Forknight

People don't seem to be making a distinction between killing something to eat it, and killing something for promotional purposes but then eating it afterward. Great but that wasn't what I was asking. Would it be okay for me to livestream beating a dog to death with a rock to generate sensationalism around my upcoming album, as long as I ate it afterward?

The legality of animal cruelty is irrelevant. The point I was trying to make was that I think killing something as a promotional vehicle seems unnecessarily cruel and therefore wrong. Not the physical act of killing the rabbit, because if I had a problem with that I could never justify eating meat, but the intention and spirit in which it was done. Then there's the strange contradiction of efficiency where he was much more brutal than most industrial farms in how he killed it. If you're going to demonstrate the brutality of rabbit slaughter standards to make a point about how it should be more humane in the industrial farms, you should at least be able to show a technique more efficient than the people you're complaining about. To emphasize my point using his logic, replace rabbit with a dog / cat. Would it be perfectly acceptable to quickly bash in the brains of a dog or cat or your favorite cuddly household pet with a giant hammer to promote your personal discussion about animal abuse, as long as you bbq'd and ate the dog or cat afterward?

In what sense is it valid to start an earnest discussion about animal welfare by audio streaming the clubbing of a rabbit with a bike pump to boost your show? That seems rather... counterproductive.

True but he wasn't doing it just to eat the rabbit. It would be one thing if he were filming a documentary on how to properly slaughter a rabbit, or if he were to film the process of rabbits being actually slaughtered in a factory. The latter would detract from the sensationalism he's trying to generate though, because they actually have machines in most of the slaughterhouses that do this very quickly and in about as humane a way as possible. I just think it's wrong to kill a rabbit to boost your radio show, and am disgusted by the ridiculousness of the claim that it was done in the name of animal welfare.

Ibogaine is another that's been touted to help with addiction problems. I remain skeptical personally. There are other ways to get clean without having to terrify yourself half to death. It seems to work on the principle that "I'm going to make you trip so hard and that you'll never want to touch drugs again." That said, I know people who have tried it for heroin addiction that ended up relapsing.

http://news.sky.com/story/1490826/radio-boss-defends-killing-rabbit-live-on-air So... this happened. Apparently this guy beat a rabbit to death with a bicycle pump live on the air for the purpose of creating a dialog about why we see some animals, mainly the ones we tend to eat, differently than others. They basically came out and said that they anticipated outrage, which means that they aired the story to get listeners, which means that they beat a rabbit to death so that more people would know about their show. Not for nutritional value, not because it was sick and had to be put down, but for fucking ratings. This guy wanted to make a point about animal welfare "for all animals" so he kills an animal to make his point. That is profoundly fucked up logic to me. Is this an immoral act? I know that clubbing is probably the most humane way to kill a rabbit, but that seems to me to be only necessary when you're eating the things. I also know that we don't apply moral rules to animals because they cannot abide them. It just seems like so wrong of a thing to do that I can't even think of a valid argument for why this approach should be the one taken above all other potential ways of stimulating a conversation. This is all putting aside the fact that the term "discussion" means basically the opposite of beating something to death. Take an example of chicks. We all know what happens to them on industrial farms thanks to that stomach churning gif of them being fed into a shredder. That part is gross, and yes I understand that there's a reason why they do that, but it doesn't feel as outright egregious as if they created a live-feed on their website showing a 24-7 stream of chicks being shoved into the shredder in order to generate more traffic. When you take it to the level of trying to claim that this is a website dedicated to the welfare of all animals, then you cross over into the bizarro realm that is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I have to come here to get smarter people than myself to explain it to me. Quick disclaimer: I'm not an animal rights activist. I eat meat like it's going to be outlawed any minute. I do get that industrial farms can be inhospitable places for the animals that live there and I am sympathetic to the argument that we should treat our meat more humanely prior to slaughter inasmuch as is possible.

Wasn't Jan Irvin the one who broke the story that the Psychedelic Revolution of the 60's began as MKUltra Subproject 58 in 1957? It seems strange to me that, given that information, he might imply they're a positive in any context. I wonder about the critical thinking bit as well. It seems to me that in order to not have a bad trip, you have to mostly abandon critical thinking because your thoughts don't tend to line up in a way that satisfies any reasonable standard of rationality. This is why after 5 hours of intensely introspective "searching" all I end up getting onto my notepad of everlasting hallucinogenic wisdom are the words "clothes scare."

