Elizbaeth

I used to write - before the kids. What do you write? I have a serious love for poetry.

@barn ok I’ll try again. I start out using a passive voice because a woman is set upon a path when she is a child. She is basically just surviving on the environment she is born into. I’m thinking that childhood experiences are critically important, and a person’a childhood has a inextricable effect on the person they grow up to be. I think, for women, the hangup happens because they are biologically primed to have kids around age 18. They basically go from parents to having kids (in evolutionary past) with little to no time in between. Further, women are deeply afraid of breakin from their social circles. Like, deeply deeply afraid, and it’s quite difficult to gain insightful knowledge when you’re emotionally hard-wired to believe and think what the family says. There is a reason that women were treated like larger children in the past. I do think that if a woman is better than that she will act like it and prove it. But there is a strong biological history of a woman basically going from her family of origin to her husband, and then immediately having kids. There is no time in there to unlearn bad behaviors and relearn new ones. Not before she has already had children. {1} - This is just false. Taking away agency, belittling women's responsibility for prior 'having not acted differently but could have' (I sort of guessing it's something similar that happened to you. Am I wrong in my assumption?). I don’t think it’s false. Women really don’t have much time between childhood and prime reproductive abilities. That’s why a woman’s SMV typically peaks and then declines after age 25. And by saying that sometimes it’s too late, I meant that it would be too late for her to have her family. After age 35 a woman is reproducing on prayers and wishes.i also don’t think I’m belittling women. I don’t see an insult to women, or a judgment on women, or any negative interjection about women. I’m trying to argue that these are the reasons why a woman would not grow or learn. I’m just trying to give an account for what really happens and why it happens. I’m not giving an end judgement or taking away the possibility of free agency. And as for me - my actions were as predictable as a clock. It wasn’t until I totally separated myself from my family and all their trappings that I started to even think for myself and get a handle on what was happening. And even then, it wasn’t until my husband refused to enable some of my behaviors that I really faced them. I don’t think I had seen an accurate Murrow of myself until then. So maybe I’m just projecting my own issues into the female gender at large. That’s a possibility.

Wow. Tradcon, damselling, plantation. Listen, @Dr. Dealgood. I’m 100% in agreement that men have been shafted in this current culture. I have not experienced what men experience, but I have a husband who has felt a lot of the current injustices and I have two sons who are going to have to face the world. Their problems are my problems, therefore I’m concerned with you, too. This part I agree with. But I’m a little harsh here. I think the only solution is to take things back 200 years. I wish I could say that we could all grow more enlightened and live in a world of equality and where people are forthright and open and not hiding lazy malevolence in them, but I truly think the majority of people are as bad as that. I think the masses of women have grown indulgent and gluttonous and too divorced from the pain, vulnerability, and desperate terror that can come with childbirth. I think women are lax with their standards for who they reproduce with because they can afford to do so. They don’t see the reality of the costs of children and the extreme danger it puts them in. I think most women would be perfectly happy married off at 18 and having babies for the next 10 years. Women would fix a lot of the problems by simply only having sex with a husband who was good enough to be worth marrying. But this would mean that a woman who wasn’t chaste would also not be worth marrying. And I’m not sure most women would stay chastens unless the consequences were severe. I think men, by their gender-specific personality traits, are the only who are capable of being heroic. And yes. I mean heroic. A hero defeats all odds and battles demons and discovers an amazing strength while fighting foes and is a savior. I consider Stefan to be quite heroic. Men are the heroes because men are less culpable to the mind games of social pressures. We women are typically quite afraid of breaking from the social norm - I’ve felt so very deep anxiety over causing issues with my mother, and disagreeing with her has been one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do. Women like their cliques, and there are reasons for this. It’s built into us to find safety on the herd, and the emotional cost of going against the grain is pretty high. Men are more able to break from a group, more able to think about what is going on and what they should do, and I’m sure that testosterone helps them energetically combat opponents and analytically focus on what steps need to come next. You’d be hard pressed to find a woman who could do all of that well. Men are equipped to be the heroes. Women aren’t. And yes, I do need men to build me stuff, and to buy me stuff. If I had decided not to have children, than no, I do not see why I could not have done all of that for myself. Before I had kids I did buy my own stuff and do my own stuff. But having children radically changes what I’m able to do, and I’m dependent on my husband. We could not exist as a family without his efforts and sacrifice. He is a brave man with big, strong, literal and figurative shoulders, and it would not have been possible without him. But just because I am meeting my need through him does not mean he is not appreciated, loved, and wanted for himself. Just like I met his needs for a fertile parter. He would not have dated me without thinking I could have given him kids and been a faithful partner, but that doesn’t mean he is exploiting me or unappreciative or unable to love me without the sex. And I mean civilization. I mean all the amazing ideas of the centuries and the incredible creations of civilization. It was 99% done by men. Women have been bound by their children, and this has become part of our personalities. We hold down the house and the kids. Men go out and tame the wild and conquer the elements and do heroic stuff and build civilization. Just because feminist have gone insane on the last 60 years doesn’t mean our biology has spontaneously changed, too. Women are, at the end of the day, still women, and men are still men. Men have always been the vanguards of Noble things, and women have been emotional and hate to break with the socially sanctioned behavior. It’s not going to change just because feminists have been trying to tear down things.

