Mishelle

Emanuel sorry to hear about your difficulties with your FOO at the moment and thanks for opening up with us about it. Dsayers your replies are so thoughtful and I so agree. I believe my travels were both to escape and explore and while they were often hard, I am so glad I did it, and while I was young. I really applaud you for your adventurous spirit! I think as far as your mother and what to do about that relationship, you said it all when you said you don't respect her. There is no turning back from that kind of truth and no use spending time and effort on someone you don't respect, that's very toxic! Still, I'd be inclined to not just "take off" without a word or under false pretenses. I would definitely write a letter where you express what you need to and tell her that for 6 months or so you need space to reflect on it all and won't be in contact at all. Maybe in that time you can write all the things you remember as abusive, and someday if she's really interested in you, and your experiences and perceptions, she can read it and actually try to venture out of her narcissism for a few hours to actually hear you. I hope you don't mind the advice, because here's one more little piece: Travel while you can, it's glorious! And it really does get more difficult as you age in every way.

I tried to open it but the wheel never stopped spinning, hope you'll repost the link!

Howdy fab philosophers! My latest post for anyone interested: http://peacecorpsworldwide.org/homesteading/2014/01/17/self-reliance-as-tradition/

Thanks Lowe, that's lovely to hear!

so kind of you to say!

Hi dsayers, thanks for your reply! I really get how a controlling father can lead to black and white thinking--I deal with this myself too, so I appreciate our attempts to always see past it. I have not heard of Norman Borlaug and will definitely check him out, thanks for the reference. If you think he's as great a friend to folks as Stefan then I most definitely must get to know him! And yes, as far as efficiency goes I should not be so flip. More true would be to say: I know other people care about efficiency so I don't have to, yay! Because it's true, we do need efficiency and we certainly need it in food production, and it's a preference/talent thing for me--it's not what I'm good at so I don't pay enough attention to it. In fact, Hubby and I are both big DIYers, at a great cost to efficiency, simply because we like it. It's a great sense of satisfaction for me to go into the garden and collect my lunch that I grew. It's a great sense of satisfaction for him to build a deck all alone though it makes everything more challenging. Of course I recognize "alone" is something of a misnomer, since we did not invent or make the tools, we are not planing our own timber, etc, we are certainly happy to have electricity to do these things (though when we didn't while building the cabin, that was fun too!). It's fascinating for me to come closer to really imagining what some aspects of life would've been like for pioneers. Large-scale food production is so efficient I can't imagine even a good number of people withdrawing would have much of an impact. I do think we need it no matter how local resource control becomes popular or possible. You're right, it's a redundancy issue--we need both to be empowered within the community. We need only to look at New Orleans after Katrina, or more recently to Sandy, to know that people need to be much more self-reliant. If you compare our experiences after disaster to somewhere whose people are more self-reliant (Japan comes to mind) you see how much more vulnerable we really are. The average grocery store has food for 3 days only and the average household for less than a week. When no one can fend for themselves, they turn very quickly to the government. "Amplifying food yield, to the benefit of the human race." This sounds like the Green Revolution, which by many measures has really not been as successful as promised. I will read up on Borlaug for sure, but in the meantime I can say that looking around the US, especially the Mid-west, there seems to be some real problems with the food. What folks are eating is killing them. More than sedentary lifestyle, more than pollution, it's the food. I'd like to see some real statistics around who exactly is benefiting and how. IMO, the poor would be better off to go to traditional diets of beans, lard and rice rather than Cheetos and Twinkies. It's not that I'm not a fan of science and technology, I am! It's just when the science is pushing so hard at the great expense of natural systems, this I think is misguided. We are not here to triumph over nature, but to cooperate together. We will never be able to force our collective will onto nature and win. She will just huff and puff and blow our house down.

As I say, so I do! http://peacecorpsworldwide.org/homesteading/2014/01/08/the-art-and-cr…-self-reliance/

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing! My immediate reflection, since you posted on my topic and that's where my thoughts immediately go, is that self-reliance and interdependence are not mutually exclusive. We are all producers and consumers, let's assume. The greater control you have over the means of your own survival, the more freedom you have to contribute meaningfully to the free market. Collapse will always be a possibility, there is no other possibility. The society needs to be structured so that minimum impact is felt on the individual, family, community when natural or man-made disasters occur. Central planning in these things can never work. Local control of food, water, energy resources means you are not a slave or a master. My 2 cents so far, but maybe I'll blog about this today, if so I'll include the link later. thanks for the inspiration and discussion!

