Wiltin

I've discussed atheism with several Christians I know, including two of my brothers. A common question that comes back at me is "what if you're wrong?" My reply has normally been along the lines of, "I'll take responsibility for my life, if I'm wrong then so be it." However, after some further thought, I think it is important to understand what motivates the question. For those who believe in hell, being wrong on the question of god means you're screwed. Pascal's wager comes into play for many people, and one of my brothers actually said words to the effect: 'If I'm wrong then what? I live a happy life and die, no real consequence. If you're wrong, well then you'll face judgement and potentially eternal suffering.' The implication is that you should hedge your bets and believe, just in case. This is, of course, a face-palm situation, but after some thought I'd like to just share what I think is a better answer to the original question. Q: "What if you're wrong?" A: "What are you afraid of?" Exposing the fear behind the question will likely lead immediately to a defensive stance. Most, if not all, people who believe are motivated by emotion, so engaging those emotions is necessary in order to have any impact. I recall Stefan Molyneux saying people cannot be reasoned out of a position they weren't reasoned into. So where reason fails, my thought then is that engaging the emotions might have some effect. From here, the conversation could basically go anywhere but I think there are two lines: 1. Believer denies being afraid, "I'm not afraid, what are you talking about?" In this case remind him, "the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom," and "do not fear those who can kill the body and not the soul, fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell" (typing this quickly I'll put in scripture reference later if people want them). If that doesn't work, then make the obvious connection for him, "you aren't afraid of being sent to hell?" At this point whether he accepts that he is afraid or not is irrelevant, you've made the important point and connected the dots, so even if he ends the conversation he will come to a challenging conclusion later on if he thinks back over it. Once he accepts that he is afraid, provided he hasn't ended the conversation then: 2. Believer accepts he is afraid of god, "Yes I fear God, as should you." Now is the point where you might make a moral argument against the god concept, stating that threats of violence and coercion are immoral. Perhaps tell him that he has been manipulated, and that fear leads to irrationality. The original question "what if you're wrong?" is a sign of stockholm syndrome, or the uncle tom epithet. It reminds me of Theon Grayjoy in Game of Thrones and his relationship to his torturer, his fear of 'master' caused him to resist when he had the opportunity to be rescued by his sister. I think it is important to show empathy, most Christians have buried their fear so deep that they no longer remember it. I recently reconnected to my fear of God and hell from childhood and it wasn't pleasant. I hope someone finds this helpful. Best regards, Josh

Wow, you're insufferable.

If you brought the idea up with an adult child and were able to come up with an arrangement that worked for everyone, then great. Planning in this way before the child is even born is madness, I think it should be the least of your concerns before becoming a parent. You need resources for your retirement regardless. I know this is probably not what you're suggesting, but bludging off your adult children is undignified and will make them resent you.

Still with the loaded questions? I gave you a pleasant way out of this conversation with this post: Then I gave you the reasonable option of just letting it be for the sake of remaining respectful when I said: Then I explicitly told you that I didn't want to continue this conversation when I said: This is no longer about me dsayers, it's about you. How can I help?

Hi Poet, I'm also new to this forum, but Welcome nonetheless! Could you go into more detail about your Bitcoin project?

I'll explain why your whole assessment of the situation is wrong and why I'm cutting this conversation off only for the sake of onlookers, I'm not interested in continuing a discussion with you. Peaceful parenting: A survey asking parents if they consider themselves "a peaceful parent" would return a near 100% positive result. "Peaceful parenting" is a vacuous, subjective sound bite. Of course my partner and I are committed to peaceful parenting, what is the alternative? Combative parenting? I deliberately avoided saying we were committed to peaceful parenting because you were obviously referring to a particular parenting methodology put forward by experts, more precisely: a fad parenting model. No we are not committed to a fad parenting model. My partner's parents: They started their family at age 18 and 19 without any planning whatsoever. I had 7.5 years with my partner before she got pregnant, I think I'm in a fine position to judge her personality and stability. There is no parallel. The immorality of government: I said, "I am aware of the immorality of government in principle, but I have not determined if a viable, practical, sustainable alternative is possible in the real world." You said, "Where I was coming from is that the State is immoral is a fairly easy one. To not have views not fully formed or be willing to dispense with the moral consideration for utility's sake is poor methodology. I'm urging you to sort that one out before your child is old enough to understand that daddy missed an easy one." I think you missed an easy one. I'm disappointed that my first interaction here has been a negative. Passive-aggressive statements like this are WEAK, dsayers. No, you approached this thread with a crowbar of resentment looking for a crack to pry open. I appreciate that this kind of forum mostly attracts people with significant personal issues looking for advice, perspective, and encouragement. I have a lot of empathy for the struggles that people face, but I'm not interested in wallowing with disgruntled middle-aged men and deprecating myself to appease their resentment. I'm disappointed that my first interaction here has been a negative one.