Lol. Your posts are always interesting.

Hello! @S1988 Am I speaking with a lady? It is hard to be part of a family if you are a hermit. And I totally understand that it is possible to not hate men or kids and still not feel like that family life is for you. I was trying to categorize the types of women in the reproductive realm. They may indeed not apply to you. Would you want a family, should you figure out how to properly parent yourself?

@barn I’m really sorry. I’m struggling to get a crisp idea of what you’re saying. I think it’s that English isn’t your first language. I have a general idea of what you mean, but I’m afraid the exact idea/line of thinking is lost to me. I thought we were more or less in agreement, but after your last statement I am not so sure. My stance, very simply put, is that people are set out on paths in life. This is not an iron-clad life sentence, but given the female reproductive timeline (and the personality traits that go with it), chances are she must be extraordinarily intelligent and intuitive to realize something is wrong and then fix whatever is wrong within her reproductive time frame. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be accountable. I’m saying it is very unlikely for a woman to start from the path which she was set on. Unlikely and improbable. Let me try to mull over what you’ve said and see if I can get closer to what you meant. By by the way, what is your first language?

Woman are all innately hypergamous. If she claims there is not the least bit of hypergamy in her more animalistic instincts than she’s just lying. But. Women aren’t walking she-apes. Some women have moral compunctions and compassion and values outside of pure animal sex drives. Hypergamy is not as evil as it seems. It just is. It’s only evil when it’s paired with a woman without a conscience. Just like a man desiring youth and fertility is not evil in itself. It’s only evil if he does evil things in the name of youth and fertility. Hypergamy comes out of desperate times. Babies are soooooo demanding. Sometimes I can hardly clean the house (pretty simply stuff) because they’re just too needy. That’s modern times, and I live in a comfortable house with appliances and plenty of food and tons of help. If I had not chosen someone a little older, with a good career and a house and a lot of money already saved, how could I possibly have been able to do my job? Now imagine that there’s no electricity, no ready food amounts, and I have small, demanding, terribly needy creatures that hobble and limit my abilities to go out and provide and protect. My job is to keep danger from them - at cost to me - and to ensure their survival and health and development. I need someone to keep the wolves and the cold away from me, because I’m busy keeping it away from the babies. I need someone to bring me food because I cannot leave these babies to go out and hunt it. The alternative to this arrangement almost always ends in the babies suffering. Hypergamy is as dangerous to men and men’s desire for youth and fertility is dangerous to women. Empathy and life-long, monogamous commitment is the way for both to work together. There really is no other way.

