Mishelle

My latest post, not on self-reliance, but on my next fav pursuit--New Age pillow bashing http://peacecorpsworldwide.org/homesteading/2013/11/14/love-to-the-rescue/ please don't be afraid to critique me! (except on poetry, that's a special invitation, and we aren't that familiar yet, hehe)

I just listened to 335: True Self/False Self and this one really resonates with me when he talks about enthusiasm and how/why people try to sabotage it. I also thought Stef's gracious acceptance and examination of the criticisms he got in the first segment--I think his name was John--was about the most brilliant piece of modeling in this I've ever seen. This is why he is where he is, exactly this!

Thanks for asking CC, I appreciate your curiosity and the chance to express my thoughts and feelings on these topics. My experience with sex in long-term rels is that men are more concerned about the quantity and women are more concerned about the quality. This is always a struggle and negotiation. I want longer, more adventurous, more intimate encounters where he just wants it, and wants me to want it how he wants it, and might forget I even have needs if I don't make them known. What happens when you give men free reign without objection to quality? The quality quickly diminishes. So while I think on a scale of ethics swinging tops prostitution, still I would argue that neither solves this fundamental issue in the couple's world. I also think adults spend way to much time pursuing the lesser drives and that comes at a cost to the entire society. I realize that sounds judgy and maybe I'm wrong and this actually keeps the world from becoming even worse, but still my gut tells me that's not the case. Do I sound prudish? Cause I'm actually not, I just think more moderation in all things "appetite" would do the world a whole lot of good. I first looked at hardcore porn magazines when I was 12. By hardcore I mean bondage, S&M, pissing, etc. They were in the basement, my step-father's. My mom had her stack of erotica in the bathroom cupboard, almost equally racy. This is what I saw before I ever saw the real thing, and we were just mid-west middle class suburban family in the 80s. Meanwhile my virginity is considered a family topic for the dinner table. That I found them and looked at them, and smoked my mom's marijuana at 13 is considered my fault, for snooping. Imagine for a moment what this does to a girl's psyche. Imagine a bit more how much worse and more accessible it is today. Our gluttonous appetites and habits are ruining the culture and I really think we need to join in on a very serious conversation on sex where ethics are a centerpiece.

For sure! And I'm v grateful for this thread, like xelent only currently, I'm in Stef addiction-mode, around our house it's like non-stop Stef for at least 6 months now I think. Hubby comes in and out regularly all day on the weeks he works at home, and will listen a bit, maybe comment. The other day I was listening to something as usual as I work inside and it stopped and I hadn't had a chance to reload another podcast yet and he said, with an air of disappointment, "Oh, is Stef finished?" I replied, "Don't worry dear, I don't think he's ever finished."

Thanks for sharing your input and experience in this a. I would agree with what you write here, except for the part on marriage. Marriage has historically had very little to do with sex at all, this is one of the reasons prostitution began to flourish, and the bulk of long-term marriages have little sex. Those who do still have good sex--and I can vouch for this one--in no way do I consider sex part of some trade with my husband, nor he with me. We desire each other, we have no children to raise. If he wanted to have sex with prostitutes as well and was open about that with me, we'd have a nice long comfortable discussion about his feelings before I said: NO WAY in HELL, go see a therapist first, I'll read up on role-play sex, and then we'll talk again. There is a "trade" in marriage, but it's nothing to do with sex, those who confuse this end up divorced.

If you are taking the NAP seriously then I think eggs are indeed against it, poultry are constantly killed by predators if they are free-range, few of these animals would make it in the wild. Animals will eat anything you put in front of them, domesticated animals will forage very easily under normal circumstances and supplemental food is hardly needed except in off-seasons. What do you do with the deer, boar, coon, squirrel, etc,. that become a nuisance?

"Wouldn't it be fun to pretend to believe in magic occasionally?" It's GREAT fun! Drives my creativity. I don't have to even pretend! And then when I need my rationality back, I flip the switch, and I can do it even on drugs. That takes great devotion and practice. We were meant to experience these things in the right context, without them we will psychically wither and emotionally starve, and that's just what's happening to people's creativity I think, it's a kind of soul-death. Just read The Little Prince In it's proper place magic-making and believing is essential, heavens let's hope this community never becomes so excessively rational that they forget how to dance or draw an elephant being swallowed by a serpent !