Daxinth "This was when I encountered my own demons, suffered for a year or so with drugs, and found a light, some crappy self-help books that helped me continue digging until I found cognitive behavioral therapy. And I was cured. Understanding the self-talk that undermines my goals, and really helped push me to do more, so between d&d, gaming, CBT, and the national guard. I woke up only to be instantly distracted, I had been getting tutored by my russian friend to fill the gaps in my education. Rounding it out in history, world religions, math, sciences, and a great introduction to libertarian thought. Then Ron Paul came up, and I spent the next 3 years crawling out of my coma. My last hurdle was being stuck without a good argument to fall off the fence between libertarians and minarchism, had I just known why that wouldn't happen. That is where Stefan comes in, yesterday I watched 18 of the videos for philosophy and have read two books. I am generally very socially self conscious, overly critical, and have some odd fear of failure. I am still working through that but have found this very inspirational. I wrote a paper that I will be reviewing and hopefully reposting here to help me with my fear of being judged socially, and found out to be less intelligent that I think I am." Fascinating dear thanks for sharing! I can see you are a very thoughtful and insightful person and funny too, I just adore funny and sensitive combined! I also had similar issues around drugs and very negative self-talk and the self-help books did help quite a bit with that. I swing still quite dramatically between a kind of exhibitionism, I might call it, and a desire to hide away in a corner with great books and pretend those are the people I really know. Wow! Bravo Holo Cene! Yes this makes total sense. And I had the same experience hearing Stef for the first time, it's like I felt we were related, seriously, like siblings in a past life, LOL! I also must admit, I still have a penchant for conspiracy theory. Short of the reptilian crap I think there's a lot of truth in the social engineering stuff especially, and this is what most pisses me off--you only have to read Tragedy and Hope to know there is a basis for good argument.

So interesting MM, you were spared the conspiracy side-track, v nice! I so resonate with what you write here about war. I remember when I first realized that we still go to war, I was maybe 7. Before that I thought it was history, like stories you watch on tv, or the boogey man you know is not really real. I vividly remember being crushed, and had repeated dreams about actually being crushed by horses. I also vividly remember thinking, "oh no, no-no-no-no-no, this can't be, this can't be the world, I can't possibly be expected to play along with this." Powder: "-can't remember where I first heard Stef but he is as close to my own way of thinking of anyone I have ever heard. he also cured me of the conspiracy bug, not that a lot of it isn't valid, but with a single quote from a video about 911 he dismissed it all and put it into perspective... "So what? Even if the theories are true, its like giving a speeding ticket to a serial killer" I LOVE this!

Hi dsayers, Thanks for your food for thought, I appreciate it! I will read your piece, but this is just as an initial reply for now on the topic. Self-reliance for me is a first step to community reliance and a way to unplug from the matrix. We are going for food, water, energy independence as a testament to how easy it can be with modern technologies. We aren't there yet and it's not exactly easy! But as the hold on the grid gets tougher and more kinds of energy technology become available more cheaply, it's bound to get much easier. It is INCREDIBLY satisfying, the most satisfying work I've ever done. It is not efficient, though with a couple families out here working with us someday, maybe it could be. I don't give a hoot about efficiency, frankly. What I care about is living in alignment with natural systems. McDonalds may look efficient, but you are not looking at all the hidden costs. First of all, health: This is not real food--leave your burger out for 6 months on the counter and you will see it doesn't even spoil. This comes back to haunt the whole society in obscene health care costs. The transportation costs are off-set, and the food production costs as well, by indirect and direct government subsidies. The health of the individual and the planet requires us to actively participate in our own survival, not just hand it over to government and corporation. The biggest impetus for me to do this work is so that future generations don't loose these essential skills and this necessary level of independence. More soon . . . xelent I am excited to see your work and so glad you are back to feeding your creative self!!

