Andrew31

I don't know, by posting in Stef's forum? People around me prove what can be achieved easily by the man with the right mind(for witch he hasn't had to work), even half of it would be very hard for other person without such a mind. I'm talking about 3-4 times different salary in the same sector(programmers).

Yes we all like people of virtue, but blood and money goes to blood and money. She can be a person of highest virtue, but if she's not good for me reproducing and feeding my offspring, she'll only get me as a friend.

I was once so full of hope to achieve these things Stef talks about, but in reality it's sometimes difficult to get it all. For a woman to be cute, virgin and to like me, off course there'll be a catch(the low IQ for example). If she could connect well with other people she'd be married or something. If she had high IQ she'd climb socially(can't do while staying virgin) most likely. So I'm more talking about tradeoffs.

About that work ethic thing, our dad always had work before pleasure attitude and always tried to keep us under load to do things - me and my brother. He always said something witch would translate - work for no reason but don't sit for no reason. I know there are other factors, but both me and my brother have lost respect for him and he is very lazy and unmotivated and I'm trying to find the rock bottom lowest amount of effort that would allow me to make enough money. I'm 26, never had a girlfriend and I'm failing to see what's the point to work hard.

Yes but I'm worried that after being raised with care and attention, when the kids grow up, their opportunities will be much more limited if their IQ's aren't good and they'll just sit at home and be lazy. Will it take several generations marrying smart women to raise their IQ again?

I wonder how viable it is as a reproductive strategy, to marry a woman of less IQ. Today's women with higher IQ appear to want to get highly educated, "realize their potential" and not be too excited about taking care of children. They would also be less interested in "just a good man", e.g. if you can have a virgin cutie(trough less intelligent) interested in you, the higher intelligence woman interested in you would be 30+ years old, with a bunch of life problems, deceased with god knows what rots from the horde of previous man. But will mother with lower IQ kinda doom my direct descendants to an IQ cap in this world where being of high ability is more essential then ever? Yes there are other factors then genetics(Probably one mother will give them more security, the other one be more of a challenge in conversations).

Interesting story. Apparently women want a winner, no matter in what. You seem more in the open minded camp. I'm in the more patriarchal/hypergamous camp. The thought of meeting a nice woman, we are friends, lovers everything is great, just the tiny little detail that she's at the end of her fertility and can't have children angers me quite a lot. I want to give my best(in carrier) and want a brand new nice looking woman. I said "I'd be ok with a woman around 4-5 if she likes me, without the need for her to be very philosophical and intelligent.", and I met a woman kinda like that the day before yesterday. I was attracted when on a beer, but I told her if we get together I'll eventually want to upgrade her for younger, better looking. I'm leaving finding a girlfriend aside for a while. I'll be temporary mgtow till I begin making enough money to live more freely and for the moment, and enjoy outside activities. May be that would be better time to look for a woman.

I want the flexibility to have additional children later in case we begin to have more money. But at least 2 in worst case.

I'm sorry for what you've been trough, when I'm sitting here complaining for lost opportunities of about 5 years. Some people like you and Stef had that moment when they met the person and and from the first moments they had little doubt they've got themselves a good partner and have good time from the beginning. But I'm trying to find a balance between how we'd be fit together and how long it will take me to meet her. Also, finding a personality jewel among 30+ woman, logically should be much easier, then young women. Also let's say there are much more philosophical man then philosophical women. And there are much more women liking going for coffee and experiencing cool things then man. So the latter woman is what in a way fits a philosophical man. So I'd have to be quite lucky to be like you and Stef, specially when I'm 25 and wish for woman around 20. I really want a relationship with young woman with similar sexual experience (near 0) with witch to be able to have a lot of children for the highest period of time possible.

Thank you for your interest in my ass. In Nathaniel Brandon sense, I'd rate my self esteem pretty high (9/10). In dating market value, it's empirically proven I'm tough to sell. If women are shallow and don't give me a chance, I won't be like them. I'll give chances(initiate talk) to 3's I guess.