@barn I don’t think we’re necessarily in disagreement. I think that ultimately we agree on the fact that every action has its consequence and every person is, in the end, accountable for their actions. I was only arguing that women have a much shorter time frame because of their biological roles in which to solve some of life’s pressing problems.

I think it is deterministic in a sense. Hear me out. A woman can certainly choose, and often a woman with a very bad upbringing chooses something different; however, a woman has a fairly short biological time frame within which she can start a family. If she has been set out on a bad path from an early age, she has more she has to undo and figure out and set straight before she can be a truly good candidate for a Mom/Wife. She can either have children when biology demands (mind 20’s) or she can wait until she has her head on straight and has all of her stuff together and then find a a man who has done the same. If she started on a very bad path, this could take a loonnnggg time. She could very possibly not be able to have kids by the time she becomes “suitable.” A woman who is raised in a bad family is usually part of the hookup culture and probably hasn’t seen any good relationship patterns in her life. She probably wishes for the perfect relationship but has all the traits that destroy relationships. Relationship-destroying traits have been actually been heavil reinforced in them. They can, and many do, climb out of this, but the short time frame of women’s reproductive capacity puts an urgency to them knowing what is wrong with them, their family of origin, and how that fits into larger social patterns and politics. That’s a tall order, and if a woman graduates from college at the usual age, then she’s basically starting at tremendous negative at age 22, and her peak SMV is only about 3 years away. The average man who graduates from college at age 22 has, what, 10, 20 years to learn proper self-knowledge and figure things out before settling down for a family. I tend to think most single moms fall into this category, btw. So, in the end, people do have the will and choice to choose, but realize that people are set out on paths the moment they’re born, and women have very little time in which to gain awareness and then correct a bad path. Sometimes it’s too late, even if she does learn and realize what is needed.

@barn I have no idea what the majority of women will want concerning families in the future. I see three types of women: 1) those who are raised conservatively and easily step into the role of mother/wife, 2) those who want families, but are raised to have no skills to take care of families or attract a decent man, and 3) those who think men are the devil and children and lichens to suck away their freedom. I would guess that most women now fall into the second catagory - they like the idea of family, but are brought up in such a way that they really are bad choices for mothers and wives. It's sad, really. If they had known certain things when they were younger, or had had a support system to help them, they might have been excellent wives/mothers. But women get trashed pretty quickly from the hookup/party lifestyle, and have only a few short years to figure things out.

Men have not been treated well, and have often been downright abused. Men have all the right to be angry, and to be hurt and whatever else you might actually feel. I didn't say that men should like to save civilization. I didn't say that it was fair or just for men to save civilization. I do, however, think that men are the only ones capable of saving civilization. I believe there are women who feel strongly for civilization, and who care deeply, but unless she is the outlier and the exception, she simply doesn't have the emotional and mental tools available at her disposal to actually be the hero that civilization needs. A woman can never be a man. She can lose her feminine qualities and be a not-woman, but she won't be a man. We need men to be heroic and brave. Not saying they have anything worthwhile to be brave and heroic about. Civilization and society has been very cruel towards men. I'm just saying I don't see how civilization will be saved without men taking charge and saving it.

@Dylan Lawrence Moore @Siegfried von Walheim Thanks guys for your advice and words. @Dylan Lawrence Moore I find your health advice pretty useful. I do enjoy living healthy and think that maintaining health is more valuable than most medicine. I got into nutrition in my teenage years. I had some pretty extreme cystic acne, and the only thing that worked was a radical change in my diet and lifestyle. I rarely wear more makeup than undereye concealer (I rarely get good sleep so I almost always have dark circles under my eyes). My husband thinks I've very physically attractive, even though he sees me in sweats and no makeup 95% of the time. I just get this large overwhelming anxiety at times about my appearance. I know it's from my family. There are lots of eating disorders in the every woman in my mother's family, and it's just a very deep problem that they all sort of pass around to each other and no one ever gets better. If I'm happy, well-rested, and therefore thinking clearly, I feel ridiculous for even having these anxieties, but when they flare up they are fierce. I certainly look fine, and even if I were to be 60 years old, I should be happy to be healthy and then leave it at that. You have wonderful advice. Thank you. Well, what I meant by "vanity" is the disproportionate value in something that is, ultimately, valueless, and feeling as if I have value for something that is fairly empty. Vanity. Poof. Just a puff of air and nothing else.