Hi Wesley, it's looking very good and I think it will take some time, but can be an ongoing thing. We could maybe post it somewhere in the Donator section for now as it's more private, complete it to a minimal degree to everyone's liking, ask Michael to take a look, then repost it in the General section, but keep adding to it, links and whatnot. What do you think?

Interesting! You were able to capture so much detail. But, what does the dream mean to you? Why all the animals? This line popped out at me: "am in awe. I look towards the older people who are in amazement as well. I realize that they can achieve the same thing, and so can't I." And so can't I?! Did I miss something, or is that a Freudian slip?

Thank you Kevin, it does help. I also appreciate the link to this audio which I will listen to right away. Our teachings focused a lot on "who you are being" instead of "what you are doing" which I feel is very helpful. We talked a lot about "ego resistance" and generating action from the heart not the head, and not just reacting to bad, but generating good. It was actually very helpful to learn these things. It's been a couple years now since I left, but it was when they started getting into politics to "change the conversation" (Marianne Williamson running for senate now!) that I started speaking out about what I knew. "You are empowering the problem" I said and offered data on Obama and the unbelievable corruption on both sides, 9/11 BS, and so on. When they wouldn't even engage in a conversation I couldn't continue with them anymore. They are ALL Statists to the bone! It's actually pretty scary, because these people do have a lot of money and influence and most of the current gurus are babyboomers, so I see that influence only increasing in future. So, I am convinced now that y'all are right. Thank you very much for your patience with me and please continue to send me any resources that will continue to help. One of the motivations these last months with FDR has been for me to try to figure out a way to "convert" some of these women to listen more to reason. I think now that must be ego, lol, and like they say, I should think from my heart space which is telling me, my increasing rationality might be better served with others!

Speaking of enlightened, I'm feeling quite so at the moment! I also had this experience of meeting people who considered themselves long on the path to enlightenment (those who say they are there I dismiss immediately with an inward chuckle) but it was clearly because they dismissed all else beyond their subjective experience and could not recognize their darkness, or refused to acknowledge it. Denial is a very beautiful thing in LA-LA Land. Kevin you said: "The worst part was the subjectivism. That drove me crazy. At least the religious people I talked to didn't really try and pull that shit. The whole thing often became using this amorphous blob of mutually exclusive truthisms to contradict other people whenever they felt like it. Religious people do that too, I guess, but there wasn't like a single book that people could resolve these differences. It was just a distorted alpha male thing between terribly fragile people. It's painful to watch" I would so appreciate a specific story/example here! I'm sorry to be a pain, but this conversation is seriously working for me to untangle the falsehoods. I believe I have not fully accepted that I had a very hard time initially, lots of resistance, to the spiritual movement. I have always been a DO-ER. I chalked that up to ego and the teaching mirrors that. But, I want to realize if I spent 3 years distracted, I really do! I was quite impressed with the teacher, that's what kept me there. OMG, am I doing the same now?! It's ok, it's just questions. But it makes me remember in greater clarity that the teacher did disappoint me, when it came to Truth. I had the resolve to walk away when I realized not even she was willing to look at it. Building cathedrals in the swamps. I want to acknowledge that maybe it's more dangerous than I'm accepting. Or maybe it's not exactly dangerous, but just not the clear and direct path that could be if I stopped justifying my particular path. Anyway, thanks for keeping this conversation alive. I am on the verge of saying until further notice I will refrain from mentioning the spiritual journey here for at least a year! Give me a bit more food for thought please?

Hi Daniel, No I haven't ventured to Miami yet, but I hope you'll meet up with wdiaz or whoever down there in the meantime. I am still considering coming in mid-Jan, but haven't made any serious plan yet. I will take a Southern roadtrip for sure, but whether I can make it all the way to Miami I'm not so sure! thanks for connecting and keep in touch

