Mishelle

Hi Phil, thanks for reply! I don't want to slice straws, I really am curious about this. So, unconditional love is a temporary state of parent to child until they reach maturity, then the love moves to conditional? And what about friends and partners?

Hi Sashajade and Phil, thanks for your input. Do you find unconditional love and support to be somewhat antithetical to defooing? And if I'm understanding you right, a child's love of parent is conditional whereas the parental love should be unconditional? Sasha I'm sorry to hear about your friend and the effect it's having on your relationship together. I have cut ties with several friends in the last few years who also meet your description. I cannot be friends with someone who is manipulative, so I guess that would mean my friendships are conditional. Maybe that's why I have so few?!

I think this it what liberty must look like expressed in solo dance! Gorgeous!! http://www.wimp.com/movesmercury/

You are an admirable speaker! I have a question about unconditional love, parental or otherwise, and am wondering your thoughts. I feel like there must always be conditions on love, otherwise it's kind of like an invitation to abuse or take advantage or justify bad behavior. I wonder if as a mom I had a child who was abusive to others for example, or was addict and refused help and treated me badly, but I still gave that child unconditional love and support that I become an enabler and worsen the issue. Your thoughts?

Heard nothing of evil here, am breathless, good workout, thanks!

Recently someone posted about the Conspirituality movement, which I find fascinating and have been writing about in my blog without even realizing it's "a movement". My hubby just chimed in, "Don't foget, taking a shit is also a movement." hehe So, I did a general search for the art of this so-called movement. Ok, so what do y'all think? kinda catchy?! LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQx5PQ9V9v8

ooooohhhhh nooooooo this is beyond painful! this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me think we're still going 10 steps back for every single step forward

Hi MSC and other fascinating, sensitive, provocative FDRers, I saw your link to this convo in the other thread and am sorry to hear of these terrible childhood experiences that leave you feeling you've been taught to enjoy inflicting pain on others. I am learning from y'all and am so glad for that, even though the topics are often painful. I think these things might play out quite differently for men and women, but I really have no idea, because my experience with this level of emotional unpacking has been exclusively with women up until now. Still, maybe something might click or give you some other thoughts or direction, so I will try. What first struck me is it seems you are not making any distinction between emotional and physical pain, is that right? This would seem to me the first place to put my attention. Also, In your life now, how is this showing up? And, when considering speaking with your folks, what is the path you can/will take if they normalize their behavior and treat you as the one making a mountain from a mole hill? I think it's really commendable that you even attempt to trace this feeling back to specifics in your upbringing and want to learn from that, help others learn and move on from such destructive behavior. I think you understand as well, that this is in the culture, very deeply, and more people share in this kind of experience than do not. Here in the South US, NOT hitting your children is considered bad parenting and the cause of all current social ills, so it's the exact opposite of what we in this community want to achieve in the world. IMHO, if we want to make real headway, we've got to look as deeply as possible at ourselves, and then as universally as possible to the culture at large to recognize the patterns, and try to keep out of everything in the middle. I struggle with this myself, I want to "convert" those I already know and have come to love, and oh how I have tried! For the effort required, I do not know if it's really worth it. Or maybe we've just got to sing to the choir for a while before venturing off to Vaudeville. The world really is in a trance, and that's how we've got to think of it--what are the chances that YOU will be the one to wake your folks up out of the trance all by yourself? Most likely, you would be among the last to be able to do this with them, and that has nothing to do with you, that is just the nature of hierarchy. Lastly, I don't think your family's efforts or lack there of, or the entire culture's mass delusions, have managed to turn you into an unempathetic Zombie creature, not by a long shot. We ALL have a shadow side, and to stay on the righteous path we choose each day to follow the light instead. You are right where you need to be, there's nothing wrong with you, and the truth you see now will eventually become the new normal and you will leave this life knowing that just by being YOU, you played a part in the world's awakening. Bravo brothers and sisters!

Hi! I would love to hear about your love life revelation!! I'm glad the story sounded cute to you and not cheesey Because actually after I wrote it I wondered about how it would be received in this circle of highly rational people. I am still reading and listening through all Stef's work, so I don't know a lot, but am pretty familiar with the gist of it all, and just need it to sink in more so I truly absorb it and learn to talk about it with others. The Mecosystem stuff in particular seems so relevant and such a great path to healing in our world. I thought later about that same line you quoted---"hmmm, does that kinda go against Stef's teachings on true love as a result of ethics? But you also resonated with that desire to be loved just because you exist, right? It's like, I didn't have to "DO" anything for his love, and this felt quite extraordinary to me. On the other hand, he did have to do something in a way, he had to "woo" me a bit. Does that seem a bit unfair? As for the ethics part, that did eventually play into it all, very much so--I fell for him because he is a "good" person, deep level of integrity and commitment, a man of his word, remarkably consistent, so different from my father. Anyway, I guess I felt some ambivalence after I wrote that because initially, I truly believe, there's got to be some kind of physical chemistry with each other, something that feels like it's magnetically drawing you both in, otherwise I think the relative inertia and/or chaos of existence would get in the way of even exploring someone's virtue, ya know? OK, your ponderings, do tell . . .!

