Stefan

It has been about 7 months since I started researching and about 3 since I started calling myself an atheist. I am familiar with the introduction to philosophy - it is great - I'll give it another listen. I do not expect to convince anyone. The best I can hope for is that I may sow seeds of doubt that an honest person with integrity will follow up on later (as I did when a great friend of mine whom I respected sowed seeds of doubt). Or, if nothing else, for those that will never deconvert, if it helps them to understand where I am coming from, as long as the conversation is productive I am happy to help them. I know from experience my disbelief will cause them a lot of pain and I do care about them. The materials I was requesting (if anyone has any to offer) were more for the purpose of my own education to bring better phrasings and such to the table. If I do recommend someone read something, it probably wouldn't be that. I already know though that sometimes people start from so many assumptions and do not understand basic terms that it is a whole lot easier to at least send them a short article or something like it to help them understand the idea before continuing the discussion further. One other thing that has already come up a few times is the misconception that belief or disbelief is a choice. I am comfortable handling this one so far - it is simple to point out that if it were so, they should be able to choose to truly believe there is an invisible pink unicorn standing right beside them. Obviously sincere belief or disbelief is not something you control. Thank you for your thoughts, dsayer.

Recently out-of-the-closet atheist here, from a charismatic Christian background (that means dancing, speaking in tongues, literal interpretations of the bible, prophesying, praying for miracles of healing and other sorts). What would you wonderful intelligent skeptics say to someone who tells you they personally know a person who has been raised from the dead by prayer in Jesus' name after being dead for 24 hours, and personally knows someone who had a metal plate that had been surgically implanted in their head show up on an x-ray one week, then completely vanish in the next week's x-ray after it was prayed (also in the name of Jesus) that it would disappear? I mean besides the questions of clarifying who they are, who the doctor was, etc.What would you tell someone who was convinced this had happened? Would you just give up talking to them? I am very curious as this was one of the first things said to me when I came out. Thanks for your thoughts. P.S. I sent out 46 personal emails to people yesterday coming out explaining my journey and reasons for not believing and offered to talk further and discuss it with anyone who was willing. 10 people have already taken me up on it. They are reasonable people outside their faith, and I laid down guidelines that I may ask them to read certain books or articles before we continue our discussion if it is getting repetitive or stuck (which some will), and that I may stop if neither of us is increasing our knowledge, but I already know it is going to be exhausting. I know, I opened myself up to it. ANYWAY, what are some of your favorite sources/books/sites/etc. for atheist materials to refer to, other than the obvious (FDR)? I will probably be able to use anything I can.

Here is my coming out letter. I sent personalized shorter letters to each person with this attached, telling them that I didn't expect them to read this whole thing unless they wanted to try to reconvert me. I came out today to all my very religious family and friends. Thanks, Anna, for your very well-written letter. I drew from it in terms of calm tone and bullet-points for my personal letters. Much love to all you closeted atheists. Stefan

I am in a similar place. I appreciate hearing from everyone else on this. I am planning on writing a letter. I will write a short one, giving a brief summary, then attach a very long one with a lot more detail into the why. I won't ask them to read it unless they feel they need to to understand more, or if they want to try to re-convert me. Thankfully I am financially independent now and I have no fear of any organized shunning.A meeting would not only be awkward and less clear, but just about impossible as I am involved with many different churches and have many other believing friends and relatives I keep in contact with throughout the country. Thank you for sharing your letters. I may refer to them when I am "psyched up" enough to write my own. I would love to hear how it turns out for you, annadios.

I think that is right. Looking back on words given to me and that I received it makes a lot of sense that it was a subconscious part of myself I was accessing. It was always harder for me, as naturally I am more logical (Myers-Briggs type: INTJ), but I had more emotional friends who could access this with more ease, and even see visions of angels and demons and prophetic things as if they were real. There was even a time when we worshipped and most people there saw a "glory cloud" of the holy spirit. Another guy got "drunk in the spirit" and saw all kinds of crazy hallucinatory type stuff. I really believe they genuinely thought they saw these things. Dawkins mentions this a bit in "The God Delusion".With time and practice I was able to access this subconscious more easily. I could still do it now, if I wanted. I don't know if it will be that valuable, but it is at the least interesting. Side note: I can also still speak in "tongues".These words generally had a flair/flavor of the person who received them, which isn't conclusive, but would indicate that it is a part of themselves. For example I once gave a prophecy that someone was being annointed to be like a "private investigator" for God. Sometimes they are able to say things about others general thoughts or emotional states - such as that might be picked up by a subconscious reading non-verbal cues the conscious mind is as aware of.Other confirmaitons come from the fact that there are just a limited number major points in Christianity to talk about. So you can give a word on the fruit of the spirit, and chances are they were recently thinking about that anyway. There's a lot of confirmation bias giving the benefit of the doubt obviously, though words are supposed to be tested in charismatic christianity.I've got all kinds of first and second hand stories of these sorts of things, I wouldn't even know where to start.Hope that helps slake some of your interest, Pepin