I agree quite a lot with Kevin, so I'll try to avoid a duplication of effort. I'd like to start out by saying that I used these substances extensively throughout my youth. LSD, Psylocin, MDMA, and many of Shulgin's PiHKAL / TiHKAL research chemicals. It certainly seemed like it was beneficial at the time, but now I think it's probably not the most productive route for attaining the self-knowledge that is really going to help you improve your life. In my experience, these substances work by confusing the brain so profoundly and flooding it with an unusually high amount of sense data that is then distorted by foreign chemicals that cause your synapses to misfire. There is a well-known feeling of "spiritual transcendence" that I think comes from a combination of simultaneous suppression and hyperactivity of certain areas of the brain. I've found that since I've embraced atheism and can explain all of these feelings in a rational manner even while hallucinating, it really just makes me feel "insane" for lack of a better word. I tried a dose of Psylocin about 6 months ago for the first time in years out of curiosity and it reminded me of why I gave up on these substances. I felt the sense of "spiritual oneness" but it annoyed me because I knew it was just my brain reacting to these chemicals and acting on the parts of my brain that caused me to feel like I was having a "spiritual experience." This made the experience frustrating, stressful, and tiring for me and I just wanted it to end already. You mentioned "letting your fears go" which is the mantra for beginners. I've considered this carefully over the years and I don't think it's true or useful. I think it's more about letting go of any rational objections and riding the wave of insanity until it finally stops and you can regain your ability to think straight. The other alternative is to try to cling to rationality while your brain is operating in an altered state, which anyone who has tried to do knows is very frustrating because your brain is constantly being bombarded with random data. As Kevin basically stated, I would be very careful about equating taking a recreational drug with healing of any type because we're still learning about the brain and we simply don't know. I feel like all that is happening is that you're replacing a physically traumatic experience of being in a fire, with a potentially more immersive mentally traumatic experience that is more recent. Sort of like breaking a finger and then cutting off your toe to redirect the pain to your foot. Then again, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I could be wrong here as I'm just speaking about my own experience. We need YEARS of studies and then meta-analysis of those studies before we can even begin to talk about this stuff empirically. I've had extremely bad trips before that had me curled in a corner vomiting, thinking I was dying, wishing it would just end already with another 5-6 hours on the clock. Bad trips are very real and I know that for a fact because I've experienced them more than once. They still remain highly unpleasant memories to this day, so time didn't seem to make a difference. I'd like to see whatever research you're using to support this argument. This is a good point. My only objection would be that dream analysis doesn't occur while you are dreaming, it occurs after the fact. Supposing for a second that a person could have the same experience in a dream that they had while hallucinating, how would the intoxicating effects of the drug cause you to describe the experience in a way that might cause your therapist to react differently? I think the dream analysis path would probably yield a more accurate result personally, but I could be wrong. Anecdotal, as most of this post is, but I know a woman who went down to one of the South American therapeutic ayahuasca camps. She had revealed to me that she was sexually abused as a child and was hoping that the ayahuasca would help her get over residual feelings she had. She went and took a crash course where they drink it every day for more than a week. They had Shamans guiding her and everything and yet, I don't think it really was a positive experience for her despite what she claims. If anything, it gave her a false sense of security that she had overcome something that she stopped looking at self-improvement altogether and declared herself "healed" by this magical plant from the rain forest. My experience of her is quite different though. She is clearly a fractured and confused human being underneath it all. In the years since, she has had her children taken away from her because she abused them, she abuses her boyfriend emotionally, and she clearly is still operating on pure survival instinct, rather than any sort of philosophical basis. I can't help but wonder how different she would be if she had sought therapy instead and actually followed the advice. Anyway, my verdict is that they aren't really useful for the purposes that people tend to think they're useful for. They really just seem to confuse the issue and make it more difficult to strike at effectively.

I don't have a plan yet, but I will formulate one. I'm still processing this since it just happened yesterday. I imagine it will have something to do with thinking more before I act but at this point in time I'm obviously not there yet.

Yes, I do see that it was really just as much about me as it was about seeing the children being treated that way. I fully acknowledge that there is a lot I still need to work on about myself and that my response to things I find unacceptable is one of them. I recently had a friend tell me that while we were having a disagreement he thought my body language indicated that I was about to start attacking him, even though I would never just attack someone for insulting me. I don't really get super angry very often but when I do it's almost as if I disassociate and I'm watching myself move automatically. I'd like to get to a point where that doesn't happen but I can see now that that is going to take some work.

I don't know if I would call it brave but thank you. It just sort of came out of me and I didn't have time to think. I really do wish I had approached the situation differently now that I think about it but I suppose it's a valuable lesson. I think I knew being rational to these people was probably going to inspire the same response, so I figured I would go for maximum impact but that's about all the thought I put into it before the words started coming. It's very tempting to try to put the spin of being a brave protector of children on it but I'm not sure that's totally honest. It seems to leave me with more questions about myself than answers that help children. Maybe somewhere tonight she's crying herself to sleep and tomorrow she'll wake up and stop being a shit mom but I doubt it.