I think we are seeing the trimmings of this right now in the alternative media. Investigative reporting is calling, craft, skill, for some, and it is the desire to uncover, to find truth, the commitment to excellence and exceptional critical thinking skills and strong sense of honor that drive the best of these reporters--Jon Rappaport, James Corbett, Richard Grove and so on, --and then those names rounded off with the experts and thinkers of their fields, like Stef of course, and Dr. Colin Ross, John Taylor Gatto, all the whistleblowers coming out of the woodwork--this is the way it's supposed to look, imho! If we can keep up this momentum and this relative freedom, the dam will burst and that will be the new normal around the globe, because people recognize excellence and justice and want that for themselves. what are your thoughts?!

That's great! I personally believe very strongly that a big part of our issues in this country stem from a general disconnection to nature You are welcome to come, I enjoy hosting and rarely have visitors. My hubby is home only half the month and those times would not be good because we stay very busy together. But otherwise my schedule is open and I work from home. Something to keep in mind now that it's cooled off. We can keep in touch here for now in case any one becomes interested, and when you feel like making a plan, email me please.

You're welcome, and thanks for the chat, I'm glad to learn more about you! I really understand now and like your idea to start fresh. And as for the "sealing the deal" kind of move that takes the flirt to the next level, I think sincerity is the way to go, and you seem genuine and communicative so I think you will be inspired in the moment and it will feel more natural than maybe you can imagine right now. In my case, I was not initially attracted to my now-hubby, and was not looking at all, and had just gotten out of a bad relationship of 2 years with a complete narcissist, so the timing was not good and I was in a rather dense place. Still, he got through to me quickly. We chatted a couple of times and then he said very directly but kindly, when I was evading him a bit: "I'd like to get to know you better." Of course, I knew this, he'd already asked me out and I'd said yes, but just hadn't found the time yet. (We were in Thailand, I was on a work assignment). I still wasn't that attracted to him, I felt he was too "conservative" for me, too square, I was kind of a wild child back then He was a nice guy, attractive, but not for me. Then he took me out a few times and by date #3 I was smitten against the odds. Here's how it happened, this simple: 1. To get to the restaurant I had to sit behind him on the motorbike and my body responded and I was like, oohhh, wow, he's pretty hunky, I did not notice this before. 2. He made a huge gesture on date #3--went to a very nice restaurant in advance, ordered special dinners with the chef, reserved the best table, really made a big effort for no other reason than to impress me. I was very impressed. 3. He asked me to stay with him in Thailand after my assignment was over and I said no, so then he changed his entire plan (back then he spent 6 mo in SE Asia/6 mo working in Alaska for many years) and a couple months later showed up at my door where I was temporarily living in a trailer park in rural Arkansas--now that's a grand gesture! I thought, this guy is for real, grow up girl and get with the program. And so began our lovely romance that has become a deep and stable partnership of now 10 years. So I share my little story because I think it demonstrates how love happens, it's so not complicated--not by a plan, not through fancy moves, and with authenticity, sincerity, humility, courage, a sense of adventure and just making a woman feel truly valued for no other reason than that she exists--these things are priceless and irreplaceable. And just for the record so this doesn't sound like some fairy tale, we work at it. imho, the entire culture has intimacy issues, and in marriage those get painfully highlighted or buried with disastrous consequences. Good luck and I hope you'll share more as you move forward in this exciting time!

Hi! I've seen your threads and have considered responding, but I live way out in the country, so it's not an easy thing to get there, though I want to because I would love to talk in person about all things here. I would also be willing to host something if any of you like camping and the simple life If you had something in the afternoon it would be much easier for me, then I could get there and back same day. I'm about 2.5 hours away from IAH. Glad you are getting together in any case, and thanks for thought and extra push.

