powder

Had not checked the price of bitcoin of a while and just saw that it is down around $230 (canadian) - when I started following it the price was around $800 if I remember correctly. have been waiting to buy some, glad that I waited... who knows the news on the coin?

someone want to take this one? I would be up for a discussion of how you are able to process that whole theology thing. I just had talk with some christian friends (I have a bunch of them) about some things that made them stare at me with a blank look, I'd like to get your take on them. It fascinates me. want to start a thread in religion section?

If that statement is true, then that is the reason that you cannot have government because the bad people will naturally climb to the top of any hierarchical structure that gives them control of people and resources.

thanks for sharing everyone, I have found some new and interesting music here. It also makes me feel old and out of the loop because so much of it is new to me. I like this guy, I go see his live shows whenever I can. Also because I got an nylon string acoustic a couple of years ago and am now playing a couple of rumbas with my new band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzoHlUExtjQ

I love Parov's music!

exactly, and part of the idea behind the BRICKS movement is to start using a currency other than the US dollar to buy oil, and with countries like these too large to bully, ...

I have never met anyone that is happy to pay their taxes in the same way they are happy to give gifts or support their favorite charities. I know many people that consent to and support the tax system, are even proud and patriotic about what they consider a 'necessary evil' and are keen to report any possible tax evaders. This is not because they like it, but because they are convinced, and wrongly so, that it is required. That is not the same as voluntary participation, it is a response to coercion.

good assessment ETU, you are likely right on the mark there. Interesting to see how the BRICKS countries are moving to disengage from reliance on the US dollar as well. I will be keen to see how it plays out over the next couple of years.

I agree with Pepin. It really depends on the nature of the relationship and the possible impact on all concerned. It has to make sense to me before I will engage in that kind of conversation with someone.

I think that Stef claims that you cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into. I am sure that is very much the case. Religious indoctrination is inflicted on children, that programming is in the hard drive. Since in religious traditions morality is purported to be a big part of what matters when I talk to religious people I talk about ethics and challenge them on the moral contradictions that the belief system requires them to adhere to and support. It is interesting to watch because they give you a blank stare as if the program has frozen because it cannot handle the input, then they usually ramble on with one of their programmed responses or 'testimonies'. I don't know if it makes a difference but I think it plants a virus in the program at least. chances are they will just avoid talking to you after when you do that sort of thing to them because it really is a afront to their security.

was listening to Harry Dent a little while ago, he has a different take and conclusions regarding the direction it will all take - quite to opposite of the inflationary bubble/skyrocketing gold prices mantra. He thinks the opposite will happen when the de-leveraging begins. Massive deflation and dropping of prices for everything including gold and silver - he says cash will be king. like everyone else, his predictions have fallen short the last few years as no expected or predicted the QE stuff to happen, a real game changer. I saw it coming and got out of the market before the 2008 crash, I too was expecting interest rates to go up after. sold two houses, rented, waited for the big sales... If I were running the game and wanted to impoverish everyone I think the plan is a good one. the first wave (Real estate bubble, 2008) takes out 40% and a lot of the middle class wealth is wiped out. prop up the system with easy money and drop interest rates to chase the rest of the wealth into the financial markets and speculative real estate to inflate another bubble. then hit em again. when will it pop? I do think that 2015-2016 will be the time when we will see the next big shift - whatever that will look like. I am also willing to bet that it will happen in a way that will make us say, again, "wow, didn't see that one coming"

When I saw the large red and green lettering and the "merry christmas and happy holidays" banner at the top of this FDR page, I thought, "huh, how about that? I would have expected 'happy holidays' but not so much the 'merry christmas' part. Still, I take it for what it is and enjoy the festivities and company of good people. I usually just say "happy holidays' to people, but its all good, not a lot of coercion going on with that kind of stuff.

Downin already asked this question in another thread, he/she either didn't like, or did not understand the answers.

nice job DS, right to the point as well. hope it gets lots of views.

what if a person chooses to use their money to hire someone to murder someone else? Is that a 'correct' choice?

what dsayers said is excellent. By what you have written I understand that your definition of 'bad' decisions are those that made you 'miserable'. Is that correct?

yeah, you're probably not going to like it, I think you will find that it boils down to multi-generational trend of peaceful parenting.

Den, how do you see watching 2 movies for the price of one, and taking day old donuts leading to murder. This is quite an assertion. Do you have an argument? Can you walk me through that? this does not make sense to me. He has 'ethics by authority' but has given up on trusting other people's authority? Who are these people with authority that he has given up trusting? Also I don't understand that if you think that moral tenets are universal then one is not 'better' than the other; 'ethics by authority' or personal ethics are equally irrelevant. What are you talking about here?

I was going to edit my post to include a couple of other thoughts but it got whisked off to the moderation realm so... Like I said, morally speaking I like to focus on the NAP - theft, assault, murder, rape - they are directly connected to property rights and can logically and rationally be universalized. When it comes to things like sneaking into a movie it becomes more difficult to argue that this is theft; was any property taken that is no longer there? Broken promises, not honoring contracts and so on, as long as the interactions are all voluntary and the disputes are resolved without violence, I don't care to focus too much of that in the bigger picture. If I am in a close relationship with a person that I cannot trust, that is a different conversation.

that is a really good post Den, you raise some important points. I can understand your frustration, though I don't share your concern that the slippery slope of compromising personal integrity by getting away with stuff leads to the evils of the kind we experience with the state and religion. I don't put voluntary contractual agreements and dispute resolution situations in the same moral category as the NAP - theft, murder, rape. The issue I have with the state, and religion, is that violence is the solution to every problem. People raised with parents who punish and discipline them to control them naturally internalize this and generally end up thinking that the coercion exercised by the state is not only good but necessary. I think this is how evil prospers, when it can masquerade as necessary or even good. On the subject of personal integrity, my mother told us: "never steal anything small". I like that quote. I will be interested to see some other responses to your query. thanks for sharing.

That's a good post Tom. I think that any time you try to tackle the practical side of these types of things it is challenging to imagine how it will all come together. Overlapping your voluntary community formula over the existing top down political structure is the main thing that makes me shudder a bit. You still have a 'leader' telling everyone how things are going to work. I know it sucks to have to wait for enough people to be raised peacefully for society to transform away from coercion, but it may not take as long as all that. Who knows what events will turn the tide. I also think the people will organize and create unimaginable ways of getting along and prospering that we cannot see from the dark place we are in and I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. It would be like asking a medieval person to create wireless communication, they just aren't there. Important stuff to think about for sure. thanks for sharing.

the case for the logic of universal morality has been made in this thread.

they did indeed make a convincing argument and the idea of owning precious metals more appealing. I was going to buy a bunch of silver a couple of years ago (Canadian coins) but I never followed up. I am thinking things are going to get hairy within the next year or two so I am looking into getting out of a bunch of cash.

so you are saying that people can think it is preferable to have bad things done to themselves and others. how can someone prefer to have their property taken without consent?

OK, you have a different definition of theft. can you tell me what the definitions of 'subjective' and 'moral' are? we must be talking about different things here.