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Mike C.

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  1. Mike C.
    Even better than all that might be this LEGAL gold or silver-backed currency (available in the US only): http://popularliberty.com/8671/i-am-divorcing-my-bank-and-so-can-you-conveniently I am gonna get an account here soon as the divorce is done.
  2. Mike C.
    Yeah Stef does. Like, he says that IF you want to build a more fair society, THEN apply and spread the practice of UPB to others. Or something like that. A pragmatic argument, indeed.
  3. Mike C.
    Yeah it's a good course. I am glad you are enjoying it! I think all FDR-ers should check it out.
  4. Mike C.
    I would like an explanation, not of what UPB is (logical rules), but why I should use UPB? How exactly is it needed to "have the happiness and joy of life long term", as you say. That's my question. I want a persuasive argument as to why and when I would use UPB (the logic) in morality. So , with kids (or rational-open-minded people), once they see (because you show them, or explain...) the utility (usefulness) of a concept (like math or UPB) then they will start using it, if it leads to safety and happiness for them. So treat me like a rational-open-minded person, please, and make a persuasive appeal to my self-interests.
  5. Mike C.
    LiberT, that's not a bad definition of UPB/morality. I like how short it is. Sadly it assumes the reader knows the definition of universality (not too hard to look up) and NAP (also can look up, although there are some disagreements about NAP definitions, especially regarding how to determine property rights). But you didn't answer my main question in bold above your post. Why is UPB something everyone should do? What's the goal? What happens if you are immoral according to UPB?
  6. Mike C.
    Well with the caveats, right? 1) Unless the person is in danger and seems to not be aware (blind man crossing the path of a bus) 2) Unless you are defending your person or rightful property (a whole other topic about property right, but whatev) 3) Unless the person is incapable of giving consent but would have done so if able to. (CPR on a passed out person) etc. Right?
  7. Mike C.
    So what's the principle, here? Is it: If one of the involved parties finds the action (such as killing) as "bad" or "distasteful", or however they want to call the action, then the action cannot be deemed as "good" and therefore fails the UPB test? Or is it: If an action is deemed hurtful by one of the affected parties, then the action is "bad" or perhaps "not good"?
  8. Mike C.
    @ Kevin Beal I think you did a pretty good job summing up what UPB is. I also read the book about 2 months ago for the 1st time. Kinda confusing but I think I understood what the argument was. My question is this though: You say UPB is to see what behaviors are "objectively required". I understand that part of the book, but I ask required for what exactly? What is the goal? To avoid being a hypocrite with a double standard, Thus, bettering our society?
  9. Mike C.
    Above, in the Preferability section, it says that UPB is not referring to preferences that are subjective. So, pertaining to ethics, how do we know what human's universally "intended effect" is? ie. To further the human race onward and in a way that maximizes happiness. Some could say that that preference is (although widely shared) also subjective, as some people don't care much about the future of the human race or the majority of people's happiness. I don't know any of these people, but I bet they exist.
  10. Mike C.
    Good question! I hope she will join in the call! She did say she would like to see a couples therapist. I just need to find one that isn't religious. Any suggestions? Anyways, I will let you know what she says about joined the call once I find out the call date.
  11. Mike C.
    I actually didn't notice what sub forum I was in, so my bad. I tried editing my post but I missed that part. Responsible (Meriam Webster def. 3): marked by or involving responsibility or accountability Responsibility: a duty or task that you are required or expected to do I am guessing that's what he meant... Does that help?
  12. Mike C.
    She said morality matters more to everyone than personal preferences because it affects how the individual will treat the other people. Sort of interesting.
  13. Mike C.
    For those interested, I will post the date of the show I get scheduled for here, so go to the top of the page and click "Follow Thread" to get notified.
  14. Mike C.
    Are you referring to the silly illogical arguments that religious people make up? Yeah it's funny how they try to justify what they are doing. I also like making fun of this argument: Me: "How do you know God is real and not just in your head?" Them: "Well I feel Him when I pray to Him." "How do you know that's God and not your unconscious or something like that" "Because I can't fathom how that would be possible. It's gotta be God." "But God is clearly impossible. He is a self-contradictory being..." "Well, I definitely know that it must be God." "Okay, then. I'll leave you alone, then."
  15. Mike C.
    Had to read that a few times to get it, but yes! Haha! Well spoken, good sir.