Hi again, thanks for your reply! You seem to have very good communication skills, even in the way you write, so I'm also glad you have this woman as a friend, it sends good vibes through all future relations I think! So now I'm curious to learn more about this potential I am unclear whether you do have romance on your mind? Flirting is so unique to the personality, I think. It's not something easy to teach, that's for sure. My hubby for example, would not be able to learn this in a way that would feel natural to him. This is actually what initially attracted me to him, because it came off as very authentic, no posing, which is such a breath of fresh air in any circumstance. Now in marriage I can say I appreciate it very much! Have you had many girlfriends? Have you imagined her as girlfriend? Why do you want to get better at flirting? Are you looking for more of a sexual rel, or a true romance, or a potential partner? Gender equality, yes, I get it. I did not like hearing this advice and it really did haunt me for years. I did not want to believe it, I was very independent, much more than any girl I knew, but as a generalization, it's true. This kind of thing can't be universal in any case. Women are more co-dependent than men--it's our evolutionary edge, it's a thorn in our side, it's a block to deep confidence and happiness, it's biology because we are more vulnerable and dependent in our biology. We will always struggle with this I think and right now we are trying to push against it in the collective, ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist, bully through it, but it's still there. This is not about equality, it's about reality--no one can take the burden of pregnancy and infant care from us, this automatically makes us more dependent by nature. Why are more women than men Statists?! Once we really rationally deal with this as women, I believe we will become better partners.

Supernova great to hear your input! This is all daring to discuss, between genders and generations, no less Your frankness is very refreshing for me! So glad for the therapist for her F, but what about you dear? On your own, I mean? It will not be easy to express yourself most authentically in front of your girlfriend, I'm afraid, and certain. Sexuality is like hunger, most times when it's healthy once you've eaten you do not think of it obsessively at least until you're hungry again. I think it's natural for her to be uncomfortable with this fetish. It is counter-intuitive to true intimacy, all fetishes are, like all addictions. She wants your most primal instincts to be to please her, not yourself. Whether that's fair or not is beside the point, imho, because it's biology. Food and sex are survival and I think this is why intimacy issues so often play into fetishes. There's a hunger the infant/child is trying to express, and if it gets ignored whatever in the environment will be cast in that light. Our child-rearing advice of the last few decades has been to get the infant to "self-soothe" by "crying it out" -- this leads to intimacy issues emotionally and sexually later in life because one then fears needs will never be met unless we can and do have the pattern instilled to do it our self. Just some further ramblings for now.

Powerful conversation I am so appreciating all the shares, thank you! All around sexuality can be so very hard to unravel. What is clear to me is we don't need to have been sexual abused to understand and react from these experiences--they are in the culture, and so in some way we experience them, whether we make that conscious or not. What this situation brings up for me, aside from the helpful replies before, is "intimacy issues." I don't think it's a good idea to bypass this with discipline or retraining, it's trying to teach you something important that will take some therapy or other self-discovery techniques to uncover. That said, I do think sexual play has its crucial role that is perfectly normal and it's just like any other tool, it can be used many ways, some of them not good. I think when you stop coming to it from a place of judgement more will open up for you on the reasons, then you continue to explore and it gradually falls away, very organically without discipline or harsh intervention. No one's gotten hurt yet, right, so as long as it stays that way, go light on yourself. IMHO!

I haven't noticed a Topic where we might informally share our more artistic ventures, so I thought I'd start one. The world is influenced through the arts and creativity is a marvelous motivator. Does anyone have any music, art, writing on all topic life, love, philosophy? Dare to Share! I will lead by example. If it touches you, hurrah, if not, know I'll keep doing it anyway Our Dogwood Trail Beneath a canopy of jade I walk the path Guided by instinct I quack with the ducks I watch the fawns They watch me watching The eagles come with their demands of flesh I wave them away and bang my drums Like a woodpecker I tap out my territory I howl through the night and crow through the day I never dream that time will pass away Beneath a canopy of emerald I walk the path Guided by intention I am the salmon against the current Destiny depends on me The bear on shore hasn’t got a chance I swerve to the side The fool in the Fiat will be the one today Not the threat of a viper’s pit would stop me Mastery morphs into flow The muse comes and goes and comes again But the story never ends Beneath a canopy of amber I walk the path Guided by knowledge I still burn the hours in quest with the ferocity of a lioness I gracefully hold the jackals at bay Having learned to surf the current like a butterfly I feel the air shift as the breeze sweeps from the North The pine needles crushed beneath my feet A jay bolts down and startles me He screeches and when I look back cross-eyed and yell “I do not understand!” he only screeches again and flies away Beneath a canopy of blue I walk the path Guided by faith I confront the turkeys with hardly a squawk My mere presence sends them scattering I laugh as they squabble together Circling then in their warrior’s dance I laugh again If only they could see the sky like I If only they could follow the forms of light that skip between the clouds Like glitter spinning through space and time Particles of fairies or ghosts or cosmic dust Do they also watch me watching? Beneath a canopy of white I walk the path Guided by wisdom The turkeys have established their pecking order The ducks shake under the fountain The fawns graze absentmindedly right in front of me But the dogs then bark and scare them away I don’t mind though We will live to see one more day Before the light fades and the sky turns gray The stars come out and call me near The chirping of invisible life sonorously surrounds The scent of eucalyptus drifts before the final sound A glow pierces through the shadows and falls across my breast And in a ray of infinite knowing I lie down and beg the light enchant me I pray the stars play for me the greatest mystery of all things They merrily oblige They sing a festive song as I pass along No more mysteries for you now strident one The ducks the fawns the turkeys are all gone The wind whispers your last words in silence To the gods our Dogwood trail moves on.