I feel like you resent me dsayers, I sniffed it early on in this conversation. I'm sorry if your history or choices have left you feeling like you've fallen behind in the road to a happy family life of your own. I could reply to your latest accusation but I think it will just lead to another, and another. My life isn't perfect but I'm proud of my decisions and I won't be forced into a blame game or self-attack.

Alright, well thanks for the advice. As for my partner's feelings, I don't feel like it is my place to spray them wantonly about on public forums. I don't agree that the only reason her mother is her mother is because her father chose her to be. She would not exist at all had the slightest thing been biochemically different on the night of her conception. Infact, she would not exist at all if a particular blade of grass had grown on the African planes for an antelope to eat, for just enough energy to move within sight of a hunter, for the hunter to kill, for the hunter's child to eat, for the child to survive the winter, for the child to eventually grow up and give birth to one of my partner's ancient ancestors. Your concern for the welfare of my family is noted but this is a public forum and I think I've given a fair overview of my situation for the purposes of our interaction here. I appreciate your interest.

Yes the rainbows and butterflies remark was a stretch, she has what I'd call a child-like enthusiasm and positivity toward life, that I feel protective of. I agree with your point about self knowledge, my partner and I have discussed her past and her relationship with each parent. Her mother is mentally ill and abused severely as a child in and out of various horrific foster home environments. Her mother was abusive mainly toward her other siblings, so she saw plenty of terrible things in her home. She has a positive relationship with her father, which is nice. So not completely devoid of self knowledge, she is very cautious about not repeating the cycle of abuse. To your point about passing on imprecision to my children, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it would be sensible to try to be correct on every issue so that you can pass on those correct views to your children in an inherited fashion. Isn't it more important to be open minded as a parent? Rather than focus on passing on your correct views, instead provide an environment where your children have access to as much information as possible and the freedom to reason for themselves? Nobody is correct on every issue and all things should be subject to question. I'm quite happy to have unformed views and uncertainty in particular areas and I think that in itself is something worth modelling for a child.

I don't find any of the images posted creepy. At one stage I and my 3 brothers were made to kiss both of our parents as well as each other on the lips every night before bed. This lasted only a few months but it sticks in my mind as a very uncomfortable experience for all involved. It was particularly gross to kiss my dad's whiskered mouth and my youngest brother who thought it was hilarious to drench his lips with saliva first. It was an idiotic idea on my parents' part, I think it had to do with trying to teach us to be more affectionate.

We decided we would like to raise children together at some point about 2 years into our relationship. We prioritized first owning a home and one of us having a reasonable secure income so that the other could be a stay at home parent. We also felt at that time that we were too young and we agreed that we would wait until my partner was 25 at minimum. It took us 6 years before we were satisfied that we were ready for our first child. We stopped using contraception and my partner was pregnant 2 weeks later at age 26. We are planning to have 1 more child as a maximum because we want to be able to invest enough into each of them to give them the best chance at success in life. I'm very confident in our prospects and I'm here to learn more.

I was trying to be brief since I was replying from my phone. I think social development in children is important and there are likely a large variety of variables. I think you make a good point about the parents' responsibility to model healthy social behavior. If I were homeschooled by different people, in a different environment, with a larger community around, then I'm sure in that case being homeschooled wouldn't have had a negative impact. My particular homeschooling arrangement was causal, and I'm quite sure of that . I'm not suggesting that I think government is necessary. I am reserving judgement deliberately because I haven't formed political views. My partner's mind is filled with nothing but rainbows and butterflies, she is very happy and has a great personality in all the areas that I think matter for raising children. Generally speaking self knowledge is something people seek in order to mend problems within their life or to better understand the negative impact of their history on their personality, habits, and so on. It is one of my goals in life to ensure that my partner is never put into a position where she needs to do that, because in that case she would be unhappy on some level. I'll reply with regard to our preparation for child rearing a little later, off to work. I'll just say that your tone seems a little condescending, though I realize this may be a misapprehension on my part.

