MMX2010

I have no experience with this, and fear that my reply may be just dead-wrong, but why can't you just end the relationship by "just ending" the relationship? I picture ending a relationship with a therapist as simply no longer going, and instantly looking for another one. Sorry if that wasn't helpful.

It's FDR podcast number 1826.

The Origins of War in Child Abuse describes in graphic detail the worst abuses against children, and argues that they were practically universally practiced for an appallingly long time. Snippet, "Every child before 1850 should be considered a battered child." So when I read your description above, I think, "[A[]ccording to renegade thinkers Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá, human beings evolved in egalitarian groups that shared food, child care, and, often, sexual partners - in such a cold, callous way that children's needs were never empathetically considered."

Brilliant.

Have you thought about talking with Stef on a call-in show about this? Also, if you PM Joel Patterson - http://board.freedomainradio.com/user/13721-joel-patterson/ - I swear he had the exact same issue with Stef, and participated with him in a call-in show about it. (I just can't remember which call-in show that was, and I figure Joel will have a much better idea.)

I don't have any fetishes, but I wanted to say that I like this conversation very much, and am proud of the honesty / openness displayed in it.

There was a Twilight Zone episode wherein a highly cynical man truly believed that the world would be a better place if everyone were like him. And the only quote I remember from him was, "Everywhere, surrounded by people. But why call them people, when people are pigs?" I would like to warn you in advance that the book I recommended is truly stomach turning. (Lians said in the chat window, "That book is very good at making it difficult to enjoy meals.") I have a highly strong stomach, and I found it difficult to get through a lot of that book. Also, (at the very bottom), http://freedomainradio.com/FreeBooks.aspx contains Stef reading this book aloud. If you're scared of the stomach-turning contents, Chapter 9 (Bipolar Christianity) isn't nearly as horrific, and it's really interesting because it centers around Christianity. Lastly, what did you think of Sex at Dawn?

Ironically, I stumbled across this podcast just now, wherein Stef models an apology from father to daughter. Hope you find it interesting / helpful.

*self facepalm* I didn't even see that; thanks for mentioning it.

In the most recent call-in show, FDR 2665, the last caller, melesina, did a very good job of accepting fault for her bad parenting decisions. Her heartbreak, sorrow, remorse, and honesty were bare minimum reactions of what I would accept from my parents. As usual, I don't expect my father to act that way.

Keep making these, Saarl. Thanks so much for doing so.

I feel bad that I can't better direct you to that particular podcast. Ever since joining "the conversation" in December, I've listened to so many call-in shows that they all have blended together. My best guess is to start with the most-recent call-in shows and work backwards: I'm 90% certain that the podcast is a call-in show whose number is higher than FDR2297. When I heard it, my heart also ached. But then I combined the heartache with something Stef said in another podcast, "Waiting for an apology from sadistic abusers is like waiting for the bus in the middle of the desert: it's a total waste of time." From there, I've had perfect clarity about my father - regardless of how painful that clarity was to achieve.

I haven't read that book, unfortunately, so I can't comment on what is in it. But have you read The Origins of War in Child Abuse by Lloyd DeMause? Ever since I've read it, I can't take seriously any evolutionary argument which says, "Human beings have this collective personality trait, X, because it helps them take care of their children."

An aborted FDR question is one which you wanted to ask Stef during a call-in show, but decided not to. I would like to know which of these you had, and why you decided to "abort" it. Mine was: "Stef, I've read Alice Miller's work, and I truly believe that I can achieve self-knowledge without the use of therapy. Is this reasonable, or is it just an intellectual defense mechanism?" And I aborted it because, after listening to enough podcasts, I realized just how much of my feelings that I repress - which makes my above belief an intellectual defense mechanism.

How do you know this?

My best friend divorced her husband, who was making her crazy. Long after the divorce, he would still email her. She and I agreed that she would automatically forward those messages to me, and I would relate to her only the most-important, business-related information to her. So a crazy, seven-page story would be reduced to, "He needs you to mail document X to the lawyer by Friday."

I think it was a call-in show released within the last month or two. That modeled apology was so powerful, because Stef showed us what Justice really is, and what it would feel like to actually receive it. (Naturally, the majority of our parents won't give it to us, but we all have to live with that - and be happy for the rare few on here who have awesome parents.)

Seconded. Great video, Kevin.

Have you heard Stef model a sincere apology from abusive parent to adult child? I wish I remember which conversations they were in, but the first time I heard them I just bawled my eyes out. He uses a five minute rant that goes something like this, "I'm truly sorry for any and all negative experiences you went through as a child. I take 100% responsibility for all of those negative experiences. I'm sorry that I didn't live up to my one and only duty: to protect you and ensure that you feel loved and cared for. I am also sorry that you are coming to me instead of me coming to you, because as your parent it's my job to bring up my bad parenting voluntarily, rather than waiting for you to bring it to me. I am sorry that I never sought therapy to understand how negative my own childhood experiences were before you were born. I'm sorry for not preparing as best I could to raise you properly." (There's more; I just can't remember.) I ask you about those rants because I can't imagine my father ever saying something like that. So I know that closure, involving my father, involves never talking to him again. But I can imagine my mother saying something like that, although the odds of her doing so are less than 2%. So I know that closure, involving my mother, involves keeping her at a cordial distance, observing for positive signs (such as seeking therapy) but never getting my hopes up until I see those positive signs occurring. I hope that was helpful, or at least not a waste of your time. And I'm glad that you're on your way to healing.

Welcome, Tania. Glad you made it out of socialist hell.

I don't think it's possible to simultaneously tell people what they ought to do and claim that you're not saying they're wrong / bad for not doing it, especially while discussing a morally sensitive issue like spanking.

In fairness, you didn't merely say, "I, personally, am merely interested in the green candy." You, instead, implied that the entire forum was wrong / bad for focusing on the fact that the poster brought blue candy.

Doesn't the original post contain both an invalid argument and insults / slander?

Why?

Again, on what evidence do you assume that the OP was "willing to defend his argument in a rational conversation"?