Before going to dance classes I considered myself 7-8, now may be 6-7. I'd be ok with a woman around 4-5 if she likes me, without the need for her to be very philosophical and intelligent. I've send about 10 messages in a dating site yesterday, haven't had a response so far.

dsayers, what you say brings some bitterness and frustration in me. I've waited 5 years for such a thing, wished for it, now should I try to settle for less or wait more till it happens? I'm really interested, how old are you, what job you have, 1 to 10 how attractive are you and she? Have you had girls before? I'll be thankful for whatever you can tell me in whatever way you'd be comfortable. I just can't imagine a woman would be that much in to philosophy and talking with me. At least not a woman that would like me. I imagine that the man has his philosophy and other uniteresting stuff to her. She has her going to coffees with friends, living in the moment, and shallow stuff.

Nicely said. My facebook is quite a mess and I feel inadequate with such social media sites. Also I'm in eastern Europe, we don't have these anonymous chats. I'm quite impatient with friends and I can't stand talking ordinary stuff. I'm also a bit narcissistic with my brother and don't have patience to talk about gaming and his interests. I feel I need a "friend" with witch our souls and characters in a way naturally add to each other and we are intimate like you can't with any friend. With witch to share household and help each other sexually. And when I look at her to think what a great mother she'll be to our kids. I feel I don't have patience to being a friend with a girl for a long time.

I thought you may be kinda interested in an update. I went to a bunch of dance classes(sum of 5 different groups salsa and swing). Generally they were 50:50 ratio. In a certain club the women were almost all(~30) young and hot. I'd go out with any of them, except a few old ones and one fat. It's quite a contrast how they dance with you, touch you, smile at you and when the class is over they turn to the dressing and it's like they avoid contact with the guys. I asked girls out. I wasn't a creep, but wasn't a player also. Just honesty, straight forwardness and patience. Mostly rejection, girls playing games and felt at times quite down in the bus on my way home. I was specially disgusted by one "social dynamics fox", with witch I talked a few times in the bus. I had one going for coffee with a bit older and meaty woman. At the time I didn't take her seriously, but that "date" is now giving me hope that working woman of some virtue sometimes would consider it luck to find a man with a car, apartment and a decent income who wont cheat easily. For now I won't look for virtue within society's beauty standards. I'm going back to dating sites, I'll look for a woman who'd be my equal in usefulness and with whom I kinda enjoy spending time.

Offcourse Will, I was thinking of going to therapy, becoming as healthy as I can get and then aim for healthy. When I have more money, I think I'll get a car and probably go to dancing classes or Spanish lessons.

I don't know man, it sounds like you want to "tune me". I'm more into more fundamental stuff.

I went to a therapist/sexologist. It took us an hour to barely dig only on the topic of the girlfriend. One of her points is was I'm drawn to trying ways that would get me rejected. Also, that I'm more like focused on trying and doing attempts, and maybe repulsed by what will actually get me a girl. She said I'd be in better position if I let the girl have more space by being more indirect in a club/event or something. She'll be traveling and I won't be able to meet her in a while.

Stef: high quality woman's legs open with reliability, low quality woman's legs open with unreliability. I imagine being myself. If I'm anxious and shaky, then I won't hide it(except if it's to a degree to cause huge unconfortability to a highly likely not interested person). My smartphone is cheap, but I like it that way. My clothes also, a woman who seeks status won't like me. Btw, I'm not too interested in sex itself(at least I feel that way for a while now). Btw the girl from the mall who I thought ignored me wrote me. Told me she has a bf, wouldn't want to talk.

I'd joke whenever would be nice. I only have problem with jokes to push the conversation in a certain way, specially over important stuff. " the common factor in your interactions with women is you" But may be 95% of the women can't handle philosphy. I'm highly philosophical, so they can't hadle me. Unless I become less philosophical, I'm destined to "fail" ~95% of the times. I thought of being less philosophical and being more generic beer commercial guy, but that means rejecting myself. The bitterness of being rejected after you rejected yourself should be immense I feel. MMX, the tone you hold reminds me of crap from my childhood. You've also twisted things witch will take half a page text to untwist. I won't spend time composing a reply. Hey you said my judgement in 15 minutes can't tell much. I knew she wasn't philosophical and now I checked my facebook. I made a nice long message for her this morning, it's been read and I have an ignore. In future if I feel again "she ain't your unicorn jimmy", that's how crappy she probably is.

