OtherOtie

Both impressions are spot on.

I do, very much. I learned a very valuable lesson, which is that what I thought of as an innocuous association eventually came back to cause me a great deal of distress. I was having fun with her in very shallow ways. I enjoyed the physical contact we did have, and enjoyed our mutual flirtation even though I knew it was not a good idea to pursue anything serious with her. What I see in hindsight is that it wasn't worth it, and that there is no such thing as harmless flirtation. Next time when I identify a girl like this I will not indulge in that sort of thing, because of the grief that it has caused me. I believe she met him prior to us establishing that... but her flirting with him started not long after we established it. I believe it was my idea but I did not imagine either of them would do such a thing.

For me the interest was sexual attraction, yes. I am not sure if he would have felt the same way. I assumed he would have. It's difficult for me to figure out why I still care. I think there are two things at play: (1) I am still young and even though I recognize that she's not a good person, my surface level feelings have still fallen for her and so even while I rationally rejected her, my hormones did not (2) I care because my friend seemed to disregard my feelings with his actions and was willing to jeopardize our friendship for an infatuation. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice and sympathy. I guess the only thing to do really is let this heal and learn from the situation.

This is going to be a long story, so let me start at the beginning. Obviously this is all from my perspective, but I'm going to try to outline the events as objectively as I can. Two months ago, I started hanging out and talking to this girl we'll call Beth. I went to the beach with her, I went over her house, and we had a lot of close phone conversations. We were physically intimate in some ways (kissing, touching, holding hands, etc.) and highly flirtatious with one another. No sex or major intimacy because I did not want to engage in any of that at the time, though she did. I think it's fair to say that the trajectory of our relationship was "getting close." We both expressed interest in each other. Somewhere along that trajectory, I introduced her to my best friend. We all play League of Legends, so that's how they met. This was fine for a while. But maybe after a week or so of that, my friend came to me and said that he thinks Beth and he might be flirting with each other, and wanted to know if that's okay. My response was that I did not think it was okay because I perceived it as a major conflict of interest and a threat to our friendship. I wanted us both to cut off all ties with her. Then she convinced us not to cut her off, because she essentially manipulated me into thinking she wasn't flirting with him and that it was all a big misunderstanding. Note that I was not upset that she was flirting with another guy, as we were not exclusive and she was under no obligation to refrain from that. My issue was that she was flirting with my best friend while she was getting close to me and that this was a terrible and inconsiderate idea. Any way, she convinced us not to cut it off with her, so things continued. I advised my friend that neither of us should pursue her, since we both had feelings for her and it would create resentment somewhere along the line. Now there's one thing about this girl that should be known: she's a very, very good manipulator. As I said, she convinced me that the thing with my best friend was a misunderstanding. She would also have conversations with my friend in which she convinced him that she was never flirtatious with me or that she had no feelings for me. This was an obvious lie because she would admit to me many times that she did have feelings for me. Yet whenever my friend inquired about it, she would downplay that reality. Essentially, she seemed to be trying to flirt with both of us simultaneously and get away with it. Another thing about this girl is that she feels that I rejected her. This is partially true. We have had conversations about the prospect of dating, and I basically expressed to her that while I did want to date her and am open to the possibility of it, it probably wouldn't be a good idea in the long run because we have conflicting values and world views. She took this as "I don't want her" -- which isn't true. Now there's a sort of climax coming up. One day, my friend and her had an apparently long conversation where she convinced him that it was okay for them to get close to each other. I was told about this, and again I expressed that it was a bad idea and that it would foster resentment between us. My friend eventually agreed and cut it off with her. She then called me and she and I had a long conversation about what to do about this love triangle situation. In this conversation, several things were established: (1) she and I both have interest in each other, but she felt rejected (2) she was flirting with me in this very conversation and was being overtly sexual and (3) she wasn't going to talk to my best friend anymore. The next day, my friend was feeling very depressed because he had cut it off with her. I did not think this was such a good idea because I didn't want him to be depressed. I wanted the situation to be diffused all around because I saw it as a huge conflict of interest. So he started talking to her again, but the idea was he would avoid to have any intimate conversations (I committed to this as well). Maybe the next day or so, he went over her house and had a "magical" night with her. And then it was decided that they would pursue a relationship with each other. When I expressed to my friend that I felt terribly hurt and betrayed by all of this, he basically told me that he's sorry that I feel that way but he feels very happy and wants to see this to the end. I gave him many good reasons why he is making a terrible decision, such as that this girl is manipulative and has lied to both of us continuously and knowingly put herself in between a best friendship. I told him that the "magic" he experiences with her is something I've experienced with her several times over the course of knowing her. And I asked him how he could be content with this when the girl was trying to have this sort of relationship with two best friends. I found it gross. He apparently did not. I've known my friend for 10+ years and we have been very close over that decade. I feel betrayed and I am a bit jealous and resentful of the whole situation, and he went through with this knowing all of that. I do not know what I should do or how I should feel. I don't know if my feelings are warranted or not. I don't know if I should end my friendship with him out of principle. I just don't know. All I know is that I feel angry, sad, alone, and betrayed, and I feel that his decision to pursue a relationship with this girl will be the downfall of our friendship, because I will always see him as the person who sold out his closest friendship for a girl who he only just met. And not just any girl, but the girl I was getting close to even before he came into the picture. Please help.

