Holo Cene

How do you know fun is the only criteria of value women are seeking? What is a realistic basis for a relationship? What is genuine value for a man?

Im not exactly sure what you are arguing for or against here. Can you clarify your disagreement?

So this argument for the rationality of "cheating", basically stealing in your example, is not an evolutionary advantage. A population of cheaters invariably does itself in as everyone is trying to steal from each other. A population of "selflessness" also does itself in because all it takes is one cheater to do the whole group in. Rather human's have developed a balancing between the two strategies. It always pays to be a cheater, but only if you can get away with it and only if the cheaters don't start taking over a population. Cheaters can only maintain in small numbers in any given population, because as soon as they get too noticeable they get eradicated out of the gene pool. Humans have also evolved sophisticated cheating detection mechanisms to combat the "cheater" and to maximize beneficial relationships. Why is cooperation rational? Because it is extraordinarily successful. This is just the general gist of "game theory" which is thoroughly fascinating and probably what you are looking for in terms of your question.

You are absolutely right, but a lot of men don't see it that way. They do not see it as a mutually beneficial voluntary association. They get angry at things like PUA which is just a response to a distorted reality that creates people who have no idea what they are doing. I'm not saying the NAP is only for PUA, i'm saying that it also applies to PUA. PUA only works because women are voluntarily choosing men who can hone these skill sets that PUA's teach, but essentially any man who wants to interact with women must learn. It's like MGTOW. They rage against the hypergamy and the sluts and the feminists which is completely their prerogative, but ultimately its a facile solution because all that means is that their genes will be wiped out of existence.

Yes, but people fail to see it. PUA is in it's core, just teaching men how to open their eyes.

I bring up the NAP because it is the backbone of any freedom, which also applies to the dating market. I cannot force a woman to like me because I want her to. I must develop a skill set that allows me to become a salesman of my abilities/traits which allows a woman to then freely choose me as a prospective mate. This must occur because one cannot go around forcefully changing women, or going MGTOW which is just a boycott whose ultimate goal is the eradication of hypergamy to a certain extent. The NAP is integral because voluntarism is ultimately at the heart of the issue. When the media can propagandize women in a certain direction (hypergamy) then because the sexual market is voluntary, it will have consequences for dating.

The TS was talking about how men must become "funbags" in order to attract women, which is an "objectification" of men. The problem with this thinking is that it eschews the reality that we live in a world where people have choices, which is exactly related to the NAP. Those choices will always be mediated by self-interest. The way the dating world has evolved has turned it into a type of market place where female hypergamy is queen. This dynamic invariably has shifted the polarity between men and women, and in large part has left men unable to cope. The "alpha" or "douchebag" wins because he plays the game according to the rules. The other men play the game like paraplegic introverts, because they haven't had the education or the courage to begin that learning process. PUA is a bridge in the market that allows men to begin that learning process. The fact that we must play to hypergamy and its foibles is another discussion entirely but ultimately extremely involved in the NAP since propaganda cannot be changed we must work with what is in front of us. Cultural change can only be coerced through control of media, which is control of people. Since that is likely impossible we can only affect the people in our lives as much as we can and within limits as people are mostly resistant to anything rational or logic based. This is the objection to PUA. It is an objection to the female hypergamy and its concomitant moral decay.

The general misunderstanding of PUA is in the original assumption of the virtues involved in male-female relationships. When one has an ideal of how these types of relationships should exist and function one finds fault with anything outside of that definition. You cannot say what is true for one will be true for another so long as it does not violate the NAP. The free market has come up with a solution to the vacuum created by the feminist propaganda machine and the weak, broken men coming out of the grinder into sexual maturity. These men are completely unaware and unprepared for life with the opposite sex. The PUA movement is just men who have taken this vacuum and provided a service. They teach men how to interact with women. That's all. What a person does with it is their prerogative. PUA doesn't violate the NAP, it is actually a model based on incentives which is all that attraction really is.

Howdy, I'm new around these parts, found you folk to be a mite friendly and thought I might set for a bit.

Deeply you have learned that life is not worth living and that everything is worthless, especially yourself. There is horrible misery and pain in every memory that means anything to you. Hollow monsters have scorched your soul because they too live in a world destitute of all hope and gave you themselves, and replicated their destruction inside you. This is why you feel anxiety, because you cannot escape the truth. You do not believe in anything good, not truly, not yet. There is the brightness upon you, you have begun the journey, and it is a wonderful, amazing and powerful journey. You have taken the step through the darkness unending and decided to open your eyes and see the truth. You have lit the torch of your self knowledge and all you see around you is the shambles and the destitution of what your parents have given you, the world that they live in. The shithole they call love. You are at the first step, but are afraid because it is too terrible, How can there be redemption? This is the beginning of love. When you can love yourself even through all of the horror, and through that reach the truth, that you are the light.