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> I thought I checked that out on the site and didn't see a lot of what is presented by FDR taken into account, but I will check it out more because I did only glance for a few minutes. You're right, it looks like those high level tabs on that page just outline the arguments but don't actually refute them, but then they have blog posts that try to deal with them (see my last reply), so I'll email them and tell them that they're organization is very confusing > The claims about the factors that make multiculturalism not so great at all are all together here: I'll check that out next week, thanks > And upon thinking about it, I think yes, it is a fair characterization to say that current immigration discussions tend not to take into account the effect on the native population, especially whites and east asians, who tend to pay the most taxes, be the most free market oriented, commit the least crime, have higher IQs, and lower welfare usage rates. I don't see how they benefit on the whole from multiculturalism, though there is the argument some corporations selectively benefit from the cheap labor. The Caplan video above covers some of that, but I certainly see some of the points. It's been an interesting discussion, thanks. This is really why I want two experts like Stef and Caplan to debate because it seems to me that these two people both have reasonable perspectives and evidence and I'd really like to see that hashed out more

Hey Matthew, I don't have much time to respond right now, so just a few thoughts: First, I don't know much about this subject except for watching a few videos by Stef and Caplan and rummaging around OpenBorders.info a bit. I started this topic to propose a debate between Stef and Caplan and not to debate it myself, because I quite simply haven't researched it much. Second, and again I haven't researched it much, so this is just one perspective and I haven't checked all his sources or statements, but here's a bit of an older video by Caplan making some points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYk00Ufiqb4&t=4m49s Related to your points, he discusses culture, voting, welfare, and crime (in the Q&A - surprisingly saying immigrants have lower crimes rates. See also http://openborders.info/blog/moral-imperative-open-borders-trumps-pun-intended-immigrant-crime-rates/), amongst other things. I think he also goes well beyond just purely theoretical grounds, arguing for practical alternatives like immigration surtaxes, tests, etc. Your responses mentions other libertarians who deny more practical concerns, but I don't think Caplan nor I fall into that, so I don't know how that's relevant in this discussion. I don't see why low IQ is inherently a problem. If an immigrant with a low IQ takes a job no one else wants right now and has a net positive effect, then their IQ seems like an irrelevant variable. I agree GDP is imperfect, but if one of the main questions is whether or not immigration has a net positive or negative effects, then we'll need some other way to measure that to decide. Are there alternative measurements? I certainly understand your perspective better now and at no point have you offended me, so your outrage, given your premises, makes total sense. I'll check out those statistics once they're up when I find some time.

Hey Matthew, I'm certainly no expert on this topic but I'll do my best to respond. Mostly I'm going to be asking questions to help clarify... > People who don't realize (or don't care) that their arguments are only applied to white people by world leaders don't deserve a platform. Do you mean that the arguments in favor of open borders forget to take into account the effects of non-white people? > The problem with open borders for countries like America and Germany are that they are accepting many more migrants than other countries, and are becoming filled with low IQ, crime bearing, rapist populations. Do you have any statistics on these three dimensions of IQ, crime, and rape by immigrants? The OpenBorders site has some pages on crime, terrorism, etc. under the "Harms to Immigrant-Receiving Countries" tab > If the debate is that countries like America and Germany specifically are better off for accepting migrants who are non white and multicultural The proposed debate (at least for me, they might decide something else if they ever do it) would be about Caplan's proposal to open all borders as much as possible wherever possible and the pros and cons. > For god's sake, we just had a person who had their friend killed on the show. Of course that's terrible. > "Worldwide open borders so we can double GDP" What world do you have to be living in to make such an impractical argument as this??? As far as I understand the basic argument, history has shown, and economic theory proposes, that while there are obviously negatives to the free flow of people, the net effect is positive, and in the case of immigration, extremely positive.

I emailed Dr. Caplan just to see if he was interested and he said yes. I'll forward his email to operations at FDR. Matt, I'm not sure but Dr. Caplan helped co-start a new website which deals with a lot of objections: http://openborders.info/ There's a start on your questions here: http://openborders.info/welfare-objection/

Hi there. Stef interviewed Bryan Caplan (an anarchist/voluntaryist economist at GMU) back in 2012 on his book on voting (I couldn't find the podcast number because caplan and other terms didn't come up with anything on fdrpodcasts, but the youtube video ID is hsJhpzyJox8). Dr. Caplan has been very active on immigration and argues for completely open borders (primarily to double world GDP, and any potentially negative effects would be drowned out by that). I think it would be fascinating for Stef to chat with Dr. Caplan on immigration issues. Thanks

Hey y'all, I don't log in to this board often (btw, is there a way to get an RSS feed of posts?), but just wanted to shout out a few things: 1) I'm in San Diego and if anyone lives near me, send me a private message 2) I'm working on a startup idea that's about creating an information marketplace. I'm a programmer by day and I'm building the site in Scala and JQuery Mobile. If anyone is interested in more details and potentially working together, send me a private message. The idea is infused with the philosophy of voluntarism. Ciao

Hey, I don't usually come to the FDR boards, but I decided to drop by and post that I'm in San Diego and always looking to meet like minded people. I did a search first and found this post. So, howdy! Reina, send me a private message and maybe we can start an FDR community here!