Actually I was talking about the iOS Podcast app, not the FDR Podcast app. But I didn't know the former existed, and now I'm using that instead, so it's all good.

Is anyone else having trouble downloading FDR podcasts on the iOS Podcast app? When I download one, it will download, then at the very end it will give me an error and say tap to try again. Tapping does not help. I'm good with all of my other podcasts... Not sure what to do. I can always download them manually but the convenience was nice to have.

Here is an excerpt for you...

Hi all, this is sort of an out of place question, but I'm having trouble remembering the details of something I'm sure Stefan mentioned in the past. It's regarding a communist or Nazi society (I'm sure it's the former) which created a sort of front community that was really well-off in order to disguise the fact that their overall society is poor and impoverished. This was in order to make it look like communism is successful. I'm trying to remember the details of this for a piece of fiction I'm writing, but I can't remember the specifics of what it was about. Does anyone know?

Dunno. Not familiar with the creators, just thought it was interesting.

In the second episode of House of Cards season 3, President Underwood, a democrat, turns on medicare, medicaid, and social security... he tells the poor that they are entitled to nothing. How interesting. This is how Stefan said the narrative would start to be shaped once the economic reality started to set in. Guess House of Cards sees it too.

Well the maintenance is what leads to the civilization of a society. I think most people are good but there are a significant number of bad people which needs to be kept under control. Also, even good people will look for ways to get ahead so we need someone to enforce the rules and make sure everything is kept in order. Oh, I understand. I just said that to get the roleplay ball going.

Alright! Let's try it out. So let me put on my statist hat. I think that the government is necessary for the maintence of a civilized society.

What exactly is so nefarious about this? Oh no! I thought you handwrote it but in fact you did not... how... evil?

It strikes me that most statists (and people in general) will just have this cognitive dissonance and that even though they support the state, they would not support state violence against you in particular. Is anyone who is well versed in this argument interested in doing a roleplay with me where I play the statist? I want to see how the argument handles the positions I have in mind.

Thanks! I had my first session today. It went well, I'm looking forward to more.

It makes me feel more honest with you all. I didn't like not being clear about that. I'm not the most active member of this community anyway, but I post here on occasion and I'm an active FDR listener. I feel more honest being open about what I believe. If some of you think I'm anti-philosophical, an idiot, a fool, or whatever else, that's fine with me. Look, if I'm any or all of those things, I still play an important role for philosophy. Even the guilty have the right to an attorney. I am committed to both Christianity and philosophy. If you think those two are completely incompatible, I am not going to try to change your view on that. At the very least at least Christianity will get a fair defense and you'll know whether it's rational to disregard it. I am actually shocked at the amount of hostility some of you have displayed in this thread. I would expect that from some place like /r/atheism, but not this community. I am glad and thankful that the majority of you have been charitable towards me. I don't really care to debate any one in this thread. Not that I'm not open to a debate, but I've had my fair share of internet arguments and it ends up being frustrating for me, not because I don't enjoy bringing arguments to bear on my world view, but because it ends up being me versus five or more other people talking past one another. I know some of you know what that's like. If you actually want to debate me or question me for honest reasons, please PM me and we can arrange to have a skype conversation or make a new thread with some ground rules. I understand why you would think that but I disagree. This thread really was about coming out. I am immersed in enough Christianity vs atheism (philosophy of religion is sort of my thing) and really don't need much more of it. I will answer your questions but if you want to get into a back and forth about it we can do so privately or make another thread. 1. I don't even know what I am with God. I'm very interested in self knowledge, which is probably the main reason I am attracted to FDR. I'll be honest and say I don't know what I am at this stage in general. just made an appointment with a therapist, so maybe I will have a better answer for you in a year's time (I hope so!) 2. I don't feel that I *need* to believe either way. I am attracted to both world views for different reasons. I'm sure the Catholic church did some damage to me when I was younger, but I didn't spend too much time exposed to religious indoctrination. I'm not saying that there isn't a good answer to your question, I just don't know what it is if it exists. Hope to find that out in therapy. 3. I think that if the Christian God exists, my life has a fundamentally different purpose than if there is no God. If Jesus is God incarnate then my life is fundamentally about knowing him and making him known. If Jesus is some wackjob, or a liar, or a myth, well then I think things become a great deal more relativistic. Not that reality itself becomes relative, but I think *purpose* certainly does. There is a certain freedom in being able to forge your own purpose in a universe which is not endowed by purpose in virtue of its creator's intent. If I were to become an atheist I would have to think a lot more about what it is you asked, but I think for all practical purposes, my life would not change that much. I would still enjoy the things I enjoy (I guess save for the religious things) and I would still pursue philosophy (albeit a different route) and I would still be interested in relationships and self knowledge and all of the things we love here at FDR.