  16. Mike C.
    Umm... I think people are down voting your posts here because it seems (to me at least) that you asked a question that: 1. Has little to no context. What part of the book was this? 2. Is a question we cannot answer, since we are not the original author of whatever you are quoting. Refer that question to the author (Stefan) or look up different definitions of responsibility and choose the one that fits the argument the best. You got this Hope this general principle helps.
  17. Mike C.
    Update again: We had a pretty decent RTR style talk and she shared some of childhood and such. I gave her lots of empathy. But she didn't want to talk about how she felt about some of the not so fun parts fo her childhood that were related to religion and seemed to wall up there. We had another discussion last night and Same thing happened but this time she got really mad at me and cried when we hit those touchy memories of hers again. She said I was "trying to ask [her] leading questions" but couldn't point out any examples when I asked how. I honestly want to know if I am in the wrong, but I am guessing that it is her delusion. *sigh* I requested to be on the Call-in show, so maybe that will happen.
  18. Mike C.
    Thanks for the advice about thinking about where I can be in a few years. I agree that the future is where my concerns are. No oops babies for us! On a brighter note, she finally started listening to UPB the audio book. So, hopefully we can come to an agreement on that and apply it to parenting. Assuming she finishes that book, which other book should we read together, if any? I was thinking RTR or On Truth: The Tyranny of Illusion... As always, thank you for your candor and empathy. Sorry for the pain you guys went through, Kurtis and J. D.
  19. Mike C.
    Read Real Time Relationships and listen to podcast 70. I am so convinced that indoctrination is wrong (about anything, especially religion and politics) that my wife might divorce me for my strong stance... (we don't have kids, yet)
  20. Mike C.
    I have been listening/reading Stefan's stuff for about 2 months, now. UPB changed my life. I am a Mormon, but am deciding to leave the church. Wife is thinking about divorcing me, which is sad, but she doesn't like me thinking critically about her religion. No kids, so less bad. Overall, I am a happier, more honest and free person because of what I have learned about myself through this show. Still reading RTR. Great book! If anyone is having a hard time with a spouse, feel free to message me.
  21. Mike C.
    Welcome! I am also new. Started investigating this stuff a couple months ago. Read UPB, deciding to leave the Mormon Church. Wife wants to leave me. No kids, though... Still hard, but it's worth being honest with myself and trying to share the message with those who are still curious enough to learn.
  22. Mike C.
    Just as an update: My wife is saying that she is not willing to change her mind about God and that she wants to indoctrinate her future kids by sending them to church, yet says she will not indoctrinate them herself (her parents sent her to church too, instead of doing it themselves). I am losing hope for my marriage. So is she, as she is realizing she can't convince me to change my mind using an appeal to reason.
  23. Mike C.
    I came upon this article and found hope, seeing that others out there in the scientific community are realizing the effects of ignorance. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/the-case-for-teaching-ignorance.html?ref=opinion Do you think that this will grow and help change the world?
  24. Mike C.
    Well, in theory, yes the Mormon faith teaches that our free agency is sacred and important to protect, but it also teaches that "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." So, it sort of contradicts itself: 1. If honoring the law means respecting it, and 2. respecting something means to believe it to be virtuous, and if 3. government is virtuous, and 4. gov't also uses aggression to force it's will/laws upon its citizens 5. and if using force is NOT respecting ones free agency 6. and since the Mormon church teaches its members to be active in voting and such, 7. We must conclude that the LDS (Mormon) church doesn't always respect the agency of others. I think that argument proves that conclusion. But like Jer said just barely, the Mormons have had many bad experiences with the gov't persecuting them. Anyways. Nowadays, most Mormons are republicans = 74%, semi-statist conservatives = 66%, some 20-35% democrats, and maybe 3-10% libertarians (minarchists), from what I have seen and read: http://www.pewforum.org/2012/01/12/mormons-in-america-executive-summary/ http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700214611/Mormons-in-America-Pew-survey-explores-beliefs-attitudes-of-LDS-Church-members.html?pg=all But my wife is slowly becoming more skeptical and disliking towards the state. But she wants to indoctrinate our future kids, instead of humbly share her beliefs as what they are: beliefs. Also she wishes we will all go to church together. She is still figuring out why she wants this. Social stability is probably a factor, as Holo Cene stated.
  25. Mike C.
    @regevdl Thank you for sharing your experience. That brought a lot of clarity to me and has made my marriage less stressful and more peaceful. My wife notices already how I have changed for the better. We still have a hard time understanding each other, but at least our conversations are built on mutual curiosity, now.
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