So now that God has been proven to exist, what are Christians supposed to do with the hole in their psyche where they once needed faith? I'd feel a little ripped off, I mean, all that time just believing without proof, struggling to stay loyal to Christian tradition despite a lack of good reason. All the anguished prayers asking for clarity and strength to overcome the deceptive reasoning of satan's puppets. All those times getting up early on a Sunday for church to continually bolster their belief through repetitive hymns and long, boring sermons. All that effort, all that commitment, the steadfast loyalty in the face of reason, the blood, sweat, and tears! All for nothing... now we have 'proof'!? Where is the fun in that!? Where is the struggle!? The character building!? Surely God hasn't forgotten about those who believed before it was cool... before it was proven!? Before it was undeniable fact!? All those scriptures about faith are now completely redundant. What about free will? If God has been proven then we have no choice but to believe... right? Bah, I'm tired. Christianity is ridiculous.

Why specifically do you think tyt and fdr are so directly comparable? I think a better comparison would be tyt and college humor.

Great post! I have personally done some self experimentation to see how various forms of exercise alter my state of mind. Of course, I found that my mood, patience, and sense of well being improves in the hours after exercise. What surprised me though is that raw effort and deliberate exertion seems to be proportional to the amount of benefit I feel to my mental state. Heavy weight lifting where I make fast and hard repetitions or playing a hard game of soccer that requires moments of full exertion are more beneficial than casual weight lifting or slow cardiovascular exercise such as cycling or backyard sport with friends. Maybe it's just me but pushing my body to its limit in a momentary deliberate way makes me feel great.

I'm 30 and I have braces. My teeth were making me self conscious about smiling, my parents couldn't afford braces when I was young, so I got them myself at 29 and I'm due to have them removed next month. I can't wait. All of the problems you identify with yourself are solvable or irrelivent. Eat clean, exercise, respect your body and it will respond. I know you have other concerns, this is just my 2 cents regarding your body image. Take care.

Thanks for sharing your story. I can't offer advice, I'll just say that you should be proud of or bravery and resilience.

Hi dsayers, I'm answering from my phone so excuse me for being brief. I can't say that we as a couple prioritize self knowledge. My partner does not have self knowledge, no, but she is the happiest person I know and has a fantastic personality. We have committed to not spanking but that is all so far, I realise peaceful parenting commonly extends further than that. Regardless who or what is precisely responsible for social development in children, I was very social at a young age while in school, I was homeschooled for 4 years, on returning to school I was entirely withdrawn and incapable of normal social behavior. Perhaps I should have said human behavior rather than nature. I agree, unhindered human nature is impressive. I think self ownership is a fine thing, I am aware of the immorality of government in principle, but I have not determined if a viable, practical, sustainable alternative is possible in the real world. If you are interested in more detail on domething specific please ask.

I'm new to the forum community here. I'm a 30 year old guy with a partner of 9 years, we've recently had our first child, a now 8 month old girl. I have found the content on Freedomain Radio very helpful and I'm interested in learning and interacting here. For those who are interested I'll give an overview of my life: I am a New Zealander, raised in a somewhat fundamentalist Christian home. I am the second of 4 boys all very close in age. I was home-schooled for 4 years between the age of 9 and 13 under the ACE curriculum (accelerated christian education). I returned to public schooling at the second year of high school, a year ahead of my age, my brothers were also placed a year ahead respectively. After being isolated at home for so long with very little contact with other children my age I was significantly behind in social development and remained an outsider all through high school. I got my first job when I was 14 working as a cashier after school and weekends. My parents divorced when I was close to 15 and I was given the option to live with either my mother or father. I initially chose to live with my father but it ended up that I and my older brother was sent to live with my grandmother on my father's side instead. I felt unsatisfied with Christianity at this time and became involved with Jehovah's Witnesses because of a crush I had on a girl at school. I ended up moving out into a flat with two (25 and 40+ years old) JW guys at 17 and becoming heavily involved with door to door ministry. I was baptized when I was 19, but by the time I was 20 I had completely separated myself from the organization and essentially considered myself an agnostic. I was depressed throughout my early to mid 20s. I moved into a student hostel at 21, jumped from job to job about every 6 months, working mostly as a laborer in forestry and a little security and customer service. I met my now partner when I was 21 at the student hostel, we moved in together and in 2007 we moved to Australia where we are very happy together. I now work in the parasitic public sector as a comfortably paid bus driver in Brisbane. In the last couple of years I've graduated from agnosticism to atheism. I enjoy playing video games for entertainment and I train and play soccer for an amateur club team every week. Since leaving religion behind I've had an interest in philosophy. I have no very close friends besides my partner, I'm very suspicious and skeptical of most people, I don't have a very high view of human nature. I consider myself a realist and a very principled person. I keep in touch with my family but am no longer particularly close with them. My political views are not yet fully formed. My partner and daughter are my joy and my biggest concern in life. I look forward to interacting with you all.Best Regards, Josh