This is an attempt to grapple with my own mortality, but a large part of this has to do directly with my vanity, and the feeling of my own SMV lowering. I know that there aren't too many women on here and this is an issue that I think more women can appreciate, but I felt that it was worth sharing, and that some of you would get something out of this. My 29th birthday is just around the corner, and there is much for me to think about. I the past three years I have had two pregnancies and have been tied down by breastfeeding two babies. The changes my body has gone through, and the hormonal changes and the mental and emotional changes and has been intense. It has been a lot in a relatively short amount of time. It has been an overall very positive experience, but there is no denying that I still feel a little shocked by all the changes, and it has hammered home the realization that I'm definitely going to one day die, and that I'm definitely going to grow old. It is this last part that has had me wide awake at night because it has uncovered insecurities that I didn't know existed in me, and they are strong. I don't think other people would notice that I look different now than before I first got pregnant, but there are things that I notice, and I have realized that there is this woman inside of me that is desperate to look forever 25, and the slightest hint of the appearance of aging has sent her into a mad panic. It is a stark fear, and I have even caught myself (to my surprise and horror) feeling anger when I see a younger, attractive woman. I think it's pretty obvious that it is an instinctual fear of being abandoned for a younger, hotter, higher SMV woman, and that I and my babies will be left out in the cold without hope or a way to fend for ourselves, and I must do whatever I can to stay attractive for as long as I can (or so my fear says), or love, attention, and resources will be cut off, and, basically = death. I feel full of doubt about the strength of my relationships and whether or not I have people around me who would want me as I am, and without a pretty face. I distinctly remember my granddad (who was the father figure in my life) ignoring me when I didn't look good (I think it was all unconscious), and conversely, showing interest in me and being pleased when I looked pretty. But my grandmother, his wife, must have felt the same anxiety I feel, because she had two facelifts and a neck lift, and had drawers and boxes filled with expensive creams and pills to keep her young and thin and youthful. My aunt, his daughter, had a nose job in her teens. My mother has recently had two necklifts, had the skin on her legs hacked off for a "more shapely curve," and has had breast implants. . . It's frightening to me. . . If she hates her own aging and appearance so much, will she be anxious if she sees me aging, too? She, too, sounds bitter and angry when she talks about younger, pretty women. My cousin told me (in that joking-but-not-joking manner) that she had hoped that I would be covered in stretch marks after my pregnancies, and she was disappointed that I wasn't hideous and stretched out and terribly scarred afterwards. I know that the only solution to this is to focus more on the good that I'm building with my family, and to use the emotional knowledge of my now only-ever lowering SMV as an opportunity to grow more and become a better person and grow more confidence. But I would never have guessed that I was as vain as this - that my looks and SMV have actually mattered to me my whole life - or have guessed at the primacy, and the depth, and the force of the desire to control attention. There is a very raw nerve there, and now I understand the evil queen in the fairytale that goes to such extreme and terrible lengths to keep her youth and beauty. I have no desire to hold on to this fear. It is life-killing and frightening and evil. But I did not realize that it was even there within me, and I guess have to thank my impending encroachment to "The Wall" to thank for revealing it to me. There is a small feeling of relief, however, amidst the fear. I'm glad I'm feeling the fear now, and that its so strong. I means I can change. I see how my mom and grandmother have lived in constant terror and anxiety about their looks, and I can escape that fate. I don't have to follow. I can know what it's like to be free. But "The Wall" is not a trivial thing. It is an eye-opener, and I had no idea that it would be such a paradigm shift to confront my own lowering SMV.

