Bouncelot

I feel for you. I am in the process of something similar, only she broke up with me first, then decided later she wanted to be friends. We are in the process of trying to define "friends" at the moment. I believe I know where you are coming from in that, for me, "in love" is more of a state, and a reflection of how much I value her. Through many discussions I have discovered that she for the most part currently is confusing "in love" with lust. She does love me, value me, respect me, is physically attracted to me, yet continues to say she is not "in love". Which confused and frustrated me for quite a bit... In essence, I think, we are in different places in our self-knowledge path. Right now we are working or re-building the friendship, working on communication, and just enjoying each others presence. Distance can cause allot of issues... I have been lucky enough to not have experienced that... I agree that you should not move "for him"; and especially not with everything in flux. I agree with the advice above, some good discussion, find the heart of the disconnect. It could be that you two are seeing the same things, but defining them differently.

I agree. It strikes me as very..... not sure how to describe it... It's like everyone now is being separated from them selves, they are being told not to trust themselves (makes them better slaves i suppose...) Let society tell you what to do, don't think for yourself, don't trust your own mind! Judgment is bad! This just seems like an extension of that. A way to soften what little skill people have left. It's very non-direct, non-confrontational. It removes accountability. "My app told me we shouldn't be friends.". In the right context, with the help of a therapist it could be an interesting tool to help those who don't have the right skills build them. I don't foresee it being used that way however.

10 or so years ago I was in much the same position. I was aware of the question, even had some ideas (first round draft) on how I would answer the female side, but I was completely unable to answer what I brought to the table. What I didn't understand then is that after years of self erasure, after being exposed to many toxic women, I had not been "allowed" to see myself in that respect. That was part of the issue. The other part was I had not had enough intimate relationships to even understand what I really wanted from a woman, and why I desired them so much (beyond the physical). It took a lot of years of self discovery, and many dating mistakes to finally be able to answer that question for myself. It wasn't until about a year ago when I met my last girlfriend that we found ourselves discussing this very topic, that I was surprised to discover I now had my answer to that. I think the path to the answer is different for everyone. For me I needed to make a few mistakes and bumble about a bit to get there. I don't have FDR to help me (Only discovered it 2 years ago); and it was only recently that I have started therapy.

When you are "there" with someone. Truly comfortable and open, this stuff either comes out or doesn't. If it does, then it can in a weird way be a bonding experience. A secret shared, showing them you trust them with it. It can become an inside joke. It can also just be exposing all aspects of your character to them to create a greater understanding. If it doesn't come out, then it wasn't important. If you have to wonder or ask if you should say anything; I would think that you may not be "there" yet.

That is the key to a lot of things I suppose, isn't it? Knowing who YOU are, helps to protect against these people in the future, and helps us break free in the present. For me, I had to become the "guiltless man". Years before I discovered Atlas Shrugged, and other such writing, I broke free by discovering my values, learning who I was, and not accepting any guilt that was not my own; and then you see the death throws as they call you heartless, or anything else they can, to try and get their hooks back into you. The first time it happened I was surprised to find myself laughing in response, and a sense of calm and relief passed over me as I realized I was immune.

12 years off of windows, the first 4 were Linux only, mainly Gentoo. I am now mostly using Mac (*nix under the hood), but keep an Ubuntu server around on an old desktop to play with.

I grew up in a very guilt ridden, manipulative environment. Before I was able to break away I had to learn to see it for what it was. I became very sensitive to this form of manipulation. What has shocked me most is how widespread it is! Its not just in "emotional abuse" families. I think it has just been around so long that is it part of the culture, at least in my area.... I have come across groups of "real friends" who are supportive, and respectful towards each other, but who will still pull a "come-on, a real friend would do X for me..." every once in awhile, and think that is "normal".

Very interesting... I do consume large amounts of coffee....

I am the same. I can count the dreams i have had/remembered on 1 hand. The ones I have had have also all been lucid dreams. I have also never gotten complaints about tossing & turning in my sleep, or talking/walking either (not in my adult life). I just assumed it meant really peaceful sleep. In high stress times though, I will wake-up thinking I may have had a dream, but never remembering any details, just that there was a sense that i should be remembering something.

I see what you are saying, however i am not sure they even went that far. If you remove the work "patriarchy" and replaced it with "society", or "based on current thinking/practices" it would fit just as well, and make sense. Allot of this mirrors what I have heard on the show, read, and heard from my therapist. (unless there is some distinction I am missing) It almost reads to me like they took the text from somewhere else, and inserted "patriarchy" wherever they could, to make it consumable by feminists. Given that the feminist platform does not have a high regard for accountability, perhaps this was an attempt to inject some into their literature?