Thanks for posting this SashaJade and starting this interesting convo, I'm impressed with your replies Pepin and FR, well-described and written! I've read with much interest on this topic for many years, along with books on addiction, and have much personal experience as well. One of the best things I've studied on it is Don Beck's theory of Spiral Dynamics Integral because it deals with the issues from a much more universal perspective--how does the use of the drug fit into the larger social picture and what is the biological relationship -- he talks about cultural evolution, crisis and group dynamics and where the drugs fit in. In one instance he uses the example of a football team he worked with (he's also worked with Nelsen Mandela--the film Invictus is about his suggested strategy for uniting South Africa). I can't give the details now because it's been a couple years since I was looking into it, but I was very impressed with the way he was able to demonstrate the Bio-Psycho-Social interdependence inherent in drug use and addiction in general. It was really fascinating and if you are curious it was in his downloadable online lectures of around 8 fascinating hours I'll happily repeat one of these days. My personal opinion is that we self-medicate for a reason: to "fix" a problem that is real, and it's not just an internal problem by a long shot. I know that sounds overly-simplistic, but there's so much shame and denial in drug use that I think folks lose site of the underlying issue, it's not just "your" problem, it's an enormous cultural problem (associated with impending collapse or immense upheaval perhaps?) that the drug addict is dealing with in a more appropriate way I think than those happily and blindly playing along with the social destruction. They are skipping their way to the guillotine SOBER--OMG--how insane is that?! That said I have been in real and immediate crisis and the first thing I did, quite naturally, was to immediately stop all drug use (I only use alcohol and cannabis at this point, but in my 20s and early 30s I tried most everything except heroine). Several of our uni circle went through rehab, a few are now dead from their excessive use of primarily cocaine. Ideally we'd all be more like Stef--drug-free but still awake, and strong enough to face the dragon without crutches. Until then, being very aware of my limitations and realistic and moderate in my usage and quitting regularly for several months each year is the way I have managed it. Thanks for sharing your experiences, I appreciate reading them very much!

"Moralising about preferences seems futile to me." This is not a question of simple preferences imho, and an easy way to demonstrate that would be to turn the tables. Let's say your love partner has a acquired a particular preference you do not like--she likes to penetrate you anally with a King Kong dildo--but you don't find this appealing at all and it hurts and makes you bleed, so you don't want to do it with her. Of course, a male prostitute would have no problem performing this act, so you suggest she see one each week to empty her orgasm in this way with a pro. Still seem like an appealing preference to you? Or might there be a sliver of an ethical issue now?

Ah yes, I see, I don't watch crummy movies.

"Doesn't all paid labour involve "selling the body"? Why is labour using one part of the body morally different than another?" I would argue that no, it does not. Selling time and resources would seem to name it better imho. As a housekeeper, for example, I am not playing with my own natural emotions in order to serve or execute my labor, my earnings. Hehe, or maybe I am, in which case I guess housekeeping doesn't suit me. This is interesting to consider for sure. What does it cost the scientist to sell his ideas to Hitler? That's how it feels to me. And yes, now we venture into feelings, not very rational to be sure. There is a cost to this kind of rel that goes unexplored because folks are too judgy and self-indulgent.

I should have made more clear in that earlier post, Hubby is big joker, likes the devil's advocate position in most situations, that reply was in his characteristic half-jest mode "How many partnerships (marriage or otherwise) would occur between men and women if the woman was not prepared to offer sex as part of the deal? Are such sexual partnerships still "prostitution", or is it only prostitution when money and strangers are involved?" In my current experience: VERY few. Good questions. What is being brought to the table by each person? Sex for money, that's the trade called prostitution. But when I bring so much other goodness and so many other virtues to the exchange, as does he, this is of course very different. Maybe it's the shallowness that feels objectionable to feminists? But then I would suggest we challenge our own shallowness first. Or maybe it's the lost potential? Because if men would focus their intense seductive energy inwardly more and outwardly less, there would be more satisfaction for her in the rel. I get the urge to make sex easy and meaningless and part of the simple needs to be met, I see too where it is about sexual release or dominance/submission, or distraction, or addiction, or all the other things that come with feeding the biological urges, but still I weigh it against what would be my first choice, which would be that it wouldn't be necessary to go to those extremes to be real in this world. For whatever that's worth.

Thanks FP, v kind of you to say. I like your unscientific exploration! I think this ties perfectly into ethics, because in order to do what you are saying, there must be extraordinary transparency. Ultimately I do believe selling the body to be unethical, sexually and in a few other areas as well. Still, shaming is a form of psychic violence and therefor, as Stef says about all violence, it will have the opposite effect. That may sound contradictory from my earlier post a bit, but still what feels most beneficial and evolved to me is a kind of relationship where all is laid bare--but to this day men are unwilling to defend it, women are unwilling to hear it--and so we do not as a culture evolve beyond these very old patterns. Ideally women would step up inside the couple to make sure her man does not need to explore seedier avenues, and vice-versa. I like the convo, I don't feel my thoughts are set in stone, even if it may sound that way!