Hi All! I have done a lot of exploring, thinking, reading resources on both sides, and testing, and I have been convinced that atheism is true. This is where I got my start. Perhaps this isn't surprising to a community of skeptics (and indeed, things seem so much clearer now), but I was in pretty deep.If you compare religion to drugs, when I hear most former believers' stories compared to mine, it is like I was snorting cocaine and heroin every day in amounts that would give someone who didn't have a tolerance an OD, and gone off that hearing people talk about how they tried marijuana a few times and managed to quit. Yes, both were addictions, and it's a good idea to get off both, but the degree doesn't even compare when you're talking about serious believers compared to nominal Christians. I lead worship frequently, prophecied, spoke in tongues, heard "words from God", prayed for miraculous healing, read the bible and prayed every day. I was completely surrounded by faithful believers. I still am for the most part, though I am changing that bit by bit. I have even felt a few withdrawal syndromes. But I am staying strong. I plan on putting together a huge "coming out" letter as soon as I am up to it. I just wanted to provide you with two resources that were incredibly helpful to me in making my decision. 1. One book I read on the Christian side is "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist". It is probably the best, clearest laid out arguments for a creator God in general and the Christian God in specific, such as they are. There is a genius review, just posted by some guy on the internet that goes through it point by point, and devastates it: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p98.htm2. Another one, if you have charismatic believers who believe in healing like I did, is this documentary, which explains many of the techniques of such healings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JGUFmY9gIE Those and a good amount of more skeptical reading of the Bible were probably the most helpful things in changing my mind.Both of these are I think more effective in that they approach the topic respectfully and with what Christians can see as an "open mind". People listen much better if they feel respected and heard. The God Delusion is a great book, but good luck getting a Christian to read that objectively, unless they've already got their foot in the door like me. This may not work for everyone, but I thought I would share what worked for me in case it helps anyone else out there. Thanks for reading, Stefan (not that one) P.S. I am still looking into secular morality, and I find it to be fascinating. Any recommendations for good works there (aside from UPB)?

Wow, thank you so much for your kind welcomes!Wesley: Thank you for your own story too. I don't mean that I don't like written communication - I email or chat, and read books and such frequently. I mean that the open nature of a forum has more often stressed me out in the past - trying to keep up with it and have a meaningful conversation in that way seems great in theory but unnatural to me in practice somehow. At least that has been my experience the times I have tried out forums in the past. Still it may be worth another try... I doubt after all this time FDR has been around I can bring anything that you haven't heard to the table - we religious nuts are quite common I think - but if I come up with something maybe I'll try posting a question in the forums somewhere or chat with someone in the chatroom - I'll try to search first to make sure I don't just rehash something already talked about if that is the case. I will try to tread carefully but please let me know if I say anything untoward. In any case, my main purpose is to learn without being a bother. I already have some difficult questions raised in my mind that challenge the beliefs I grew up with. It's a little scary, but we'll see where this takes me. Also, I am curious; did anyone who was a Christian on here come from a charismatic/pentecostal background or mostly more liturgical (catholic, orthodox, presbyterian - the more traditional type churches/denominations)? See y'all around!

Ho. In the East Valley here.

I noticed there were a few dead links on the "For our religious friends..." post pinned in the "Introduce Yourself!" section: http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/533-for-our-religious-friends/ I *think* the third one should be http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/Some_Reasons_Why_Humanists_Reject_the_Bible maybe? I can't seem to find anything for the fourth and fifth ones. I don't want to be a bother to anyone, and as this has been untouched for seven years I'm sure it's not a top priority, but just in case. I'm definitely a neophyte when it comes to these things. If anyone has any other particular recommendations to replace those ones, I would be very interested in seeing those. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll learn a lot just reading the 4 that are up. ^_^ Thanks!

Hello everyone, I apologize in advance for the long-winded introduction – I will split it into parts and try to make it interesting and to-the-point for anyone who decides to read it. My Name This is of course a silly section. I am Stefan, and also go by Stef. I prefer my name to be pronounced like most male names ending in an –Dylan, Brian, Nathan, Ryan, Evan, Jonathan, etc. – though many try to call me Stef-ahn. I enjoyed finding a somewhat famous Stefan as there really aren’t many of us. A brief biography I am 25, and grew up in Asia, where my parents were Christian missionaries. I now live in Arizona, where I am an international health insurance salesman, and lead worship at a small charismatic church. I play a number of different instruments, play tabletop games (think Catan and newer), and study Chinese in my spare time. How I got here My parents were neo-conservatives, but growing up, I grew more and more disillusioned with politics, until I hopped on the Ron Paul 2012 bandwagon. He seemed to be a person with a history of integrity and more consistent ideals, but obviously that did not go well in terms of him being elected. While I was looking at some libertarian videos, I saw one of Molyneux giving a good case for a stateless society (basically that any state no matter how small or limited would grow – with an example of the U.S. government quickly becoming the biggest in the world). I was intrigued, so I watched a few of his videos, and have now read most of his books, starting with Practical Anarchy. I find anarcho-capitalism an intriguing, enticing system like I have not encountered anywhere else, and I find myself wishing it could be actually tried within my lifetime. Why I am here Smattered throughout the books I read (and focused on in the one I am reading now - “Against the Gods”) there was a lot tied to atheism and the harm that religion has done. This has coincided with me having a lot of doubts about God in my personal life. Surrounded as I am by friends and family who are passionate believers, I still do not want to run from the truth, whatever that may be. My plans I endeavor to study non-theistic arguments, if not exhaustively, as objectively as possible, as I have never really done before. Stefan Molyneux is a good writer, and seems like a deep thinker, so I am starting with his book, and the links he provided in the “For our religious friends” post. I also intend to personally test my religion for myself. What you can expect from me Much as I enjoy the idea of an intellectual community like this, I honestly have never really liked the communication format of forums. I am mainly joining so I can post a request in “Technical Issues”. I suppose an ulterior motive is to gauge the reaction of members of a community like this to someone in my situation. I am not an argumentative person, I think I am rather mature, and I understand the value of healthy conflict resolution. My main purpose is to learn. If this seems acceptable and I am welcome, perhaps I will make a forum post or two, or try out the chatroom. If not I am happy to disappear without further ado. In any case, thank you all for being committed to liberty and truth. Stefan