madman

Hi Coleman. Like king Arthur said in the holy grail, run away, run away! I did the forum in the mid eighties at the behest of my na friends. It was a travelling sideshow/ revival that whisks into town, grabs everyone's money that's in a 12 step group, and disappears into the ethers. After reading the other posts I do remember the hard sell/ bullying that went on to get me to get that money so I could go to this absolutely life changing thing. It was basically a sleep deprived boot camp for mystic followers of bill w. The reason they bully is cuz they have no reason to offer. They told me to "imagine the possibility of forgiving the people you hate the most" or something to that effect. I thought for 2 seconds and said that's easy, my parents! So I forgave them with na's and Jesus' blessing and floated out on angels wings. The weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. I arose from the culty water to start my life anew and sin no more. Sorry about all the creepy religious metaphors but it was a creepy experience. I was exploited again. I also paid more than they're charging now. It was all the money in the world to me cuz I was young and poor. They said we don't care how you get it. Steal it if you have to but get that money and come to the show! I went to acoa (adult children of alcoholics) around that time which was brand spankin new. I thought all this childhood stuff is stupid, I'm outta here. I'ts a whole bunch of people belly-achin about the past. I was done with my past cuz I got saved by the forum. Fast forward 3 decades. I listen to Stef and find out I might need therapy. I find out all of my dysfunction has it's roots in my not so wonderful childhood. That same childhood that I had been bragging about since I went to the forum and decided to forgive my abusers so I could love them and hang out with them to make jesus and na happy. Sorry this is so long but I feel too passionate about this topic to be able to leave it alone. If the forum had a face I would like 5 minutes alone with it and a baseball bat. It's not bad that I forgave my abusers. It's bad that I forgave and forgot, meaning I did not process while the abuse was fresh in my mind.

Connection is where it's at. It's the good stuff. It's the only place I find vitality. It's where the fun is. And it's my biggest challenge. He did talk about me plus and that's good cuz it's a terrific waste of time. I've wasted too much of my life playin that game cuz I was not ok with me. The downside of surviving trauma is isolation. My go to when I hurt is to try to fix it myself. Even when I have no idea what it is. As a child I learned don't talk, don't trust, don't feel. As a result I'll act out (to dissociate), and isolate (I'd rather set myself on fire than ask for help or admit that I need help with anything). Then I get depressed cuz I have nobody to connect with. We are social animals. I can't even have fun by myself. I can do things myself that I'm proud of but it hardly counts until I share that with someone. When I'm ok with myself and doing something I enjoy I have vitality to share with others. It's contagious. That's the connection I crave.

I thought it a very good read. I'm not a fan of pharmatherapy at all. If I take a pill to lessen the sting of the lows of daily life I believe it lessens the highs and the rewards of facing my fears and making nice with my emotions. I've been in a funk for a while and I keep hoping that the therapy I've been doing is going to help teach me how to welcome my emotions instead of trying to sweep them under the rug as I've done in the past. I know from listening to Stephan that my subconscious is always trying to help me. When I'm blue I know it's my emotions telling me that something needs fixin. In the past I've used various addictions and denial to make the bad feelings go away (which never works). It's what I've been doing lately. The difference is that I'm aware of it. I'll ask myself if I need to act out and sometimes I decide not to or to a lesser extent or I choose a lesser evil. Or I'll phone a friend. That's hard to do but it really helps. I don't feel like I need to totally run myself into the ground although sometimes I do. If I do I'll try to exercise self care and not self attack. I'll take that as progress. It makes sense that the way out of depression is through it. What am I unhappy with, specifically? It's not just everything. Depression seems like it gangs up on me cuz I do my best to ignore, invalidate, and minimize it. Thereby erasing my self along with my emotions. Erasing is familiar. Trying to make friends with my emotions and hold them lightly is not. That's the hard part is trying to break old habits (I can do this myself) and feeling the fear of facing my emotions and asking them what they're trying to tell me. Thanks for posting this. Your timing is right on. It's heartening to know I'm not the only one who's had trouble with this. G

I love that last paragraph Kevin. Forgiveness has been a club that I'm expected to use on myself. That's super twisted and jumbo creepy. It's sadistic. I'm getting a church flashback...