I was once quite a flirtatious type and I think this is an important topic and I don't think these things change as quickly as the rest of life, so my advanced age should not matter so much So imho, a good guiding factor in all things sexual relatedness is to not forget "men set the pace, women set the boundaries" It sounds old-fashioned maybe, but our instincts do not evolve so quickly. That means that touching by a man should follow her lead, and once she touches you, even in this joking way, unless she is a buddy and already attached, that's an invitation for sure. If you're not interested in her, could that be why you sometimes feel a mild "recoil mechanism"? If you are, here's the point you'd want to make it obvious by asking her out on a real date. I don't think it's wise to become chummy with a woman if you are primarily interested in a romantic relationship. Flirting is fun for it's own sake, but remaining in that state with someone eternally while waiting for him to make a real move will send an unsavory message, again, my opinion. Either he's wishy-washy, not dynamic, lacks courage, or not interested. All not good and she writes him off in her head. In my 20s I had a wealthy French boyfriend with a very stylish and sophisticated mother who wanted us to marry and gave me some advice I hated and thought I'd rail against just for the sheer annoyance it brought me, for a decade. She said "To make a good marriage the man needs to love the woman more than she loves him." I think now finally I understand what she meant, it's a question of attachment. The woman will always find it easier to "attach" herself in partnership than a man will, so there needs to be significant pull for him, and this is why women should not ask men out. Just some thoughts, welcoming rebuttal

Hi I hope you are feeling better and I wanted to send some words of support. I'm not a therapist but I do have some opinions about them and about what you are asking. I began entirely alone in self-work and continued that way for almost a decade--reading and journaling mostly, experimenting with meditation and self-medicating. The problem with this is not so much that you are "alone" I think, because all self-work is ultimately done alone, no one else has had your experiences or is in your mind/body--it is a very solitary unfolding by necessity--but the problem is when you don't have a support network or any kind of plan or program, then you can "plateau" or even regress so much more easily, I think. The therapist or group keeps you on track but doesn't make it easier or less painful, I don't think. Of course it's always comforting to feel you are not in it alone, but that's really just a superficial comfort. You could get involved with a group online very cheaply, which is what I ended up doing when I really got that I was in over my head. The group I was involved with is led by a therapist and really taught me a lot -- group events were possible, but in California, so I only went once--otherwise it was all online. Having this structure really made a difference--it gave me direction, support, teachings, new ideas and practices--but it was still tough! Do you journal? Is an online group an option for you, or would you rather a face-to-face situation? Just one wee piece of advice: be very wary of free therapy! and be very discerning, there are bad therapists just like there are bad anyone in any career bon courage!

Hi Fireshield My first question would be, how are you paying for uni? Are your folks indifferent in the equation? Could you put off the decision for a year? You sound like a well-grounded and realistic person, but so much is new as a freshman and so much can change in that time--to be able to just think on this question for some time, I think the answer would become clear to you. good luck!

Joelle sending you good wishes and thanks for sharing this story. Your modeling of strength, courage, conviction in this situation and with your potential de-fooing is really powerful--the ripple effect will inspire action and provoke thought in people and in ways you will never know and certainly brings you deeper into your greatest self. Bravo

Thanks so much Emanuel, I've just recently heard of them, definitely looks promising and I'll keep watching how they work!

I really get what a confusing and disempowering time this is for you and am sending healing energy to you in this situation, for whatever that's worth. I just want to say that the best piece of advice I've ever heard in my life, which clearly applies to your conflict: "Secure your own safety mask first." This is just not the time to worry about your brother, as hard as that is to hear. Keep focusing on your desires and needs and act there, when you are safe from this abuse you will have more clarity and strength as how to be a support to others. I know this comes from a stranger and someone not trained in this kind of thing, but I have personal experience, you don't need them, and you can live very well without them, and your brother will learn more through your example than through your suffering. Good luck!

It is very loving of you to take this on with her! I just hope you'll remember that when she reverts back to old ways of being next week. Your patience will be the next loving action, but that's a fine balance, of course. You don't want the focus of the relationship to be on her issues, rather than your own, or your needs in future. I really applaud that you refused to take responsibility for her false centers! Good luck!

Have you ever heard of any Intentional Community that was "Atlas Shrugged-based" (or was that Fountainhead)?!