Sean V
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Posts posted by Sean V
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Going inside of your own head to cure what you believe to be a narcissistic problem is the worst idea ever.
The root cause of narcissism is that narcissists eternally dwell in their own heads and don't genuinely care what's inside other peoples' heads.
Shea's concerned about being "narcissistic" in conversations. Since he's concerned about how much he talks and wishes to change I think he's not a narcissist by definition but I could be wrong about the definition of narcissism. Being concerned about how much you talk around others demonstrates that you empathize with people who don't get to talk in conversations. Am I right about this?
And I think eternally dwelling in your own head is more likely a symptom of something deeper and not the cause of narcissism. The cause would be whatever bad situation or childhood experience made the narcissism a necessary coping mechanism. This is all based on stuff I've read and my own observations of my mind i'm not a psychologist or anything.
He's talking about an impulse to talk which prevents him from listening effectively. This probably means that impulse is reacting to some underlying negative feeling or anxiety that he would feel if he didn't talk. If the reason for that anxiety was made explicit he would be able to better understand it and correct it. I trust that he can handle going inside his own head without it being "the worst idea ever". Since he's on a self knowledge message board I assume he's already done this to some degree and is willing to do more of it.
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You could try exploring the reason behind the impulse to talk which is most likely unconscious.
So you could have an underlying belief that goes something like..."When I don't talk nobody notices me and I fade into oblivion therefor I must talk whenever possible in order to be seen and heard"
These beliefs usually get formed in childhood and they could come from specific situations or experiences in your past.
One way to uncover unconscious stuff is to do sentence completion exercises such as "if I listened more intently to others without speaking I would...." and then just rattle off a bunch completions without thinking about it too much. Or you could imagine a situation where you don't interject so much with your own thoughts and notice how it makes you feel. Is it anxiety or fear?
Once you've uncovered the reasoning behind the impulse you can try talking to that part of you that holds the beliefs that compel you to talk a lot. You can try listening to, addressing its concerns, and reassure that part of you that nothing negative will happen if you give the other person time to talk while listening intently to what they have to say. From there you would basically just debunk the underlying belief while being empathetic with yourself.
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Here are my thoughts Austin,
On one hand you are on your own when it comes to self knowledge and the spreading of philosophy. Somebody cannot do these things for you. Yet when things get tough you may need someone to help you out.
I think the fact that you felt a burning sensation on your back from the ants is very significant. Our backs are a place on our body that we cannot reach on our own. We need help from somebody else. Someone else needs to step in to knock these fire ants off of you. This is why we say "I got your back" to our friends. The back is vulnerable.
I think your subconscious could be telling you that you may need help from somebody else when self knowledge or the spread of philosophy get challenging.
Do you have people in your life who have your back when things get challenging? Or have you experienced any difficult challenges lately that you felt like you could have used some help with?
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I'm a bit of a novice in both fields so this isn't something I can do perfectly just yet.
Keeping that in mind here is how I think it would go.
Coherence therapy could be more aptly called "The process to trigger a disruption and rewriting of memories".
This is mentioned in the end of Ecker's presentation of how the steps in Coherence Therapy can be plugged into many therapies which are similar. IFS, EMDR, Hakomi, Focusing, EFT, ACT (affect centered). These are all known as experiential therapies. They tend to have a guiding philosophy of the emotional re-experience of feelings rather than examining the cognitive components of beliefs. They also tend to be non-counteractive, which is integral in Coherence, of believing your feelings/behaviors have an emotionally compelling reason to exist. So rather than fight your behaviors or feelings you seek to understand them.
The process in Coherence therapy can be translated into all these different therapies. In IFS I believe it would be phrased as a way of negotiating between your parts. You do not fight your firefighters/protectors who are presenting problematic symptoms (overeating, depression etc.). You say "I bet you are doing this for an emotionally compelling reason, lets explore etc.". This will lead you to the harmed part the protector is trying to protect, I believe these are called exiles. This is the part which is generating the need for the problematic behavior. Often we'll find that someone overeats for an example because it is the only way they can feel safe or loved, and without this symptom they feel horrible and unable to be comforted.
So in a sense IFS can be a method of learning about these different parts and exploring different aspects of yourself.
But Coherence therapy would be the model/method by which you transform harmed parts of yourself and no longer need the problematic behaviors from the protectors. Coherence therapy is a methodology of change, but not necessarily a protracted exploration of your history or philosophical exploration of beliefs.
I believe Coherence therapy is intended to be the process by which you unburden your exiled part. I believe IFS can be more useful as a way of identify parts and self exploration, whereas coherence will be the methodology of change/unburdening.