I don't think it's a path to self-knowledge. As a person who does bjj, I do think it's obviously a great workout, it helps strengthen the body-mind connection, improve balance and reaction time. When your angry it can help blow off some steam through sheer exhaustion. It also lends itself to a sense of power and control, however illusory it may be, that people who have felt powerless in the past find very attractive. I think that, as well as the surrounding mythology, are the main reasons why so many people believe that it is a path to self-knowledge. Unfortunately, the types of self-knowledge you get from learning how to fight don't really apply to many other peaceful applications in life. You'll learn how far you can push yourself and how much punishment you'll take before you scream in pain and submit. You'll learn how to harm or neutralize another person in the way that is easiest for you, The real important stuff comes from hours of digging intensely within yourself in a safe place where you can be totally honest. I would not say that the gym is one of those place since people are there to learn technique, not listen to you talk about your problems. One valuable lesson you will learn though is that you are not the toughest. If you have any misguided beliefs about that whatsoever, they will be dispelled almost immediately when you first train with someone who has an idea what to do. Some people don't react well to the humbling, but they most likely are the type who shouldn't learn a hundred easy ways to cripple someone anyway, so it turns out to be a win that they don't end up coming back.

You're right. I wasn't diplomatic but I'm not sure what else I could have said. Perhaps you have some suggestions? I would like to avoid getting shot or fired because this sort of thing is unfortunately common in this city. Especially in the area around where I work. "how did you respond to your parents' absuve behaviour?" I would retreat into books and video games. I internalized everything until my mid 20s. When my daughter was born, I went through a long period where all the stuff I had sealed inside "rotted" and turned into a gigantic ball of rage that was too much to contain. I never hurt anyone thankfully, but I was very unstable during that time. That scared me so badly that I took a big step back and it took me a while to get my head straight. It's still there, but it just isn't constant anymore. The only time I feel it anymore is when something clearly violates my most deeply held beliefs, and then it all comes back like a hurricane. "Have they ever done anything similar that these women did?" Yes. I was shamed, neglected, beaten, berated, and ultimately given away to the state by the time I was 15.

I want to share something that happened to me today. I'd like the thoughts and feelings of this community on whether or not I did the right thing. It's all so jumbled up in my head that I can't make sense of it so some help would be greatly appreciated. As a little background, I should probably mention that I'm a big guy and I have rage issues that I've been trying to work through, with medium success. I was a mess through my late 20s but at 32 my life is finally getting better the more I align it with my principles. I find myself feeling less hopeless, empty, and filled with rage every day. I'm also a father and I'm proud to say I've never raised my voice in anger or spanked my daughter even once, despite being severely abused as a child. As I was walking up to my office building this morning, I heard a voice scream and a child cry, so I looked around but didn't see anything at first. As I'm walking along, these two women cut in front of me onto the sidewalk with two children in tow (one girl about 4 and one boy probably about 7). The woman dragging the boy along begrudgingly looks down and says to the boy "Stop dragging your feet like your worthless father." Then proceeds to start insulting the boys father and basically saying that this 7 year old boy is just like him. The 4 year old girl reaches back to scratch her butt and the woman dragging her along grabs her arms and says "Scratch your butt in the car" to which the ~4 year old replies "itchy itchy" and she says "I don't give a shit. Stop scratching your fucking ass NOW!" This was, of course, amidst a cloud of verbal insults and very forceful touching intended to force her to keep her hands at her sides. All I could think was that this woman probably did a poor job wiping the little girl after she went potty and it itches, like potty training children tend to have problems with. Now she's verbally and borderline physically abusing this child because of her own failures as a parent. Seeing this triggered a level of rage I don't think I've ever felt before. It was like through pure anger suddenly my senses were sharpened and my thought and intentions were as clear as the ringing of a bell. I simply said "Are you fucking kidding me? You people should be ashamed of yourselves treating children that way. They're CHILDREN! They don't know any better. What you are doing is fucking DISGUSTING!" At first they couldn't believe that I had the balls to say anything. I assume most parents either agree or just keep quiet so being directly confronted by a stranger was probably a shock. Then when their defenses recovered from the verbal torpedoing they received in front of their children they started SCREAMING like a drill sergeant about how "You don't even have children so what the fuck do you know?" I replied that I did, in fact, have a child and I could never even begin to fathom what it would take to be such a shitty parent. Then I repeated what she said to the boy back to her in a mocking tone and told her she was pathetic before simply walking away to the sounds of her screaming at the top of her lungs accusing me of... not paying child support? The one thing I feel bad about is that the kids are probably going to get it tonight because she probably blames them for her parental failures. At least they saw someone have the balls to stand up to his terrifying fucking scraggly toothed meth addict looking mother though. What do you think? I know that I felt like if I said nothing that it would be cowardice because, as I'm sure many of you within this community can empathize, the abuse of children being a moral abomination is one of my most closely held beliefs. Is it better to spare the child an extra two nights of severe potential abuse and swallow my words, or is it better to be ready to potentially die (I live in a well-armed state and we know how these situations can escalate) in order to stand up for what I believe in? I can't help but feel like the latter is the only clear answer.