Thanks for the question powder! Cute cat! In these interviews by the end, the caller (mr nihilist), had plateaued. In other words, Stef was no longer able to get anywhere with him, he was deflated. It was really something to hear I thought. In the beginning in the role play you could really hear the power and passion in his voice, by the end of the final call, when he said the "You won't take up arms" he meant you've got to be willing to fight for yourself--like, where's the powerful guy from the role-play that sounded pissed off enough to take up arms against everyone, now not willing to face his own truth, hold himself and others accountable, etc. That's what I got out of it. Stef could so easily be a great therapist--I thought he worked with this guy so very well! I really wonder what's happened to him since--anybody know if he's still around here? I think nihilism looks different on men and women maybe. He turned his anger out on the world, calling everyone stupid and thinking himself superior. For me it was much more internal--"nobody cares" about what happens to the world, that was my mantra, "so I'll stop caring too." When in Rome, kind of thing. Going against my true nature was the downfall, because I truly cared and have since my earliest memories, more than those around me. I had to see that this was also a gift, not just a curse. I had to stop feeling victimized by my own character and start looking for my tribe. Stef also said something else that I experienced--if you're looking around and that's all you see, then that's all you're looking for. I didn't say it right, but basically, if you think the world is full of assholes, you will distort every situation to make that true. Stef said to Mr Nil, "you are into the wallowing." I think the darkness is definitely addictive. The question becomes for me, "Is reason enough to pull one out of it?" Had I found Stef back then, would he and FDR have been enough? The answer is absolutely not. There is no real structure here, there is no true community in the way I knew it with the "evolving consciousness" community I was involved with. Still, I don't want to get stuck there and make assumptions about others. Kevin, you said you were exposed to A Course in Miracles from your folks. This is of course "the new age bible" and I never liked it. (As a little-known factoid, it was written by a CIA agent. Totally vetted, this is not tinfoil hat stuff I promise, I looked into it myself including the original sources.) Can you tell us more about your experiences growing up and how this affected you. I know you mention a bit above, and I saw that it negatively impacted you, but if you could include any specifics or other anecdotes that really stuck out for you, if you felt like it, it would help me I think unravel this better. You seemed affected by my religious/spiritual person comparison, since you have childhood experience with both, what do you see as the similarities and differences?

OK this conversation has become borderline amazing for me, thank y'all! Not that I've processed through it all, but the role-play in the first interview was very cool. They were both very effective and I could see very much how something like that in the arts (kinda like 'the conversation' piece) would be good. In it I found myself in that place again responding to the earlier quote I liked: "Yes, sour grapes, cause the grapes are fucking sour asshole!" hehe I also thought, unfortunately nihilism is the cultural push at the moment, it seems to me. It's like Alex Jones--"if you're not pissed off you're not paying attention." I realize he's not a nihilist, but he's attitude, comportment and some theories seem kinda the same. Still, I still listen on occasion! I like entertainment as much as the next girl. I noticed Stef said in the last one, ". . . fight for your soul." Hmmm, soul? That pesky evasive language! The best of it all though, was "You won't take up arms against the darkness!" And this is exactly it. He summed up right there what the lack was in the spirituality movement is for me. They think they are doing this, they want to do this, I really believe. But I didn't feel they were really taking up arms, I felt they were trying to build cathedrals in a swamp. "Building the plane as we're flying it," they say. Hmmm, I don't think that product would last long in the market

So I'm almost finished with the segments posted above and am really appreciating them, thanks for including them here Kevin. What immediately struck as exactly me was in the first one: "Nihilism comes from sour grapes" and out of a desperate idealism that is so frustrated. YES! And of curse I really resonate with the idea that we need to find a way to help people get here more quickly, instead of the roundabout ways it seems many of us have come. I'm going to keep my focus there for a while as I consider your comments and listen to the final audio.