I hope this makes sense. It isn't very well put together just yet as I'm a bit rusty on these things. If you are familiar with Jay Earley...https://selftherapyjourney.com/Pattern/Beginning/Who_We_Are.aspx One of the fellows he works with does a combination of IFS and Coherence therapy (along with other experiential therapies). I'm sure there are a lot of therapists who work with both and could explain their process quite well. I just need to do some digging to find them
Eh Steve,
I got Dr. Eckers book in the mail recently and have been skimming it. So I don't think that the steps of Coherence Therapy can be "plugged into" other therapies necessarily. I think Dr. Ecker's point is that other therapies (the ones he listed) have the same essential steps that make them so effective at memory reconsolidation.
In the case of IFS all the steps are there. 1: The access of implicit parts that hold core beliefs about reality. 2: The transitioning of those parts (from burdened to unburdened or from protector to helper) 3: the acknowledgement and recognition of the unburdened part in its new role which now overwrites the previous, older emotional learning. Another thing you could do is show the part your working on times in your life that contradict that parts beliefs or worries, which is what coherence therapy seems to focus on.
In his book he shows how other therapies activate the memory reconsolidating process in different ways. For example, in AEDP the relationship itself between the therapist and the client is the new experience of secure attachment that overwrites the old emotional learning of insecure attachment. The therapist even acknowledges the relationship itself in a meta sort of way to show the client a juxtaposition between the difference in a secure relationship vs an unhealthy one so that the new relationship can replace or overwrite the old one.
Dr. Ecker also states that a therapist can be creative and use a variety of different methods and techniques in their practice as long as the essential steps of memory reconsolidation are performed, which is why some therapies may use two or more methods in their practice.
hope this helps clear some things up
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I've been loosely studying Coherence Therapy for years but haven't been trained or experienced it personally.
If the effects can be proven empirically (they only have one study out last I checked) this would be a huge deal for psychotherapy.
My current plan is to work the framework of Coherence therapy into IFS as a pet project of mine. Basically a way of negotiating with various parts. In the IFS system I'm sure you could redefine the terms within the coherence model to suit the system and possibly enhance the process a tremendous amount.
Here are some more interviews with Ecker if you're interested discussing coherence therapy and memory reconsolidation:
http://shrinkrapradio.com/330-unlocking-the-emotional-brain-with-bruce-ecker-m-a/
He had two interviews with Dr. Van Nuys over at mentalhelp.net on his wise counsel podcast but I guess they are transitioning away from that podcast :/ Can't seem to find the transcripts right now. Edit: The wise counsel podcast interviews of Ecker appear to still be grabbable on iTunes if you want to listen.
It is a very very interesting methodology and I really appreciate that it is more of a framework. He talks about how he formed it by studying his experience with clients and figuring out the days where rapid change happened and then figuring out why. And you can plug it into all kinds of different therapies with similar emotional experiential techniques. It has yet to be proven from a rigorous scientific standpoint but is very very promising in a way I'm not seeing from any other psychotherapy at the moment.
I'm delighted to see it being posted about here, it is fascinating stuff.
Hey,
Thanks for posting those links.
I'd really like to here your thoughts on how to combine both Coherence Therapy and IFS.
From my understanding, the positive changes in IFS come from the unburdening of an exiled part which is something that happens totally inside the person. On the other hand Coherence therapy is about seeking out experiences in the real world that contradict the underlying schema or belief of the individual. Am I right about this? How would you go about reconciling these two?
Thanks
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I think this is exciting.
I've been in and out of therapy for years and I've definitely found the most effective therapies to be some of the ones listed in the video such as IFS and Focusing.
Does anyone have any experience with Coherence Therapy or any of the other ones listed?
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It's even worse than I thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6de28IlbIo
They're going to be on the view
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I decided to make a video about forgiveness after an exchange I had online with some people. They advanced the position you might have guessed: forgive or else you will become a miserable and bitter person.
These are my thoughts on this issue, why I strongly disagree.
Forgiveness
Introduction
I was listening to this guy on YouTube named SpartanLifeCoach who’s this life coach who talks a lot about narcissism and things like that. He puts out some interesting videos and would recommend his channel if that’s your bag, but he had this video on black sheeps in the family system and why narcissistic parents would want to make one of the children a black sheep. It’s interesting and I won’t repeat his argument here, but there was one thing that he said, and he probably didn’t mean it in the way that I took it, but he said that you can forgive them for just how sad and petty it is to single out that person in the family like that.
But it got me thinking about forgiveness and I made a case in his comment thread as to why you wouldn’t want to forgive them, and arguing that it’s actually a terrible thing to forgive unrepentant and toxic people for harm they’ve done you.
I got some really interesting responses that I think are worth telling you about.