Are you Catholic? I know nothing about the Catechism. I was raised in the Church of Christ (raised there, but am atheist), and I only know the Biblical texts. The whole foundation of the Church of Christ is based on the idea that the Bible is the word of God, and nothing else is needed outside of the text. Because of this, I grew up without any knowledge of outside authoritative texts, and within the Bible I see no evidence that Lucifer is the devil. I do view the Bible as mythology. The Church of Christ is a fundamentalist Protestant groupand pushes the literal truth of the Bible. I believed this when I was growing up, but when I really started digging into the texts and the history and all the translations and history of languages, it seemed impossible that the Garden of Eden story could be factual truth. There are too many inconsistencies and downright contradictions in factual assertions and theological ideas. It had to be mythical, and I believe it is a heavily doctored and spliced mythology at that.

I am sorry for you and the situation that you and most men are in. It's pretty bleak. I think, however, that the only chance society has of being saved lies with men getting angry, refusing to abandon ship, and fighting as men to be men out of some last vestiges of heroism and love for themselves and for civilization and freedom. I also realize that there's not really much incentive for this to happen. But I do think, that unless this happens, the fallout is inevitable and our world will just be one giant China/N Korea of censorship and doom.

I believe in that, too. I don’t think we’re avoiding controversial subjects or just pretending that everything is ok. We’ve had some really wonderful, honest, revealing conversations lately and I think it is increasing the feeling of intimacy for both of us. It feels very rewarding, and makes me feel quite optimistic about the future. I think I didn’t really trust in the “good times” before, since I did have the sense that there was always something bad waiting to crash down unexpectedly. Of course, this happy season we’re in right now can very well continue, provided both of us stay engaged with each other and turn toward one another with honesty and empathy. I don’t think that there will never be issues again or anything that niaive, but it does feel like we really turned a page in how we handle things. I think this is the value of commitment... we were both good people in some ways before we met, and we both had some very big character failings, too, and I doubt either of us would have faced those flaws without the seriousness of our relationship. And since we’re both dead-set I’m staying together, it forces us to either figure our problems out or live a silent death lol.

Lol no worries about misspelling my username - it was supposed to be Elizabeth, but I mistyped when I created my login info. Things have been really good!! I actually have been feeling like we're in paradise, and he keeps doing things that assure me he feels the same. It's quite a blessing. I think that even just talking on here was a good pressure-reliever for me, and let me get some insight and figure out how to act without blowing up emotionally. Thank you for all your interest and time. It has been a real help!

Yeah, women get turned on by men with moral values. I would think it might be easier for men to get a women turned on by his integrity since women (even those without a working moral compass) are turned on more by behaviors than looks. A man can be alpha (at least in her eyes) and still be very ugly. I would think women have a predisposition that makes them open to learning and growing with a man. I think this is extremely true. I used to read comments like this on reddit/r/theredpill and felt very insulted and wondered if men held any respect or felt that women were valuable at all. When I was growing up I had always thought only stupid women wanted to stay home and only do kid stuff - I felt a very special contempt for stay-at-Home moms, and was sure that they were dumb, simple, and might as well have gone off and died for as much as they mattered in society. But I think that I just hated excepting my own femininity and thought that if I were smart I would be a man, only prettier. I no longer feel that it’s insulting to say that a woman raises children and a man raises adults. I see it in my own experience - I have a hard time separating the emotions of my children from my own emotions, and vis versa. I feel it so deeply. I think this is good - I don’t know that I would have been able to stay up with them for nights on end if there comfort was not the same as my own. I realize that there will come a time when it will be unhealthy for them to stay in the realm of my vaguely narcissistic, consuming type of love, but I don’t know that I will be able to turn off that bond at will. It’s there for a reason and it is lovely right now. It’s a type of bond I could never have dreamed up. It’s just heaven. But that means that I will have to accept my husband taking a more prominent role later on. I think it will be quite painful when this happens... it seems a little unfair. I have such a small window to actually be what I feel like I was created for.