Hi MMX2010, I agree, do you want to talk to a stranger is quite a meaningless question. I used, Hi I wanted to say hi or I needed to to talk to you when I saw you. And a free opener from the poor helpless victims that are cashiers and such(nowhere to run heh), to whom I only have to tell I'm interested in a talk. 1) I'm interested in knowing if she's interested in talking. How would a joke help me find out? I imagine I can ask, is that exit of the conversation? I'm interested in understanding what she wants, why I'd need ways to ignore it? If she falls for such thing, what kind of person is she? If I were a woman and somebody skips over such an elephant in the room, as I have a boyfriend, I'd be skeptical. 2) Stef said you'll get everyhing you need to know in the first 5 minutes. And I think it's normal within 15 minutes to have an idea if she has a chance to be or more likely not. "Combine those two things together, and my impression of every girl's impression of you is, "He doesn't really like me. He's just doing this whole Game thing because he's angry whenever he's alone." There's no joy to any of your approaches, nor is there any empathy for what she wants and how she feels. " I think youre very wrong here. I told her I dislike the way she talks about schools. (I've just written to her on fb I felt we were not too attracted) I was also very concerned about what she's interested in talking about and how she can get value out of our talk. Also the biggest value I can get out of a girl is an honest talk as I said. I want to know how she feels and what she thinks. Hello, Troubador. No I haven't felt tense or unjoyous. It's the complete opposite. I've never been so calm and curious. As I don't have to manipulate and pretend and I'm having self esteem I think, there are few ways an interaction can hurt me. Only the rude ignore made me feel like a begger for a little.

I've gone to the mall today. Talked to 4 women and one rude ignore. One right from the door gave me flyer. I stopped and asked her, got no. One was also giving flyers of burgers. Went to her, said hi. Told her "I'll wait till these people pass" or something. Asked. Got no. I thought unicorns don't ask second times. I'm moving my ass here and you don't have the balls to accept. But the I thought she might still be worth it. Went back to her, acknoliged it's weird and she's at work. Is she sure? Got I'm taken. Another I'm taken. I got a 15 minute talk and a facebook out of a 9/10. I saw her and immediately thought I have to talk to her. She was very friendly. Seemed interested. We made a talk about our jobs. She impressed me by having decent one. She was interested in me being a programmer. After a while in the talk I felt a voice in my head "she ain't no unicorn Jimmy". She asked about my school. Do you know these annoying people, that tell you they know someone in your school and ask you if you know them. She asked me for 2 guys. Anyway, I saw in her every good characteristic a good woman/wife should have except empathy, sensitivity, curiosity, much honesty and much moral standards. She preferred giving me facebook instead of a phone. I told her I wouldn't have the patience to express myself in a tiny chatbox. She indirectly told me it's my problem. Anyway, she's not important anyway, we may not see each other again. But I see more hope now. Jamz, I've read trough your answers to the 5 questions again. The whole thing looks almost state of the art post from a certain point of view. What I'd criticise is a man of philosophy and self esteem spending time with social life. Where do you find all these virtuous people? Or you have low standards. What value do they provide to you? Second, I see something that looks like a bit too much patience. I believe it's natural for a man to have needs and desires. These are topics I've spend many hours in the past talking with friends. I'm beginning to feel typing posts will take till the end of the year and we'd still have a lot a talk about.

Jamz, I'll use the free time in the weekends to post more. @J. D. Stembal I'm terribly sorry for the circumcision thing. If I were you and I have kids, I wouldn't show them to the grandparents. Let these fuckers never hold a child again. I also erased self-deprecating humor, but went as far as to try to exclude f*ck, as why would something nice to do with the person you love be used as an insult? @MMX2010 The way I see it is that both masters are there for a reason. The fearful one has saved my ass many times and I respect both of them. The idea of getting out of my head and talking to women is interesting. I talked to a girl at the mall. Her table was near mine and I was almost done eating. We looked at each other. She seemed near my age, slightly below my attractiveness expectations. I finished eating, threw the plastic dishes and till she knows it, I'm standing in front of her. Looking at her I think for a moment I don't like her. She doesn't want to look at me but I say hello, would you like to talk to a stranger? She says no thanks. I said ok and walked. I'm on the lookout every time in the bus. The problem is most girls my age are with glasses, bags, makeup, iphones and other crap. There seems to be not much girls near my age who have a decent chance of being virtuous.