The primary thing that I got back was an argument that goes something like this:
Bitterness is forgiveness withheld, and bitterness infects you like a virus and will eventually erode your body and mind into a hollowed out person. You’ve probably heard it before. It’s this false dilemma: either you forgive people or you become as bad or worse than them.
I think this is a really interesting argument that I want to spend some time exploring.
What is Forgiveness?
I was told that I ought to forgive my parents, and then I will find that freeing. One person called it “letting go”. I’ve always hated that phrase, precisely because of this argument. A couple of people claimed that it gave them a feeling of relief.
It’s propped up as if it’s the mature thing to do. It’s supposed to be like this petty thing that only someone with some displaced issues would do, to “hold a grudge”.
I’m unconvinced. One reason that I’m unconvinced is because people seem to think that forgiveness is chosen.
Forgiveness is not the words “I forgive you”. Forgiveness is a feeling preceded by a judgment about another person, in the same way that I cannot choose to admire someone. I either do or I don’t. It’s my judgment about the other person’s actions, their virtue that provokes any feelings of love, admiration, respect, or forgiveness. The actions that cause in me feelings of forgiveness are acts of restitution. Without someone actually doing something to earn my forgiveness, what does forgiveness really mean?
You might argue then that “okay, you can’t choose the feeling, but you can change your judgment about a situation, thereby creating forgiveness within you”.
A judgment is your beliefs and your values. What do you believe about a situation and how does it line up with your values? That’s what judgment is. If you can change that, then you can provoke forgiveness.
And this is really what people mean when they say they chose to forgive a toxic person. They come up with some kind of excuse or rationalization. “Well, they had an even worse childhood” or “they didn’t know any better”, things that don’t actually matter. Even if it’s an accident, you still have to apologize and make restitution. If I run over your dog, I don’t just get to say “hey, it was an accident, get over it!”
And I don’t know about you, but when I’m trying to have rational values, and true beliefs about the world, I don’t start with a desired effect and then make my beliefs and values fit with that. I don’t think that’s very honest. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it’s enabling and you are becoming complicit in something terrible.
Hatred
One person characterized me as “stewing in hatred” and that I will be in misery while they escape from misery with their magic spell that they call “forgiveness”.
Personally, I don’t understand why there would be anything wrong with feeling an emotion. If I feel hatred, it makes little sense to me to make me out to be wrong or bad because of it. But there is something about hatred specifically that is self-propagating. These people could have chosen any sort of angry emotion, like contempt or indignation or aggravation, but they chose hatred.
I don’t think that hatred is the only logical response to toxic people harming you, but hatred is an interesting emotion. It’s very different from contempt, for example. Contempt includes in it a feeling of repulsion. I don’t want to be anywhere near people that I feel contempt for. But hatred is different. When I feel hatred, I want to get revenge and fuck up their shit. I want to punish the people I hate. You could say that hatred attracts you to the person you hate.
When I realize that I feel hatred for someone, I become skeptical, because I’m an adult and I don’t have to associate with toxic people if I don’t want to and consciously I tell myself that I don’t want to, so the attraction in hatred seems to be in opposition to my values.
So, why would anyone ever feel hatred? Where does hatred make sense? I think hatred makes sense when you can’t really get away from the person you hate. I think hatred makes sense for slaves, and I think it makes sense for children with the people in their lives who they are forced to associate with, from bad parents to bad teachers. They can enact at least some form of vengeance and keep from falling into despair. And hopefully the vengeance, whatever it is, stops that person from ever fucking with you again.
And because I am not a child anymore, if I feel hatred, I wonder if the hatred I feel has been displaced and it’s not being directed at the appropriate target. There were definitely times in my life where hatred made sense for me.
So what then instead of hatred? I think the answer is contempt. Not that you can choose to feel one versus the other. I think rather it comes out of self discovery, “where exactly is the hatred coming from?”
Contempt for toxic people is feeling compassion for their victims. Somebody who beats children provokes in me a bottomless contempt. And the repulsion for people who do that makes me that much more repulsed by any part of myself which would feel tempted to harm a child. Contempt breaks the cycle!
Changing the beliefs and values you hold to assuage toxic people’s guilty consciences, is not breaking the cycle. What you excuse in other people, you excuse also for yourself.
Conclusion
So what about people who don’t or can’t make restitution for the harm they did to you? That’s their problem, not yours. Your integrity is worth a hell of a lot more than their comfort.
It is sad, it’s very disappointing, but you are not in any way obligated to make them feel better for the bad decisions that they made.
If you are going to make sacrifices for people in your life, if you choose to do that, at least have it be for people that actually deserve it. What is your life worth?