Thanks. I will look into a lot of this. I freak out quite often about what all has happened to our food supply. I think it's been the cause of lots of health issues in my own life so far and in the lives of people in my family. Reminds me of a guy I knew when I was younger. He had gotten hooked on rX pills and was trying to put himself through a detox, and kept saying that he could never fully detox because even the water was tampered with.

Ok. As a disclaimer, there is a big conspiracy theorist streak in me (although I would consider most of FDR a little conspiracy-theory-esque) Please don't laugh. I have been struggling with this and have done tons and tons of internet researching, but I am doubtful of most of what I read and was hoping that people here would know of credible places to get good, solid information about vaccines. I find it hard to trust most sources, and highly suspect that all the "data" I read is either total BS or extremely manipulated. I recently stumbled upon an article that said there are some vaccines that are harvested from aborted fetuses, and male babies are especially susceptible to the X chromosome in a vaccine since they carry the XY pattern, and this could contribute to the feminization of male children. Female children are still affected by a vaccine harvested from a male fetus, but less so since they already have XX chromosomes. Anyone have any science background that would give me some clarification? I would appreciate a point towards some credible information.

@smarterthanone @barn @Siegfried von Walheim @Pod @Tyler H @Jot I apologize for beating a dead horse, because that’s what I’m going to do. I’m afraid sometimes I’m a little slow, but when I make a break through I get excited and want to share. This was a really interesting discussion and it made me think a lot. I think that I came at this conversation in the wrong way. I think porn is lower-level stuff and harmful, but I was missing the original question as to whether or not it is immoral. As long as everyone agrees, it’s not immoral. The “good” or “bad” of it rests squarely on the effect it has on the consumer. I know many many of you already reached that conclusion and I was late to the game, but I still wanted to join the party. Happy New Years!

I’m not really sold on the mythology of Lucifer as the Devil. The instances that Lucifer is mentioned (Isaiah and Ezekiel) are not actually about the Devil. I was under the impression that in Isaiah “Lucifer” is a transliteration on the Hebrew word Heylel/“light-bringer” or “bringer of the dawn.” In Ezekiel, many scholars think the passage is only about the king of Tyre. I know Milton infused Christianity with some vivid and striking mythology about the heavens and all supernatural beings, but I don’t really know much that vaidlates the view of Lucifer/Satan as a fallen angel. If it is a part of the Biblical tradition, I would have to guess that it’s a piece of a pagan tradition that got assimilated by the Yahweh cult over time. Plus, if God truly is “God,” how could he be having so much difficulty defeating his own defective angel? In the traditional Christian world view, there is one proclaimed god, but in actuality it is God v Satan, a dualistic pitting of one god against another god of equal power.

@GatoVillano I don't think you're a conspiratard. I took anti-depressants and birth control for years, starting from a very young age, and will never touch that stuff again. I had some depression issues and those two things were the medical solutions. The major caveats: the anti-depressants are terrifying and generally throw someone with depression into psychosis, and the birth control pills make women into totally different humans. I took them throughout my entire college years and felt literally no interest in men. When I stopped taking them I instantly noticed the attractive guys around me and got a boyfriend. I think it changes women's preferences for the men that they surround themselves with. I would go further, though, and say that the engineering isn't just with pharmaceuticals. It's also the food and water. Even a lot of the vegetables are weird now and there's so much crap in the drinking water that I wouldn't be surprised that they're using that, too. I haven't heard of doctors pushing formula. Most of the pediatricians I have known really encourage moms to breastfeed their babies. The milk molecules in soy and cow-based formulas aren't the easiest for babies to digest, but the human breastmilk populates the baby's intestines with sugar for good bacteria growth, delivers tailored water and fat ratios for the baby, and releases oxytocin in both the mom and infant. Most MDs I know are all about that.

I had always thought of it this way. "God" had to create an alternative to himself and his rule for there to be true love between mankind and God, because love only exists if there is a choice.