David L

If the "many" aren't separate from each other, then why do you call them "many"? As said before, many different expressions of one.

Ok then you aren't talking about holons because that's the definition of a holon - something that is both one whole and a part amongst many parts. I guess you disagree with the holon concept. I don't believe the holon concept states that the parts are "separate" from the whole, but I could be mistaken. If that's an intrinsic part of the definition, then I would disagree with it on that level. But otherwise the concept is sound in my view. You also contradict yourself since you mentioned 100 million fingernail cells or something like that. Apparently to you there can be 100 million cells but at the same time there are not "many cells." Already said there are many expressions of One, silly.

Wow. First of all I do not own the air I breathe so it would be irrational and arbitrary for me to suddenly say I own this body which depends upon it. That's totally inconsistent. Rather, this body is a gift being constantly bequeathed by the universe as a whole for my enjoyment and use, just as the air is which freely nourishes it. I can't claim a separate survival, so I can't claim self-ownership. If anyone's the rightful owner, it's the universe itself, not this little me. More and more I just go with the flow, and the flow can be very nice when I'm out of its way. :-)

If it makes no difference, they why the bother?

I would not say that there is ultimately both one and many, although it may appear that way from the point of view of the bodymind. Otherwise we could not have a universe. Rather, I would say there is inherent oneness at all times that expresses and manifests itself in many ways. Many different and unique ways.Those differences and ways are to be respected and cherished, which, paradoxically finally leads us to their source----their source of oneness with each other. This is a more accurate description of the fundamental nature of existence as I see it. I hope I'm not coming off as stubborn here. :-)

But it does, at a more inclusive level. This is the essence of the holon we talked about earlier. The cells of your fingernail make up your one fingernail. Your fingernail is not just one hundred million cells---it is ONE finger nail. If you deny this oneness, you deny the reality of anything being one thing.

Hi Mishelle, As I see it, the weakest or the most violent part of another is not truly part of another, nor is it truly part of you. Not the real you. Identifying with it in another may be helping you to get beyond any remnant sense of it belonging strictly to you, but ultimately it belongs to no one. Maybe that was the point of the exercise the community was offering you---to impersonalize any sense of latent weakness within so it can no longer stick to anyone personally in the group. I don't know, but that's the sense I get from what you have shared. You could ask the group leader the next time you visit if that is in fact the intent of the exercise. The fact that you experienced ecstasy seems to indicate that you transcended your ordinary personal sense of self, but I certainly can't speak for you. For myself, ecstasy is a very good description for the transpersonal experience. Thanks a million for sharing, you have really lit a fire here on the forum :-) David

If everything is One then how can things have different proper places? If they are in different places, and must be in particular "right" places, then there are multiple things being discussed. In your own comment there, you distinguish cyanide, which has one proper place, from the human body, which has another proper place. Those sound to me like two different things. Let's take a piano. One piano. It is precisely a piano because it has many different strings and keys, layed out in their proper places. This arrangement of unique differences is what makes it a piano. ONE whole piano. Take away any of the keys or strings or parts and it isn't a piano proper anymore. The oneness of the differences makes the music, see !!

As I already pointed out previously, the identity of things has to do not only with what they are made up of, but the arrangement of those parts. My body may have the same elements as some other entity, but if those elements are arranged differently in me than in it, we are not "one." There is a crucial distinction that leads to very different properties. Not everything that has the same ingredients is the same thing. Those ingredients, mixed in different amounts and different configurations create different things. The identity of which you speak cannot exist without a constant inflow from what is considered "outside" of it. Meaning, it cannot exist in isolation from it. Meaning it is ultimately one with it, even though it may express itself differently and uniquely from it. Your heart expresses itself differently than your brain, but they are not two isolated entities, they are merely differentiated organs of ONE body. The body is precisely ONE because its organs ("parts") are inseparable from each other. In the same way, the body itself is inseparable from the universe "outside" of it, because "universe" means ONE, not two (or more than two). There is by definition nothing in the universe that is not a part of itself. "Universe" mean all-inclusive, all one. I hope that clarifies further.

