neeeel

So, you only want to debate that free will exists, with people who already believe that free will exists? Thats a strange position to take

ye, well its lucky I never put it forward as an argument for anything. I didnt think we were getting anywhere, its perfectly possible the problem is on my side, but dont make out I have made no arguments at all. determinism does preclude free will, as I outlined in my last post ( that you have to reject materialism). I also outlined how ALL belief ( and therefore knowledge) is based on unprovable axioms or things that you just accept. perhaps we need to define knowledge to proceed? You say we cant have knowledge in a deterministic universe. What is your definition of knowledge? You certainly havent show how choices can exist within universal laws I dont know what "potentialities can exist within universals" means. I also dont know what it means to say "more than one thing can happen (depending on what causes are acted on)". Causes arent acted on in that sense. There isnt a cause, and then you decide whether to act on it or not. I also dont know what it means to say "humans have the capactiy to enact multiple causes". What does it mean to "enact a cause"? I already outlined why it contradicts materialism, because if the universe is purely materialistic, then any choice is atoms and quarks following the rules. In order for true choice to be possible, there would have to be something "outside the system"

I am going to leave this for now, as I have already covered this. Nothing you say here precludes determinism. If you want to come back this, I can try to put it a different way. You do have to reject materialism, because otherwise you are positing some sort of entity that isnt mechanical, or material. If the universe is purely material, that is, the only things are ( in a basic way) atoms and quarks, and that these atoms and quarks obey rules ( for want of a better word, there arent actually physical rules), then everything in the universe is made of atoms and quarks, and is obeying the rules. This completely rules out free will for any definition of free will. Everything in the system, including thoughts about free will, knowledge, logic etc, are effects of the atoms and quarks following the rules. In order for free will to exist, there would have to be some sort of entity that could "step outside" the materialist rules, and make choices or decisions outside of the physical, material system. This is impossible.

i think this is what my therapist is pointing to as well.

yes i will, thank you

no, I dont feel comfortable getting emotional at all in the therapists office.

Good questions. Its monotone because thats the way I maintain control, I think. As long as I keep everything distant and unemotional, I dont have to confront anything or anyone. I guess its safer that way. And I dont know how to get past that.

Thats the thing. Not really. A bit of anger maybe,if I think about particular incidents. In therapy I am very dispassionate, speak in a monotone, rarely show emotion about anything, I have cried about twice in 2 years.

lack of love or care, lack of help to get me through problems ( actually, they often made things harder/worse). Emotionally distant, physical punishment for first few years of life, scapegoating, fundamental us v them ( parents v children) mentality when it came to child rearing

Im not sure what you mean by "justified in believing in" or "placing ones justification on" You can place your justification on logic. Or not. If theres a set of logical rules, and something follows those rules, then its valid. yes, everything, fundamentally, is faith based. That is, if you follow your belief chain back far enough, for ANY belief you hold, you reach a point where you just have to accept something as an axiom, or as a "well, it just is". Why do you place your justification on logic? Again, nothing you have said rules out a deterministic universe. Everything you said could occur in a deterministic universe. In a deterministic universe, there could be thoughts about "placing ones justification on something" Determinism can mean "determined beforehand" yes. Or it could mean determined as in previous state of the universe + some randomness ( quantum stuff) = current state of the universe. In order to accept free will, you have to reject materialism, and believe in some sort of mystic realm where free will takes place.

nothing is "determined beforehand" . Thats not what determinism means. So, its perfectly possible for a brain to be logical, to come to logical conclusions, in a deterministic world. In a deterministic world, it is also still possible to lay out and follow the steps of logic. Nothing you have said precludes determinism. IF the world is deterministic, all the above behaviours could still be observed. Why do you think its so hard for people to change their beliefs, their positions? Because what they believe, and what convinces them IS determined before hand. Its electrons running down synapses. pathways in the brain that can be re-programmed with difficulty. It has been shown that a lot of what goes on is in fact post hoc fabrication.

how is free will required for knowledge?

Who says theres any potential for you to choose anything else but what your algorithm determines from your data? Its perfectly possible to attempt to disprove free will without invalidating itself. If free will didnt exist, it would still be possible for the determined actors to be determined to come up with a an attempt to disprove free will.

so for example. when I feed data into my computer, and it chooses which player in a match to bet on, has my computer just demonstrated free will? I mean, there was a choice, right?