Welcome!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html This should get interesting. Wonder how the many creationist groups will respond?

There is also the fact that food banks cover up a problem, not solve it! Why do these people need food? Here is an example I encountered as a child (I was 10 or so) there was this family within our town. They were on welfare, cheating the system of course, (not sure how many cheques they were bringing in), The father kept the money for himself, the kids and his wife were barely fed, or clothed. He had a brand new bike and truck every year, ate every meal out, etc.... Now the family "functioned" and few questions were asked largely b/c they were able to get food and clothing from these social programs, and "appear" relatively OK.

I think the psychological hits so hard b/c it twists "who we are", the people responsible for teaching us what is "normal" end up teaching us wrong or backwards thinking, that carries through the rest of our lives. Until/Unless we wake up and seek help that is. What's worse is it often causes us to run from "normal" as it doesn't "feel right".

Great comments guys! To clarify my own relationship to this, I do not consider my behavior in this regard OCD, I will say it is a minor (resistible) compulsion. If i go through a drive-through and they give it to me "wrong" I will fix it. It does not bother me if others have it any other way. It was merely the catalyst for a random though of "I wonder if people with OCD, are compelled by childhood events?", and if so, what does that say about my own compulsion with my coffee?

So, this morning I was getting my morning coffee the same way I always have... Sleeve seam over top the cup seam, drinking hole opposite the seam. Always hold the seam when I take a sip. Nothing severe, nothing overly strange, but it got me thinking. Are OCD type behaviors related to our pasts? or are they something else? As a child I had very little control over my environment. Could something as simple as getting a cup of coffee be a way of exercising that control that I had lacked early on?

Sorry to hear this! Unfortunately allot of companies are not looking for people with any kinds of aspirations.... "They might leave us!?" The problem is, by not providing their employees with those options, they DO leave out of boredom. I think you answered it perfectly. Its a great way to weed out bad employers!

There is a study or principal or something that discusses this. Basically it equated to the more you know the more you realize how little you know. The less you know the more certain you know everything. This explains how complete morons seem to think they have the answers to everything; and truly intelligent people will never claim to have all the answers.

Yup

The age thing may have been a little harsh, but I appreciated Loners comments. It wasn't anything I had not thought myself already, and it was a big hurdle for me/us. As Skirtilator mentioned (in a different context) she has not reached brain maturity, which was even more of a concern for me. I have gone out of my way to not influence or lead her in any way, to let her "find her path", even though I know this could lead her away from me. An Update... Most of this I suppose is of no consequence now... She made the decision for me. This weekend she approached me, we had a very long open discussion covering the whole relationship, from beginning to end. Yes, end. We talked about the states stages, transitions, How we ended up where we were. A summary of her final statements would be: I love you (something she had never said to me before), and that is why we need to stop seeing each-other. I feel myself going to a dark place, lashing out at those that mean the most to me, and I don't want to hurt you. I am heading for a breakdown, and I don't want you or us to be a casualty of it. You mean too much to me. She does want us to remain friends, but I told her I could not. I can't watch her go through this and just sit on the sidelines, that it would be too painful. But that I knew there were other ways to go through it, without self destructing, that if she decided to take them I would be there for her. Her response was that she had no control over anything her actions at this point, and the coming breakdown. That she will be OK, she has done this twice in her life already, and that she felt she was getting better, as this is the first time she has tried to spare someone... ... talk about a mind fuck... I really want to hate her for this! Instead I am stuck worrying even more! She has pushed myself, and her best friend out of her life, its not a good sign... I really don't know what to do or even think about this... On the bright side, before all of this happened I manage to make my first appointment with a therapist. I am hoping this one works out. On paper, and with my brief discussion with her, it seems like a good fit. But time will tell. But of course this is more about dealing with my own issues, and my past, and nothing to do with my Ex. (Feels strange calling her that...)

Very good. Thanks for Sharing! I have not been through this myself, but have witnessed it over the years with friends and relatives. When i confronted those involved about it they were dumbfounded, and just did not get the damage that was being done. IMO it's the equivalent of a a bird picking the wing feathers off their young.

Agree with the above posts. more info would be useful as well. preferably a specific example. If I am understanding what you are saying, then from what I have seen and heard, it is usually caused by someone in our past (often parents) who punished us for expressing our needs or thoughts. This creates a hyper sensitivity, this feeling that someone will get angry if you say what is on your mind.