I just spoke of it to Hubby and he throws out another perfect argument right off the cuff, even while stripping wire, hehe. He says: "Those men are so exploited! Just for some companionship and attention they are required to pay a prostitute, because all women can think about is money, and all they value men for is their possibility and intention to give it to them." I realize to some degree this is her "argument" -- that we are made to feel sorry somehow thru the patriarchy propaganda and this is how the oldest trade in the world began and continues to thrive -- lol But seriously, why not at least attempt one rational question--like what might it look like to stop playing the victim for one goddamn minute? People like sex, sex pays, let's at least start there.

Hi, how intriguing thanks for posting! I find this article to be very shallow. Has she any data besides a silly film? Has she spoken to prostitutes, male and female alike. The sex trade in most places in the world is an equal opportunity employer and there are loads of men in it--in Thailand "katoys" or cross-dressing or feminized boys attract sex tourists from around the world. The female minister says "There is NO sex trade in Thailand!" Women are not only complicit in this, they are up to their eyeballs in responsibility they refuse to see, so gifted at pointing fingers! Furthermore, I have rape and "courtesan" fantasies, and so do lots of women. Are we all deranged wanna-be prostitutes in her eyes, I wonder? What of female dominance and aggression, seriously, she has hardly scratched the surface in anything of substance. If one hasn't had the experience of dominating and penetrating in a "male way" can one empathize with the (potentially) positive allure and result that might have? OK I'm babbling now, but still, that I can come up with all this in a few minutes shows me how little she has scratched the surface in this piece that really doesn't even deserve to be published anywhere, because it contributes nothing. Except . . . It is still an intriguing and powerful conversation to start!

A morning of verse produced this, on love and life and evolution. Anyone who ventures in, am so blessed by you thanks. Self-Inflicted Injury “Living the dream,” he said. The day before he disappeared again. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. Don’t attach. Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt. Just Stop! Freeze. Frame. Reframe. Refocus. Reframe again. I don’t care about legacy. I don’t care about honesty, integrity, posterity, he said. The good or evil of the future is lost on me. What do you want of me again? A nihilist, an atheist, an amoral cunt, or your last Christmas tree? Me with you again, the recurring self-inflicted injury. “Aren’t you a bit bipolar?” she said, directness her best-only attribute, or pursuit, or some ill-possessed attempt to contribute. Like the call of the season to shift, I beg you back in again, cage on my heart. Keeper of my key. The wind soars, the beat thrills, the sweet taste erupts in me, but I hold back the fruit, the seed crushed, but the eternal eye expansive. You are never really here with me. The fall leaf both eager and apprehensive to descend from the limb. A penetrating chill, as a penetrating ray, at once the last drop of hope will play-- What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. So we swallow the signs and pretend away. The passion fruit’s stem is stiff against all sway. Bracing it all, every rise and fall, the urgent beck and call The coming winter’s day— I must hibernate again, he cries, as he licks the tears from near her eyes. Don’t pine for me, I’m gone to you, as you to me. Out of sight, out of mind. It’s not meant to hurt you love. It’s meant to save me dear. From my deep sea of fear. The longest lasting pain of the seer. Then he disappears again. A long long time coming, but change gonna come. Oh yes it will. Employed again to the call of bees, just feel it. Just say it. If only because, you asked for it that way. Name it as it really is. Cause change gonna come. Oh yes it will. Not real love this right. Just another self-inflicted injury. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbO2_077ixs

Hi MCS, I'm sorry for my delay in responding! It is really about nothing else than I never saw it, because sometimes I'm getting lost in these forums. I wish I had some kind of expertise to offer after reading so much that I can relate to in your share. Honestly, the lines between fantasy and reality often baffle me, and I've come to accept that and even appreciate it, and dedicate its expression in a few creative endeavors that really benefit from this part of me. i really don't know if it's normal or not, or at what point it becomes a kind of pathology. I can tell you I've designed my entire life around these aspects of me, for better or worse. But, I say for better, because I'm profoundly satisfied at this stage in my life. I don't think that's exactly the same thing as happy There's a saying in Czech that translates like: If you want to know all women, know one profoundly. I think it's normal at a young age (meaning even into 20s and into 30s!) that the seeming solution to problems that arise from a need for evolution in a relationship or individually result in this instinct to look outward, which is probably good, initially. It's when you start to see a pattern arise, or when you feel a general dis-ease and lack of knowing how to move forward that the inward dive that is required. So from what you write here, I see nothing at all unhealthy, and this persona you've created seems rational and balanced! There must be a dream before there can be a reality. It's just when you start replacing the dream with the reality that you know something must be off. Do you feel like this fantasy disrupts your reality, or gives you the power to raise the bar in your life and relationships?