I don't like the last step. I keep listening to on truth and saying will you forgive me smacks of trust me or love me. it feels skeezy and manipulative. I did this so now you have to do that. it implies obligation. I agree with the first four steps and then the last part where they say "is there anything I can do to make this right?" This is my working understanding of making amends which might be wrong. If I've harmed someone and genuinely ask what can I do then I'm showing empathy instead of saying here's what you have coming to you now take it or leave it. I think it gives both parties a chance to explore what happened and what's really bothering each person. I know I get triggered by things that seem unconnected that require introspection and discussion with someone I can trust to find out what's really driving my emotions. I had a bad time with a friend recently. After talking about it later I found out I triggered her fears of her father's anger and she was triggering my fear of attack from my mother. I would never have guessed it had we not talked about it after the fact.

great question. I've talked to friends about moving to the mountains. my concern of course is where will I then find new friends. I need to be challenged. not because i'm lazy or anything but rather to be my best, to enjoy life fully, to experience vitality. if I have fun by myself does it really count? it doesn't really feel like fun to me. i can have fun by myself but then i need to share that with someone. I need people to share with to get the most out of life. isolation does not bring me happiness. neither does false intimacy or false relationships. I've had those all my life. right now friends fit into a couple of catagories. I have friends who love me and have my back but are on a different path. I have friends who are on a similar path but i'm not sure they're on the same journey. in other words I have friends who say they are after self awareness but i question their ability to be honest cuz they're still practicing magical thinking. friendship has to be reciprocal. it is exploitation otherwise. i believe friendship is a response to virtue as is love. if i am virtuous. otherwise what is called friendship is normally exploitive. always win lose instead of win win just in a tit for tat way. what you said about keeping score. i payed this time so you can pay next. that's tiresome. i listened to your boring blather now you have to listen to mine. as opposed to being really excited to see someone. how bout we see each other when we want, if we want, cuz we want. that's honest. that's freedom. that's invigorating. Stefan taught me life is short. it's my favorite quote and i stole it fair and square. i tell people regularly that life is short and if' i'm not having a wonderful time I've got shit to do. i'm not obligated to maintain any false relationships. no unchosen obligations.

i'm both reading the book and listening to it on mp3. some of the stuff hit's pretty hard and i'll dissociate. then it's better for me to read than to listen so I can reread or put it down and pick up later when i'm less emotional and more open minded. I think the example of rtr with a parent or anyone else of significance in my life is to find out if that person is safe. I think it's an acid test. I have the hardest time not jumping to conclusions and intellectualizing. I do not have examples as to how this can make someone curios. being curious is counterintuitive to me. saying nothing but how I feel is counterintuitive to me. truth tellers get attacked. if I say how I feel nobody can argue that. if I jump to conclusions I think it's a defense mechanism cuz all I was modelled was win lose, moral posturing, framing, and manipulation. i'll jump to conclusions to intellectualize and create sinners. more win lose. don't talk, don't trust, don't feel. rtr starts first with myself. if I can't tell you how I feel then either I don't know or you're not safe to tell or i'm scared of the truth. telling the truth is how I best understand the truth. if I tell you how I feel I immediately see if it seems crazy or not. if it's true or not. if i'm hedging my bets with fog or partial disclosure or downright lies. facing my feelings is hard work. telling them to someone is risky. especially if that person isn't safe. i'm finding out who's safe by speaking my truth and trusting my gut to tell me who's not safe. if i'm under attack from a stranger I don't rtr with them. I know from the podcasts that a lot of people have had trouble with rtr. it's scary stuff. I read something yesterday that said when I want to act out it's my job to feel the feelings that are driving that urge to self destruct. lately I've wanted to act out. I asked myself what it was I didn't want to feel. shame, fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, rage, loneliness, fear, pain, depression, guilt. I told my friend I wanted to act out. then I went to her house to "fix her water heater". I didn't act out. today we talked about it. she felt the same but values me as a friend more. we talked about using others to manage our anxiety, loneliness, low self esteem. this is the closest I think I've come to rtr.

hi Dermot. how did you do? typically i'll hunker in the bunker but the isolation freaks me out. then it's a self attack free for all. then i'm so irritated that i'm ready to fight and not safe to leave the house. what were your emotions. did you have time to process them? if i get triggered it can take me a couple days just to come back to my body. seems like the more it happens the less time it takes. what's workin best for me is to phone a friend. that's what really saved my ass this December. i'd rather set myself on fire than ask anybody for anything. i called people when i was jammed up instead of trying to work it out myself. sometimes i'll get epiphanies when i talk to my friends. or i'll just get grounded. i got triggered by my ex so i called another friend that i knew was safe and i said tell me that you love me cuz i just talked to my ex and i'm not feelin it right now. i needed some support and was shakin when i asked for it. that was something i just couldn't do by myself.

i cried when you wrote that part about that virtuous somebody. talk about mixed emotions. it felt like an emotional avalanche. i'm still learning how to post so thanks for your responses and your patience.