MMX2010, I'd say for now what(my values) I want is a good wife and children, good people around me. And helping good people who value truth and virtue. Not typical PUA stuff I suppose. When you talk about inner game and games, it seems distant. I believe you can add interesting material to the topic may be if you comment on places to talk to girls. I'm struggling with evaluating their age well. I don't see much point in trying to master my emotional reactions to things I dont like. Can't I be honest, not master anything and focus on making money? A rational girl should forgive me for that. As for the mini rant, a man's fears and woman's fears are I suppose very different. I suppose the other person must be very empathetic to think beyond the normal and see your fears. RainbowJamz Rethinking what you meant would be quite long for me and I really need to go to bed, but I will look again. I'll think about the idea of support system of virtuous friends. It looks interesting. J.D.Stembal, I'm passionate about really manly/nerdy things like philosophy, and DIY stuff. I don't believe there will be many women in a knife forum meeting.

Because a man of high survival/reproduction value is likely good at manly stuff and not so passionate about gardening. Actually the way I see it, if the woman is of low quality, he may be a heartless monster, he may even be cruel to her, it's ok as long as he brings them resources and provides security. Sorry for putting you in a category please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a thing I see in your posts. Also I'm talking from the point of view of my values - creating a good prospering family. Not living calmly with a soul mate and finding our artistic potential. I'm skeptical with the zen - like attitude. We'll build up, we'll see where it goes from there. First off I'm not sure if we have much time to wait, if we want women who are both fertile and near our age. If you want 2 kids with a woman who's 30, you may have to have the one after another and that's it, no more after that. It took my father 1 year to make a baby with woman who's 29(although she had to go to reproductive doctors also I think). The stay cool and calm attitude wont buy your 3 princesses - your wife and two daughters a big SUV to keep their asses safe in traffic. Won't buy your suns top education and won't buy you moving to another country in case of some emergency. The way I'm feeling it is that nature has made man to have desires and the too much calmness seems a bit artificial to me. "This seems different because she's one of the first few women who've told me about their childhood history without laughing at the traumatic parts." I'd be more concerned who's side she takes - the parent or the child. Also how the things are in my imagination is that the woman shouldn't be less open then me and I shouldn't have to pursue her. I imagine her wanting a man like me from the beginning and being ready to work her ass off in our family. I imagine it, that if I'm too persistent, she'll have grounds to be lazy. In my raising, mostly our father worked and we had to have money for stuff. I'm not sure how would I look at things if I was raised differently.

Thank you for the responses everybody @Troubador At the time I was targeting dysfunction, low self esteem and a narrow range of attractiveness. I didn't have much of a chance to meet such people who'd explain what do they think and feel. I'm not sure ignoring something natural as fear is a good idea. As for the better nature shining forth, I think I'm on the outside pretty much how I'm on the inside. @Rainbow Jamz I'm sure enjoying a hobby can be sexy, but a passionate gardener will probably have lower chance of high survival and reproduction value(even for a virtuous woman) then a passionate IT professional who's there(at a club) just to find a girlfriend and is honest about it. The network of good man can be tough. I have yet to know one in person. I'm sure in this forum I can get better opinions then the least dysfunctional people I can think of. @MMX2010 "Meanwhile, I am 39. I've had girlfriends. I've had one-night-stands. I've had mistresses. I study the least manipulative and most honest PUAs out there." - for my point of view, a time you've not spend in self knowledge and becoming virtuous. Being from a different world, why should my opinion be taken seriousely and I can be wrong. I think we are talking from the point of view of different values. As for not hearing the other man's arguments, my father can't possibly tell me an advice with women, when he hasn't at least admitted his family is broken. @utopian I know this guy, he seems pretty generic. @Rainbow Jamz 1 Why do you want/need a girlfriend? - I may need the experience in order to have nice family. Also my biology and ego may not like marrying the first girl fast and having kid. 2 How soon do you need to have one? - I don't know, but for know I'm developing the exotic idea that I can become less picky and be fine with only going out with women. Being platonic will ensure much less dramatic brake ups. 3 Do you have someone in mind right now? - No 4 What would you like to offer her? - Being with me by itself should be interesting to her. 5 What would you like for her to offer you? - Being honest. This will give me best experience and I imagine it would be very interesting. I feel girls are queens of talking, but not connecting. @Lens I've read NB and have him as a voice in my head. I use man instead of person