Narcissists are heavily rewarded in our culture--with money, attention, even fame. If it's in the culture, it's in us as individuals. The antidote is compassion, imho.

I've learned so much about humans by living closer animals! Our dogs never hold a grudge, though they hurt each other regularly. The turkeys want to dominate the hens. The mamas will do anything to protect their chicks. Among the domesticated animals there is occasional accidental death and never ever murder. Among even the wildest animals there is never mass slaughter.

this is ole southern know-how! you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

This makes total sense to me xelent! it's hard though to trust someone with work in such an intimate setting without having a worldview and vision beyond both work and family. This is where I often get stopped. Just getting along does not work at all, conflict fosters evolution Which brings us to the next problem that without self-knowledge conflict becomes aggressive and defensive, instead of generative, and this is one of the very good things i've learned from limited experience with a new age community. I did a bit of research on communes and polygamy and the "next generation" viewpoint--children in these situations generally did not have a great experience and felt a strong push-back to traditional values. Now I don't know what that means and the research was pretty superficial, but it did seem it was practicality that was lost. Mutual value as you say is the key, but that opens a bigger conversation

ah, yes, I do remember some of that from our first discussion! So it's the mysticism in particular? Or the belief that if we wish it so it will be? Or that if everyone would just stop shoveling bad karma on government and let them do their job all would be hunky-dunky? Or you just don't like singing kumbaya around the fire pit roasting weenies (or maybe that's tofu-kale burgers these days?!)?

Ideally we would not be alone here, that's just it. Not sure what you meant by " with some very strange ideas elsewhere" , but shoot, I'll admit while I write that I'm smiling! If you build it, they will come. And if they don't those many pecks of pickled peppers will go to the pigs! oh la vache!!

In case anyone is interested I wanted to post a link to my blog, where I often write about self-reliance, homesteading, conspiracy theory, revolution, and what not. I'd love to hear from you if you can relate! big love & cheers Mishelle http://peacecorpsworldwide.org/homesteading/2013/10/25/self-reliance-kills-the-corporatocracy/

This is such a fascinating and pertinent argument and I thank everyone before me for adding such thought-provoking points. I'd like to chime in from a more personal angle and hope this may add something to the conversation. We moved to the country 4 years ago full-time and for a few years before that we were here building a cabin during my hubby's off-hitch weeks. At that time we had no electricity, hauled in water and lived in a tent. Now we have turkeys, ducks, chickens and will soon get sheep. Self-sufficiency is our reasoning and motivation--food, water, energy independence--what does it take with modern amenities? how hard is it really? could two people with outside jobs, no experience and few relevant skills really pull it off? These were the questions motivating us. I was a vegetarian for a few years after learning about the conditions and treatment of animals in the factory farming system. I was often ill and caught colds regularly, but I did not equate it at the time with my diet. Then I learned from a nutritionist I had a sensitivity to wheat and dairy. I switched to what they are now calling a Paleo diet, but is really much older than this new trend. I've had one cold in 5 years and at 45 I'm one of the healthiest people I know. As for the moral implications of killing animals, I've also explored this in a very hands-on way. In addition to our own animals, we also trap and kill wild hog on our property. These hogs destroy vast areas of farmland and the riverbanks and are considered vermin here. Anyone who has lived this close to the land would say the same thing--nature is not set up for vegans. The amount of grains and veggies one must consume in this diet really requires the mass production farming system we have now, producing grains and lots of them, fertilizing them with chemicals instead of manure, and distributing them from a central location because no small or local farm could produce that much veg and grain. The Permaculture movement is the closest thing around when it comes to aligning with natural systems. Here we see the cooperation of plant, animal, human in a cycle that works, that restores the land and supports the human. It's really unfortunate that killing has to be a part of it, and I know no one who enjoys this part of the process. We are here to align and flourish with nature first, not to force our version of virtue onto it. I remain open to hearing all different sides of this argument, but I do also feel committed to aligning with the reality of life and believing we can all get through life without anyone killing any animals for food seems utopian and somewhat naive. I also agree with xelent. Starting with how we treat our fellow humans seems much more urgent undertaking.