system of things knowing full well most people would burn. 

Do you have any evidence to support that?

[Donnadogsoth]

1 hour ago, MahtiSonni said:

Do you have any evidence to support that?

Are you telling me God's creation of the universe was a craps game?  Are you telling me that, prior to rolling the dice on this universe that he didn't know what would happen, he didn't already have in mind a standard by which he would judge the creatures he would create?

[RichardY]

Drifted so far from the original point. How does someone eradicate the idea of God. I suppose if things are going well doesn't really matter.

In the absence of things going well. Why not some form of Iconoclasm taken further. Eradicate any mention of God, and all icons depicting religious figures. How would someone psychologically develop if they never even heard the idea or excuse of God?

[Donnadogsoth]

19 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Drifted so far from the original point. How does someone eradicate the idea of God. I suppose if things are going well doesn't really matter.

In the absence of things going well. Why not some form of Iconoclasm taken further. Eradicate any mention of God, and all icons depicting religious figures. How would someone psychologically develop if they never even heard the idea or excuse of God?

God's going to burn you too, Richard.

[RichardY]

27 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said:

God's going to burn you too, Richard.

 

As long as I have my mind, I'm not too fussed, could get used to it. In some ways it's better than Oblivion, so many galaxies that'll I'll never get/ be able to visit. Unless science develops consciousness or Ego preservation, through cloning and stem cells, then might be in for a chance.

[RichardY]

Although if it is developed, wonder how likely it would be for us(or at least myself) peasants to get access to such technology. 

[Donnadogsoth]

31 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Although if it is developed, wonder how likely it would be for us(or at least myself) peasants to get access to such technology. 

I humbly suggest you're underestimating the nature of Hell.  Someone famous once said that Hell is to fire, as fire is to a picture of fire . . . You won't be using your mind for much under those conditions other than thinking up new ways to scream.

[RichardY]

1 minute ago, Donnadogsoth said:

I humbly suggest you're underestimating the nature of Hell.  Someone famous once said that Hell is to fire, as fire is to a picture of fire . . . You won't be using your mind for much under those conditions other than thinking up new ways to scream.

Do I at least get company? "In space no one can eat icecream."

Pretty pointless then.

[MahtiSonni]

22 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Are you telling me God's creation of the universe was a craps game?

An actual answer to my question would have been "no, I don't".

No, as free moral action is hardly random.  Are you aware of the fact that no matter how many times your assertions and assumptions are shown to be false, the only thing you're thinking about is "how I can attack now"?  No information gets through or has you questioning anything about your prejudices.

It appears you are one of those of whom Aristotle said cannot be instructed - a living testament to what your "invincibly ignorant" means.  Oh well.  At least I got something out of this.

[MahtiSonni]

15 hours ago, RichardY said:

Drifted so far from the original point. How does someone eradicate the idea of God.

The left has been trying that for a couple of centuries now.  Their main weapons are deceit, statism and defecating over everything reminding them of actual culture.  They paint everything over with lies and ugliness, promoting nihilism, carnality and consumerism.

Are you sure you want to be on that team?

 

[Donnadogsoth]

7 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

An actual answer to my question would have been "no, I don't".

No, as free moral action is hardly random.  Are you aware of the fact that no matter how many times your assertions and assumptions are shown to be false, the only thing you're thinking about is "how I can attack now"?  No information gets through or has you questioning anything about your prejudices.

It appears you are one of those of whom Aristotle said cannot be instructed.  Oh well.

Are you motivated by fear of Hell or the bribe of Heaven to ignore the fact God wants to burn people?  Does it not matter to you because they're my friends that are going to burn and not your friends?  All your friends are going to Heaven?  Will you enjoy watching us burn while you're in Heaven (maybe on tv?)  Why are you being so difficult? Is it hard for you to be honest about your motivations?

[MahtiSonni]

14 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Are you motivated by fear of Hell or the bribe of Heaven to ignore the fact God wants to burn people?  Does it not matter to you because they're my friends that are going to burn and not your friends?  All your friends are going to Heaven?  Will you enjoy watching us burn while you're in Heaven (maybe on tv?)  Why are you being so difficult? Is it hard for you to be honest about your motivations?

You misunderstood what I said above.  I am not interested in repeating answers to the same accusations masquerading as questions over and over.

We're done here.

[Donnadogsoth]

27 minutes ago, MahtiSonni said:

You misunderstood what I said above.  I am not interested in repeating answers to the same accusations masquerading as questions over and over.

We're done here.

Have fun watching me and my friends burn.

[MahtiSonni]

39 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said:

Have fun watching me and my friends burn.

I guess I shall. If you ever want to rethink your commitment to self-immolation by pride, you know what to do.

[Donnadogsoth]

3 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

I guess I shall. If you ever want to rethink your commitment to self-immolation by pride, you know what to do.

See, you're just a liar.  My friends are not proud.  They just see no reason to adhere to any religion, yours or anyone else's.  And, they're not natural saints, either.  So, your God is going to burn them and you'll be whacking off in Heaven to the images and sounds (and smells?) of them being tortured on Hell Television.  Well, at least we will have the moral satisfaction of knowing we don't deserve to "self-immolate"--again, another lie:  God is doing the burning, God set up the game, God set up the punishments, we did not choose anything except to live our lives and die at the end.

[MahtiSonni]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:01 PM, Donnadogsoth said:

See, you're just a liar.

I do see that your assertions lacking any and all evidence are not about to cease.  Wonder of wonders!

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My friends are not proud.

Having you as a friend they have little reason to be.  Then again, pride is never justified.  It is the most antisocial trait of them all.

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They just see no reason to adhere to any religion, yours or anyone else's.

It would be faster to just say that they won't see reason.  As you stated, they're invincibly ignorant, like you.

Look, it's patently obvious that you're oblivious to any and all information, which leads to the conclusion that your hatred of God is some form of daddy issue that you really need to sort out.  It's not healthy having that sort of bitterness that you pretend is directed at what you don't even believe exists.  Find out the real culprit, get angry at it, then a closure, and through that, some harmony of mind and eventual sanity.  You've got a long way to go, as currently you're little more than a personified grudge looking for a proxy target to attack as you're too afraid to take on the real one.

[Donnadogsoth]

And, of course, God burns invincibly ignorant people, such as the 95% of the world's historical population who never heard of him and aren't natural saints, because that's the kinda guy he is.

But, that's a very interesting psychoanalysis of me, thank you.  The problem is, my father isn't threatening to burn me alive.  I have a real emotional response to people threatening to burn me alive, and threatening to burn my invincibly ignorant friends alive, too.  Though, I suppose my friends are dispensable.  If I were in Heaven and they were in Hell, too bad for them I guess.  I'll send them a postcard, "Wish you were here!"  I guess they'd send me one too, saying the same thing!