@Loner, for some reason your post just showed up for me this morning. I do appreciate the hard line from you and the others who have responded to this thread, thank you all! The age thing was a shocker for me, and has never happened to me before, nor do I think it will again. She was "different". We share allot of the same hobbies and interests, taste in music and movies, books, etc... Her parents are actually the same age as my parents, I think that may have allot to do with it not being overly weird. Even though I am old enough to be her father, I am not, and neither of us wants or is looking for that. "Does "frivolous things" equates to you buying her expensive stuff? She's not sure if she "believed" in long term relationships or marriage? Sounds like she's playing you like a fiddle..." No, she actually not interested in the money or what I can do for her at all it seems. by "frivolous things" I mean playing video games, watching movies, going for a run, anything where we were to distracted, or too out of breadth to have a real conversation. The marriage thing more has to do with her parents marriage breaking up, she is taking it hard, and questioning love in general. She thought they were happy, and idealized their marriage. As most of us do at the beginning of our lives, then something happens to make us question those beliefs. For me that happened very young, for her it just seems to be happening later. "Going back to college for a career? Does she want children? If she wants children, and she wants to get a career as well; she's an idiot." She does not want children. "Entire days where she needs to rest? Is she an introvert?" She is; and her rest/recovery time is getting scarce. She also has an issue opening up in the moment, and I have been trying to get her to (I have similar issues). So when she is having a bad day, or an issue with a friend she will tell me something like "just had a fight with my mom, going to stay home tonight, I don't want to put this on you.", afterwards she will tell me all about it, and share it with me, but only once she has had time to deal with it. @hannahbanana Sounds like you guys handled it really well! kudos! This is what I have been expecting from her, and not seeing. My main source of frustration.

You are right. that's why I put "I don't think the last is a healthy option". It is definitely something I would not do. I may not be bright, but I am not that dense! It more of an instinctive reaction; and one I know is not right. It is taking advantage of her state, and "buying her time". But I also want to make life easier for her, not harder. Hence the exact opposite (logical) reaction of wanting to dump her. The distance from school is just a matter of standard of living. rent out here is almost 1/2 what she would pay in the city, and she has a really good rent at the moment in a place she likes. In terms of the event, I tried to cover this in the OP. I think she is also, on top of everything, trying to avoid something (look at the subject). It's an accumulation of events. Our relationship hitting a point that scared her (this is her second longest, and her most serious relationship), her "awaking" questioning the intentions of her friends, parents, the government, etc... On top of that her parents are in the process of what appears to be heading to a divorce, her mother is narcissistic and verbally abusive, it has gotten worse since the mother has started fighting with the dad. Now throw the schooling and everything else on top of it, and you have quite a mess, with many reasons to avoid. I suspect that when we got together, ans she saw how things "should be", it started the ball rolling. Her A.C.E. is a 5, prior to us, I get the impression that most of what she has told be about her childhood, she has never shared before. She admitted to me, when I approached her about bout her parents fighting, that she had become "numb" to it all and that it didn't bother her anymore... It possible that all of this changing that. but I am not a shrink... I don't envy her. For me it was a slow process that took a decade. She seems to be hitting it all at once.

The course is not overly difficult, ~50hrs between classes and homework. It is out of town though, so add 1-2hrs of traffic each way. Then throw a job (which she started last week, and just told me about now....) Plus working with two organizations ~3hrs a week for one, and ~6 for the other. And then her friendships on top of that.... it does not leave much time.... We did have a talk a few weeks ago about her needing to prioritize things; and the fact that she has an issue with invitation=obligation. She will drop plans with me or friends, for random invites to a friend of a friend's BBQ or something b/c she feels guilty for not attending. She seem to get it, she seemed to know its an issue... but I have seen nothing yet that would indicate that she is doing anything about it... but hard to see improvement when I barely see her! What caused you to hit the wall? How was the relationship handled during that time? My biggest issue is I don't know what "normal" is, what I can/should deal with, and where the line needs to be drawn. Sometimes I think I am just over reacting, and others I think it is justified.... Should she not put me at least 4th on her list of priorities? Sometimes I think I set myself up by telling her that I understood, was there for her, and that it was OK to say no to me sometimes if she needed time. Before that she had gotten into the habit of scheduling time with me, when she didn't really have any, and needed to be elsewhere. I wanted her to know that I did not want her if she was just humoring me. Now it seems I am the only one she can say no to, and she is humoring everyone else! I understand that stress can do strange things to the mind, I get it, I have gone through similar periods, only I was alone at the time. I just don't know how much I should put up with before it crosses that line into unhealthy. Part of me wants to dump her. And part wants to "make everything better" by inviting her to move in, and telling her to quit the job, so that she has more free time... I don't think the last is a healthy option, and I am not sure about the first....