Hey Kevin,
Great Video. My therapist, who is emotion focused, explained to me in our first session how emotions are a call to action. So anger is the perception of an injustice being done and the action would be to correct the injustice. As free adults we can leave relationships. I think people who can't leave the relationship (kids) or see the relationship as good or force forgiveness suppress the anger. I think the people who say you are "stewing in hatred" could be projecting some of that hatred in themselves on to you. I really liked the part about how contempt is breaking the cycle because it empathizes with the victim. Thats brilliant.
I also watched some of your "am I growing" videos and I really related to them. I'm trying to pull myself out of a long period of self-erasure and isolation right now and I'm procrastinating the reaching out to others part which I realize must be done.
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Hey stMarkus,
I can really relate to what you are going through.
I recommend you check out some self-therapy resources if you haven't already such as IFS, journaling techniques, and inner child work. They've been really helpful for me. John Bradshaw's stuff is really good especially Homecoming and Healing the Shame that Binds You. I also highly recommend Nathaniel Brandens work. Self-Therapy by Earley is good overview of how to do parts work.
Whats been very helpful for me is being more aware of my body, my emotions, and my needs throughout the day and getting in touch with and listening to the neglected parts of myself. Also reading books on how to heal from trauma and attachment issues.
Try developing a relationship with yourself. Ask your inner kid what he needs. Listen to him. Tell him that you're older now, that you're safe, and that you can help him get his needs met. Give him a hug. Ask the fear parts of you what they are protecting you from etc. Try moving from conclusions to curiosity when dealing with yourself, that's been helpful for me. Hope this somewhat helps.
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Do you mind sharing some specific things that you've done, how it made you feel and other peoples reactions?
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Sounds cool. I can't wait to read your book.
I started IFS therapy recently and some questions that have crossed my mind are...
1. Can parts be accessed at any time, like when I'm driving or walking around outside? Is that recommended?
2. How do I know I'm talking to a part of myself and not some character I invented in my imagination?
3. Whats the best way to get into the headspace where I can access parts? What if I just draw a blank?
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Thanks! I really enjoyed that.
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Thanks for the replies guys,
@Kevin Beal - I'm still a bit of a newbie to IFS. I have a few more chapters to go in Jay Earley's book until I'm finished. But so far I've realized that I have some very serious protectors that numb my emotions and isolate me from other people for my own safety. Some early experiences were so intense for me that they had to be stopped by these protectors. During one of my sessions when I was trying to get in touch with an exile, I felt like I was seeing all these different layers of protectors doing their thing. Like one layer would be a general tenseness in my entire body then I would un-blend from it, ask to be shown what it is protecting me from and then another protector would swoop in and make me foggy or distract me, maybe with a song in my head or something if I was getting too close to an exile without first going through the process of gaining trust I suppose.
A few days ago when reading the part about accessing exiles I felt a kind of breakthrough when I felt like I was able to access an exile. I was witnessing and experiencing some emotions of a younger part of myself that felt very shy and insecure around other people for fear of being teased or made fun of. It felt good to witness it. For the past couple of days I've felt pretty foggy though and have had a hard time accessing parts. I'm also curious to hear other peoples experience with IFS as well.
@Delightful Might - Thanks for the advice. I have some experience with kettle bells and actually own one. I'd like to try hot yoga sometime too, I'm a little worried about passing out though for whatever reason I get dizzy pretty easily in saunas
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Hi FDR Community,
My name is Sean. I'm 26 years old. I'm still living at home in North New Jersey near NYC. I think I discovered FDR about a year ago and I've been an avid listener ever since.
I'm not applying philosophy to my life as much as I think I should be doing or would like to do. For one thing, I'm very isolated. I've seen a few therapists in the past who were a little helpful but not very, and I'm looking for a new one right now. I've bought Jay Earley's book Self Therapy and IFS has already been a very powerful and effective tool for me. I have already had some positive and enlightening experiences with it.
Maybe this would be better suited for another topic, but briefly, when I was in my late teens and early twenties I had some pretty intense and traumatic experiences with drugs. Ever since then I've had great difficulty connecting with people and have isolated myself as a result.
Looking back I don't think I was ever on stable and supportive ground to begin with because of my relationship with my friends and parents. I think my psychological defenses and protectors have mostly taken over and run my life since that period of time.
I'm at a point where I really want to make changes in my life. It's very scary and tough. I want to have more conversations with members of the community and also just work on social skills in general. I've also been thinking about traveling on my own for a little bit.
Anyway, thanks for reading
Sean
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Philosophical Films (must watch!)
in Philosophy
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Synecdoche, New York (2008) is one of my favorite films. A real masterpiece. I'd like to hear some other peoples thoughts on this movies. I saw The Cube a long time ago and don't remember much from it and My Dinner with Andre is in my netflix queue, looks good.