Thank you Lians and cynicist for presenting your thoughts to me in such a pleasant and non-confrontational way. It certainly makes it easier to hear you. I did think I put a "label of caution" on it when I said "I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me." I can see now that was not enough context and I will work harder next time as you suggest. I did move away from the spiritual movement because of just what you say, some of it is dangerous. If Kevin, or anyone, in future would like to engage me further in some sort of "debate" I'd ask that you begin by showing honest curiosity and ask a question or two--"beginner's mind" was a very valuable tool I learned from Depak. That said, I am still a student, as are we all. This is an important topic to me, the driving force in my life is to help evolve our world, which was the despair that pushed into the movement in the first place. Nihilism and addiction share several similar qualities at their core. I realize here some of you maybe using more of a theoretical definition of nihilism, but for me it was an EXPERIENCE of nihilism. There was no reasoning happening in my head, this was nothing anyone could have reasoned me out of. It didn't take philosophy, virtue, truth--those things were totally meaningless to me! It took love, compassion, understanding, kind people, prayer, meditation, mindful awareness, and a shit-ton of work in becoming the existential detective of my inner emotional world, Tolle was quoted often in Maté's book. Here's one I particularly like: "Basically, all emotions are modifications of one primordial, undifferentiated emotion that has its origin in the loss of awareness of who you are beyond name and form. Because of its undifferentiated nature, it is hard to find a name that precisely describes this emotion. "Fear" comes close, but apart from a continuous sense of threat, it also includes a deep sense of abandonment and incompleteness. It may be best to use a term that is as undifferentiated as that basic emotion and simply call it "pain". (413) The experience of nihilism and addiction share another very deep common component--hopelessness. The feeling that the world is a total shit hole and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, so why try. The spiritualists help you to see the world with eyes of compassion that starts with oneself, and it works. And I will continue to try to explain why and how it might work as a first step toward greater rational philosophy and UPB. IMO, if a book alone, or a girlfriend, or a new sport, or a philosophy can snap you out of nihilism, then we did not experience the same degree of it. I must have had the heroine version where maybe there is a marijuana version as well. I apologize that I do not understand "non-dualism" and that I allowed Kevin's aggression to cloud my responses.

Nice one Meeri, thanks for sharing, I passed it along!

Ode to Stef Much more than learning the truth teacher brings A sense of hope a call to patience a stern voice Amidst laughter always springs A mind explosion a kind touch a chance a choice A word salad or Mixed metaphor Emphasizing enthusiasm Waiting at the door Naming the next chasm Forced open the window left Closed by the man-god disjoint Virtue’s message far more deft Dark shadows bow to anoint Inspiring the drive to forge ahead Claiming the need to stop And breathe! Insisting fear drop Screaming Bring truth Or leave! Seize a surge of courage the new dance Walk or run or crawl from the trance Brave that slow tear Weep or whisper clear What asks he for the gifts he shares? That the world hear his song Christina A coin and a caller Consistency The skill to tell a Small child Through fun To provide a son a daughter Every single one The treasure of life That knows Isabella What reason and virtue afford Too high for any lord For explorers alone Artists lovers of life Keepers of joy Decipherers of Philosopher’s stone Acquire wisdom as easily a toy What’s real are the dreams that violence kills What’s wrong are the drums that drown out wills Those who work to destroy and enslave Enclose and deprave Enrage and decay The peace that looms so far away What we know still We live for today While shooting for tomorrow Dive deep into that sorrow So truth never stands at bay The strength it takes The resolve and withal To save just say A thousand lives a day More or less It’s just a guess It holds no sway There’s a deeper message here To the teacher I hold so dear Yes to reason let us fold But it’s thanks to you I’ll stand bold.

Who here did not get into conspiracy theory to some degree first before finding Stef?

It makes total sense--you are telling me the way I got myself out of nihilism is wrong. You never asked me to make a case, you just started criticizing how I did it and called me irresponsible for sharing my experience in this thread. Lians, thanks for your thoughtful reply, I understand what you are trying to say. "I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me." This is what I wrote. Do you really think advising to read Tolle or Wilbur is going to keep someone away from philosophy? They are philosophers! I also think Alex Jones is a good stepping stone and if only 1 in 1,000 make their way from there to here, I think it's worth it to churn out a few tinfoil hats. Conspiracy theory is a great first step to critical thinking, as long as you keep stepping into it further. I appreciate the kind way you expressed your thoughts on this very much. I will not be refraining from sharing my experience just because they don't fit in with the culture here. BTW, I did read Maté's book, it's excellent. He makes a very strong case for not ever forcing any addict to give up their drug cocktail of choice until they are stable in their lives and are ready to give them up on their own.

Q: How did you get out of nihilism? A: Apparently not in the right way according to Kevin.