I totally agree that most of us who are so tragically wounded never figure it out and end up perpetuating the insanity. I'm grateful not to be a part of that anymore. I wish I could type more but I'm having a really shitty day today. Despite that, I appreciate your empathy and am also glad that you turned your life around too.

For reasons probably best left for another post, I’ve always had an outright revulsion towards authority figures and was outwardly rebellious in just about every way I could be. In my early adolescence, I just used the concept of anarchy as a way to piss off my teachers and other authority figures. Admittedly, I had never read a single piece of anarchist literature at that point, but the idea of tearing down all of society as it existed, which was clearly the source of all authority, sounded pretty fantastic to me. I had no idea what the implications of that were, how to go about doing it, or what we should replace it with, but I always instinctually resonated with the overall idea of the destruction of the meme known as America. I knew, in my own way, that it was a dangerous form of lip service to the idea of freedom and I hated it. Over the years that followed, I became more erratic and uncaring, turning to drugs and booze to numb what I can only describe as an “empty rage.” I used people as if they were objects and tossed them aside, never to speak to them again. I gained a fair amount of notoriety in certain music circles that really only fuelled and encouraged my behavior to extremely destructive heights. This continued on for years throughout my late teens / early 20s. Eventually, the “empty rage” became unbearable and I reached out in desperation for someone and found what I thought I was looking for. This woman seemed to understand me and she filled my void more than anyone ever had. It’s sort of embarrassing to say, mostly because I feel so foolish now having fell for it, but she was into new age / occult mysticism and I bought into it hook, line, and sinker. I believed that we were reincarnated supernatural beings. She fed into that belief to the point where she was using it to manipulate me and I let it all happen. In my desperation to find some kind of meaningful connection, I continued to allow this person to manipulate me until I didn’t even know who I was anymore. I hated myself and was made to feel inferior at every turn. My already self-destructive attitude was only exacerbated by the inferiority I internalized. I began lying and flirting with other women for some positive attention and our relationship took a turn for the worst as I became more and more depressed. Then she got pregnant. I had read books and done classes, but nothing could prepare me for what came once my little girl was born. I remember carrying her over to my seat in the hospital and holding her in my hands while staring down at her sleepy little face. As I sat there, looking at this marvel of biological evolution that was by far my greatest creation, an idea tore its way through my mind with the brilliant explosive force of a million supernovas. I was overcome with awe at the fact that I had a unique life that was a part of me and would go on to have her own emotions and her own whole story; the weight of my past, previously ignored but now recontextualized in the light of empathy, also came crashing down. Every girl I had ever fucked and then never spoken to again, or otherwise disrespected in some now unspeakable way, suddenly had the face of my daughter. I thought back on the horrors of my childhood and I swore to myself then that I would never repeat that cycle and that I would try to avoid as many of my parents mistakes as possible because I was a disaster by all measures. I had to improve myself in order to achieve this but that was impossible in the relationship I was in and furthermore I just didn't feel as though I deserved to improve myself. Her mother and I stayed together for about 18 months after my daughter was born before the relationship completely fell apart. Once I left and I was all alone again, I realized that the only way to get over the pain of what I had done, so that I could actually rectify my behavior, was to confront it head on and be brutally honest with myself. Not justify it and try and ignore it, but take personal responsibility for what I had done and stop doing it. I got a decent job, I stopped drinking, taking dangerous drugs, going to strip clubs, smoking cigarettes, womanizing, etc. I lost 100 lbs. I was just beginning on my path of making something out of myself that I felt I could be proud of. Around that time, I had a friend in the “sovereign movement” who moved in and was sleeping on my couch during a rough time in his life. We would always talk about politics and he would blow me away with some of the things he would say. One day, I mentioned how impressed by Ron Paul I was in the 2008 election and he took the time to introduce me to the basic premise of libertarianism. From there, I just began reading libertarian and anarchist literature, and learning about economics and history in my free time and eventually I found myself here. Now I live my life according to the NAP and, while at times it can be difficult and I slip into old behaviors in minor ways (i.e. confronting people without feeling myself beginning to get enraged), I can say that my place in this world makes a lot more sense to me than it ever has. I can never go back now and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Thanks for listening!