You are right, I dont know why I feel reluctant to talk about my parents. I didnt want to do a whole "my parents are terrible" speech. but as far as trusting people, relating to people, I can see how a lot of my current problems are connected to how I was raised. I think this is just an intellectual realisation though, it has had a little effect, but Im still stuck.

Yes, we have covered this a lot in therapy. My relationship with my parents was bad and is now non existent. even that I am fundamentally unsure about though

you are right, they are not feelings. I was definitely feeling upset, in despair actually, after I found out about my friend. Im not sure how I reach these conclusions. We have looked at this a bit in therapy, I think its the base belief I have about myself,kind of like the water that surrounds a fish, that I am unlikable and unlovable.

Its an interesting idea, I will look into it Nope, no one from the past. Ye, it feels like I shouldnt be upset, or that I am wrong in some way. I have read psychology of self esteem, a while ago. If he doesnt think he did something wrong, at least he must realise that I would be upset about it, which is why he didnt say anything. I dunno, maybe he would have said "actually I already saw this" if I had gone to the cinema with him. I dunno, im all confused. One minute I think "what sort of a friend would do that" next minute "its not a big deal, maybe he just forgot"

because he knows I would be upset. Or he just doesnt care

For some reason I am reluctant to answer this. I would think that he was probably right, that I was just a whiny pussy, and stupid to get worked up about it. If he reacted with curiosity, I dont know, I think I would feel awkward and unsure.

I would get very quiet and withdrawn and sad.

Ye, this is something I have wondered about. I feel like I cant do that, because I would appear to be being whiny and insecure and needy. I would fear it would be just dismissed as not a big deal, or being questioned as to why I am making a big deal out of it. I also dont think I would believe him, not deep down anyway, if he gave me a plausible reason as to why he didnt go with me. Perhaps I dont want to find out that hes not my friend ( or I suppose, find out that he IS my friend)

Yes, this is part of it, I think. It seems like I just have some vital thing missing that other people have and use without even having to think about it. Maybe making social connections is something that you just cant learn after a certain developmental stage. I could probably fake it to a certain extent, but at some point it all comes crashing down and I realise that theres nothing there. I see other people relaxed and confident that they are liked and wanted, I always assume that I am not liked and not wanted. The thing that set this off was that a friend and I , who were both big Alien Fans, had kind of arranged, as in, not a total formal agreement, but said we would go to see the new Alien movie this weekend. When I saw him yesterday I said , do you still want to go to see the Alien movie, and he said um, oh, yeah, we can still go tomorrow, I will text you. Later on , on twitter, I saw that he had tweeted "new alien movie was pretty interesting", so he had gone a day or two before, without me. Maybe there is some rational explanation for this, or that he just plain forgot, but on top of a few other things happening, this just plunged me into self loathing and despair. Even if he does text me, I dont want to go any more. Its a good point. One that I am trying to make sense of. I am just starting to realise through therapy that I am lonely and un-attached and isolated and distant. I dont really want to spend time with other people, or at least, the desire to not be lonely hasnt outweighed all the other stuff. It is kind of hypocritical to say that no one likes me, when I dont really like anyone. This is why I think I have an unrealistic understanding of what friendship is. Perhaps I think that just spending time with someone qualifies me as a friend. I dont know how to explain it, even with people that I like, there is a feeling, a "need", I dont know how to describe it exactly, like an itch on my back. I guess I come across as wanting something, or needy, I dont know. Definitely not relaxed and fun and friendly, for sure. Im not sure what you are saying here? Perhaps thats the problem. Perhaps I am the one with the drug problem. Perhaps I am the one who is using people. Are there such things as friends who dont use each other? I mean, on a basic level, arent even quality friends using each other for social interaction etc?

I have no friends. No one seems interested in me, in spending time with me. To be fair, I suppose I am not interested in other people or spending time with them, but the few people that I do spend time with, I seem to be disposable and not at all valued. I dont understand what is wrong with me. I dont seem to have a proper understanding of what being friends is. Other people seem to find value in each other, to spend time with each other, to care for each other, and I just dont get it. I dont know if its because I am just sort of wierd and needy and have a fucked up idea of what being friends means. I have no idea how to change anything. I am in therapy and I like my therapist and generally think hes good. ( I realise that this is really whiny and teenagery, but its where I am right now)

doesnt this also mean that its the inifinitely great good one who is murdering someone in a back alley or dropping bombs on civilians?