It is simply a matter of things being in their rightful place. For your body to function as one, it musn't have spinal fluid flowing through your veins, which would be fatal. Yet you do have spinal fluid flowing within your spinal column, in its proper place, within your body that functions as ONE body. See? Cyanide gas has its proper place in the universe. The human body has its proper place, too. Do you know what "universe" means? The prefix 'uni" means "one". Nothing in the universe exists in isolation when all is one, yet everything has its proper place at the same time. Hope this makes more sense of what I'm saying. The body cannot exist in a vacum because it was not born in a vacum, it was born out the universe of form, out of a cosmic, planetary and mamalian matrix called the human species. To believe that we are not all ultimately one with each other and the world is literally a form of insanity. Little wonder the world is in the state it is in, eh?

And on what would you base this claim other than simply some subjective feeling you have, which has no more validity than someone else's subjective feeling that we are separate? How do you know it isn't you who has a SENSE of us not being separated even though we actually are (at least in part)? Sorry for the delay on this. I would say that if you do not trust your own feeling of inner well being vs non-well being as a determinant in what is truly real and authentic in this regard, the claim of oneness can otherwise be validated empirically on the physical level by attempting to totally separate your body from the world :-) This is also known as "suicide" ! The fact that you cannot separate your body from the environment indicates your body is one with it. Hope that better clarifies.

Just some thoughts along the present line of this thread... Spiritual fakery, as with fakery in general, is indeed widespread, without a doubt. The ego constantly co-opts true concepts for its own separative agenda, especially the concept of oneness, and it also cleverly uses that very abuse as an excuse to dismiss the concept altogether, claiming it is bogus, dangerous, and thus mustn't be explored in depth. Indeed, the ego knows that the concept of oneness ultimately threatens its illusory hegemony as a selfhood totally apart from the world, even while struggling to incorporate that world into itself at the expense of those around it. It's only when a real crisis hits on a grand scale that you will often see the "Let's Pretend" game of separation fall away, revealing our better, truer, all-inclusive nature beneath. Then again of course, some will go in the opposite direction, into final self-destruction. Clearly, the more we realize we are all ultimately inseparable on a fundamental level, the easier it will become for all of us, in the same way that the cells of our body all benefit in the understanding of their rightful place in the integrity and oneness of the body as a whole. Nothing "New Age" about that, it's just that we've totally forgotten this ancient wisdom due to centuries of suppression by the church and the scientism that still prevail. Real science and spirituality are yet ahead of us, and I would suggest they have their foundation in the sincere exploration of our fundamental inseparability with life and existence. There is no separate survival.

For me, the realization of oneness signifies freedom, wholeness, harmony. So it's just a metaphor then? No, it embodies those attributes.

For me, the realization of oneness signifies freedom, wholeness, harmony.

Sorry David, but this requires further explanation.. This sounds like one ought to ignore ones perceptions of the world around them and start to embelish on them. OK. Would you say the body is inseparable from the world?

I would say there are degrees of a SENSE of separation, without there being any actual separation in reality. I know that's a very challenging position to take from the point of view of the body and the five physical senses, but I stand by it.

There is nothing boring about the realization of Oneness, which lies beyond mere agreement. NOTHING is more exciting. Challenging the sense of separation, rather than just sleepwalking in it, is the way to awaken from the dream. This world is not at all what it appears to be. In the same way we previously thought it was flat, we presently think it is outside of us.

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Hi there. Different does not mean separate (although it can SEEM separate). The Oneness differentiates Itself into myriad levels, or holons of order, which express the inherent order of the unmanifest Oneness. I'm guessing you are familiar with Ken Wilber's work?

Oneness and separation obviously cannot co-exist together, but oneness and the APPEARANCE of separation can. At first glance It APPEARS like my body is separate and apart from the world, but a closer examination reveals it is not separate. It is made up of the world, just like the wave of an ocean is made up of the ocean.

Why challenge anyone if you actually agree with yourself? Because agreeing with yourself isn't challenging :-)

Hi Mischelle, Regarding the idea that we are all one (which you now seem to disagree with??), I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it. Which means, for starters, you must cease to breathe any air outside of your own physical body (which up to this point has been nurtured, maintained and sustained by said planet). Up for the challenge? :-)

Your logic here is impeccable. Thanks for sharing. :-)

More thoughts along this line... Playing the Separation Game, that is the "Let's Pretend" game that we are NOT all one, is a LOT of work. Question: How much easier would it be on ourselves if we stopped pretending that we are all fundamentally separate and apart from each other and realized that yes, we really do all breathe the same air, and none of us are born out of thin air, we are born out of something called the human species, which itself has arisen out of the even larger matrix of biological planetary life itself. Comments?

What's really cool is to realize your Oneness with Life so you're not a slave to money anymore. :-)