I saw a couple of threads regarding this problem. one was close to helping me. this makes me crazy as I learned how to do it a year ago and now I forgot. I clicked on a dialogue box then I clicked quote under the part I wanted to respond to. then I erased everything I didn't want in the quote. then I clicked on preview post to get some options. then I get a quote box with the quote I want but all I can do then is type in it. my post ends up being part of the quote. i'm freakin furious! i'm doubly upset cuz I start a thread and want to reply in real time and don't know how to do it. I need help. this is the only forum I've been on so i'm wildly inexperienced. thanks for your help and your patience, gary

self knowledge was absolutely key. I knew my pitfalls cuz December has been one long groundhog day as I've spent too much of my life avoiding the truth. I had a good idea of what I didn't want to do and who I didn't want to be. then I needed courage and support to try something new like trusting myself. self love instead of self loathing. learning how to ask for what I want (i'd rather set myself on fire) instead of being stuck in learned helplessness and being a victim. self knowledge has earned me choices I never would have imagined

it's all I can do to survive December. I know what doesn't work. I've found a few things that did. I had a really good new years eve. overall this last December was the best I've ever had in my adult life. new years eve I ended up closing a biker bar that's right by my house and having a wonderful time. I did not need to find a new wife or girlfriend or fun buddy to try to manage my anxiety and loneliness. I trusted my gut. I didn't act out. I went there by myself so I could leave whenever I wanted. it was fun dancing so I stayed. I did not pressure myself. I was not on the prowl. I was visible and present and courageous. I stepped outside of my little box. i'm proud of me. I have no wreckage to clean up. no serious depression to get over. no amends to make. I know i'm not the only person that has trouble with the holidays but I haven't seen anyone post about it. i'd love to hear what's working for people. thanx, gary

good job being persistent that your friend get therapy. what a mess. my heart goes out to you and your friend but especially her kids. if evidence has been found on a thumb drive or memory stick or whatever I shouldn't think it won't take long for the husband to get arrested. matter of fact, if that's the case I can't see why he hasn't been arrested already. maybe I read these posts wrong. I would think it's a challenge to get good info out of your friend cuz it's such a touchy subject. if your friend is in w central florida then I would recommend my therapist. she specializes in childhood stuff, works with abused children, has at least 2 other women working for her that work with kids and has been to court on the children's behalf. she's not a lawyer but she knows some of the ins and outs of working with the state. she also understands addiction (including sex addiction)/codependency very well. I would think her perfect whereas my last therapist would be likely worse than bad as he specializes in family counseling. his office is covered with pics of his happy family. he's a big champion of the foo so he would likely push her to stand by her man as it's the Christian thing to do. I've heard him touted as the best therapist around. the very first thing my current therapist would do is work on the kids' safety. if this guy's a perp and it sounds like he is then the kids are certainly at risk. this puts your friend in a spot cuz now that she's confided in you she will eventually realize she is ultimately responsible for the welfare of her children. she can cry foul all she wants but sooner or later she will realize. I wish you all the best. let me know if you want contact info for your friend, gary

http://www.na.org/meetingsearch/ if i got the link right they show like 74 meetings in columbus. have you tried na meetings yet? if you're an athiest the god part really sucks. i'm struggling with that right now going to alanon meetings. the good news is you can meet people that are committed to finding out how to live without getting high. nobody knows how to do it or what that even looks like when they start going to meetings so people who have learned are sympathetic to that problem. what do ya do if you're not gettin high? it's a damn good question. the best meetings are after the meetings. it's real easy to go there and not get noticed if you don't say anything. especially if you haul ass right after the meeting closes. if you ask around you might find that people are going out for coffee after the meeting which is crazy if it's an 8 oclock meeting. it depends on the meeting you're at and dumb luck. i went to one morning meeting and went to lunch afterwards. everyone talked about stupid stuff. then i went to another one and 2 guys stopped for lunch and i grilled them while we ate. i finally got a couple of questions answered. i've been going to alanon for about 3 weeks now and i got some numbers but i haven't called anyone yet. at least i got a little face time after the meetings to ask some questions. alanon and na use the same format. most of the meetings you sit around a table and everybody gets to share if they want. one person leads it and can say something after you talk if they want. if you go there and say you're new you should get some attention. come early and leave late is an old saying. that way you can say you're new and if the person isn't an ass they should help you understand what's goin on with the meeting. if you leave late you can ask questions afterward. you don't get a chance to talk back and forth when you share so you can ask questions if you want but you might not get any answers. you can pick up literature to read and you can buy a big book if you want. you can get the hotline number off the website and call them with questions. i was 23 when i first went to na. i tried aa first but those guys were too old and too lame. na was the real deal. i got my very best friends there. from what you wrote it's not so much what happened to you as what didn't. i didn't know what win win was till stephan talked about it. i didn't know what negotiation was. i acted tough so people would leave me alone. but i didn't like bein alone. i wanted love but didn't think i deserved it. i had no idea how to ask for anything i needed. i'd rather set myself on fire. mom told me i was no good cuz i was gettin baked every day. there's still a part of me that believes her. i was ignored as a child so i learned to ignore myself. brain in a vat cracked me up. i think of that brain sitting on a chair in group on ugly people. that's me. i've supressed my emotions for so long i don't know what they are. i live in my head. i used to smoke just to make myself stupid enough to talk to the people around me. i gotta think weed is keepin you down. it's keepin you stuck. it's keepin you from learnin some new tricks. some stuff you want but are afraid to ask for. weed don't make you brave it just makes excuses. let me know if i can help, gary