I am very happy to share that I have made an appointment with an IFS therapist! Thanks to Mike who pushed me towards that in a conversations we had a bit ago. And of course thanks to Stef who introduced me to IFS therapy through his mentions of it. I am excited because the conversation we had on the phone made me very optimistic about her competence. I asked her a few questions and she answered them all in a very satisfactory way. I've had a therapist before and she wasn't the greatest help to me, so I'm excited that this one seems exceptional. I will let you all know how it goes. Have you had experience with an IFS therapist?

Not really the latter at all. I was raised Catholic (I'm not catholic anymore) but it was just a sort of formality. My family is not really religious. I don't have many Christian friends either. To answer your first question, they are not inherently believable to me. If all I had was the Old Testament I probably would not believe it. I struggle with a lot of those stories even still. I am particularly stricken and convinced by the historicity of Jesus and it seems inescapable to me that he believed in the OT stories. So given that I am convinced that Jesus was the son of God, I sort of take the Old Testament "on faith" in a "I don't really understand a lot of this stuff but you have enough credibility with me that I'll take your word for it." Does that make sense? Edit: To clarify I don't take the whole of Christianity on faith, I am convinced by arguments regarding Jesus' ressurection and that gives him a lot of credibility with me so I take his word on things that seem less plausible as a result.

Jesus freak thing was also a sort of joke. I believe in both heaven and hell. I believe in the miracles of Jesus. Not sure what I think about Adam and Eve (sorry for copout answer). I think Noah's ark story was probably a local flood.

Yeah, sure.

Sort of a loaded question. I think people will go to hell, but I don't think it's for not believing, I think people go to hell because they reject God. As Stef points out, there are some Christians who think that hell is the separation from God. I count myself as being among those. I think that separation from God is a truly terrible thing but I do not think it's an active torture involving literal burning. I don't want to debate this at the moment (we can do that some other time if you'd like!) but that's my answer if you're truly wondering what I think. No, that's fine. I would not tell them that (prior to a certain age) because first I don't think it's true (I think children who die do not go to hell) and second I don't think it's entirely age appropriate. I don't think it's a death threat as Stefan has put it (though I don't doubt that some religious people have used and phrased it as one) but I also think it's rather inappropriate for children to hear. There are adults who can barely comprehend an eternity of torment (I count myself one of those) so I would not want to burden my child with the thought that they or anyone might suffer for eternity. I would be more comfortable telling my child about the consequences of doing evil in general. I'm mostly kidding about coming out of the closet. I'm not too shy about it but I did feel somewhat awkward being a Christian in a community like this. The speech Stef gave just made me feel more welcome so I thought I'd share. I have lapses in faith all the time and go back and forth frequently about what is true. For the person who said something about finding solace in Christianity, that is only partially true. I find solace in Christianity but it is also a great burden and there are times where I'd rather be an atheist if I could bring myself to believe that there is no God.

That is a good question and one that I've thought about a lot. It would be one I'd think much more about when that time approaches. On one hand I believe that there is a God and I want to impart the truth as I understand it to my children. On the other hand I do not want to impose my own conclusions on my children where they are sufficiently controversial and have huge world view implications. I suppose I would be inclined to take a "sharing" approach. That is, I would not go out of my way to indoctrinate my children with Christian theology, but it would be inevitable that my child inquires into those particular beliefs. At which point I would offer what I believe (in an age-appropriate fashion) and explain my reasons behind thinking so. If they are curious, I would spend some time conversing about it. I would also strive to create a relationship wherein my child would feel free to disagree with me, especially on important matters, as I wouldn't want them to conform to what I believe out of fear of abandonment. I want my children to be Christians but I believe that if God exists then indoctrination is unnecessary. I would be more concerned with teaching my child how to think so he or she can come to the right conclusions about reality. If the Christian God is at the end of that as I've found Him to be, then my child will arrive there also. If I'm wrong, then they have a better shot at arriving at the truth if I give them the right tools early on. I do know that I think much of the Bible is not age appropriate and I can't see myself imposing those aspects on my child before they could handle them. If I brought them to church (if they wanted to go) I would want to make sure the sermons that they hear are appropriate. Those are some of my thoughts, but I'm not close to being a parent, so I would probably have much more of a refined approach planned out if I saw children in my immediate future.

I know Stef did a review of the movie so I assume some of you have seen it. It's a pretty great film. Book's even better. If anyone is interested in discussing it I am sort of obsessed with this story at the moment.

as a Christian! In one of the recent call in shows Stef made me feel much more safe being a Christian in a heavily atheist community (I know, how ironic). But yeah. I'm one of them Jesus freaks. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

http://www.wired.com/2014/11/teen-brain-shuts-hears-moms-criticism/