Drew.

That is quite the reaction that this man had. I'm sorry that you had to experience that. It must have been very intimidating. He likely has illusions about the goodness of his own mother--if he is over-weight, then he has been abused/neglected somehow, and most people experience trauma, anyway--and you challenged them, so he did what he thought was right and would earn his mother's love that he has never truly received before. How did you confront this woman? I want to applaud you for standing up for the child. When I have intervened, no one has ever cried. I witnessed a friend intervene once, and he was particularly aggressive about it. He shouted something to the effect of "HEY! Don't hit your kid!" across a fast-food restaurant dining area. It got really tense, and the guy wanted to fight. I am super glad that it didn't come to that. Seriously, though. It takes a great deal of courage to confront someone who is about to abuse their child. Good for you. I think that there are ways to go about it that will leave with the least amount of risk for yourself and still yield the desired effect in a child.

Gah, that's a tricky situation. I think what is a bit more important than having a woman around--except for breastfeeding--is having a feminine presence around. I am definitely no expert on this, so take what I say with a grain of salt. What I have heard is that what matters the most is having two parents, versus having a mother and a father. It would be exceptionally wise to have a close female friend for the child, too. The genetics are something that you'll have to resolve with your partner. If you think that you and your partner may favor your genetic offspring more, that might be something to explore in therapy. I would recommend individual therapy as opposed to couples for this. I hate to add the list, but another important factor and concern would be the environment of the womb in which a child is raised in. Obviously, if the mother is doing crack and drinking vast amounts of alcohol during the pregnancy, that will affect the baby. But other, more subtle factors will also influence the baby, such as if the mother is overweight, experiences a great deal of stress during the pregnancy, etc. It does seem like you want what is best for your potential future child(ren). The simple fact is that even the best parents make mistakes. Stef has made mistakes while raising Izzie. What separates a great parent from the rest is that a parent admits to those mistakes and helps correct them. If you want what is best for your future child(ren), I would strongly encourage therapy if you're not already in it. All of our parents make mistakes while we are growing up. Unfortunately, some of those mistakes do not get resolved and have a lasting negative impact on our lives, and when we have children, we repeat those same mistakes, passing off the dysfunction to the next generation. You're already very in tune with the genetics and philosophy, the psychology is just as important. The great thing about being men is that we can have children at any time during our lives. Women are the only ones with biological clocks.

I definitely agree that the emotions have a huge influence on the beliefs of an individual. I know that this applies to myself as well, where I would hold a belief because I wanted it to be true or because it felt good. Everybody does it. I think that a huge factor in why this happens so much is the trauma that we all experience when growing up. A lot of our parents do not use rational arguments for why we should do things as children. We learn to obey because of emotional reasons--our parents are angry at us, and we are scared. There is an emotional investment in these beliefs, because if they are not true, that may be tragic, horrible things about us, our parents, and our childhoods. I think that the more healthy and connected an individual is, the less there is a debate and the more there is a discussion. When I interact with people who might disagree with me on an issue who are fairly mentally healthy, I do not often experience them as having an emotional investment in some of the ideas that we talk about. Of course, they might be aware that they have an emotional investment and can deal with that accordingly on their own time or set it aside to continue and refine the discussion. To challenge a belief of this nature, as you mentioned, is really destabilizing to an individual. I know that my life was an absolute wreck while I was fundamentally challenging what I had been taught and what I believe. Not everyone is willing to face that, for sure. Not everyone can "survive" that. My perspectives on fighting have shifted dramatically throughout the years. I used to be opposed to fighting, but now I do see some value in it. I used to think that being in a fight means that I have failed in some capacity, and that fights should be avoided. I still try to attempt to avoid fights simply because I do not have anything to gain by them, and a fight is likely to entrench someone further. But I would have no qualms about emotionally/intellectually crushing someone if they pushed things far enough, and physically too if they were threatening my life. Fight in my mind has become a very neutral term. When human beings hunted, they were fighting against animals. Living is a fight against the elements and rigors and demands of reality. In several ways, it is a good thing to fight. I also mock and ridicule ideas, but when someone I care about holds a belief that I would mock, I hold off on doing that. This person is important to me, and this idea is important to them, and therefore I would be able to gain a better understanding and connect with this person if I were to listen and to understand to the reasoning behind the belief. If it is someone that I do not respect or care about, I tend not to mock the idea either and simply just leave the conversation because I don't see anything to gain from engaging further. I definitely agree with you that someone people just cannot handle the truth, and that being forced to accept it would fundamentally destroy their lives as they know it. I leave these people alone and let them live their fantasies, simply because they might lash out at me, I have nothing to gain from it, and because reality always wins out, and these people will experience the consequences of their beliefs with or without my intervention.

It's one thing to have the intellectual understanding of something, but sometimes the emotions don't follow. In my experience, it's typically because the issue is far more complex than just what we see at the surface level. It's hard to let go of old relationships. Some of the slip away with ease, but the most important ones do not. It's typically a much slower death, realizing that the relationship has an expiration date.

Ah the matrix, what a cinematographic work. This is a good analogy too. I think it likely more clearly expresses the duality of victim and perpetrator than my analogy that I gave earlier. Some people are clueless and do harm--for which they are completely responsible for--some people are clued in and do harm. I definitely have seen people entrench themselves in a conversation, and it's usually an aggressive, angry fight. I definitely like to avoid those types of interactions. I've definitely seen flip-flops too. Those are tremendously frustrating. I always try to look at the actions of people as opposed to what they are saying. I don't know about these people in particular who you are interacting with as there may be other factors involved, but people who conform are the normed and are placing a higher value on the tribe than the truth. If the freedom movement ever becomes mainstream and widely accepted, this would work in our favor. But, it's just human nature. To go against the tribe is to risk death and/or exile. It might not be worth it to push someone to face making such a decision. I don't really do it any longer. I have lost friends due to political views. Some of them were because I was too aggressive. Some of them were because they ridiculed my ideas and arguments--allowing me to discover that they weren't really good friends in the first place. Some of them slip away just because we no longer have much in common. Has something like that ever happened to you, where you have shared with someone and they have betrayed you? I know that happen with my own family. I would both want to share my position on something and guard it. If they knew what I wanted, then I might receive it, but they also might use it against me. Gah, that sounds like a nightmare. I would not bother, personally. I don't know what the best path is for you, though. In my mind, these men have been neutered, especially if they have married themselves to fat, emasculating feminists. The effort to break them away from that would be way greater than what I would be willing to put in, especially as it would be destroying a marriage--for better or for worse--which would be a huge hurdle to leap. Even then, it might not stick.

This guy makes a great point. I am not going to listen to someone who is not my friend. If someone hates or despises me, it doesn't matter how truthful it is what they are saying, I am not going to listen to them. I think that's only reasonable, and most people will do the same. I have had friends who are statists long after I was introduced to philosophy. I genuinely try to be friendly with everyone that I meet. Here and there, I might drop a "It just seems like every problem the government tries to fix, they end up making worse." I try to maintain the perspective that we're pretty much all on the same side, and statists are like battered spouses desperately clinging to their partner. To turn it into a me versus you situation is to entrench them in their beliefs even further.

I realize that this is late, and that you probably have already shared the research with him, but I want to say that a major factor and criticism of those studies is the fact that they are correlational in design. The best answer that a researcher can receive from such a design is "X is highly linked with Y." It may be that x causes y, y causes x, or z causes x and y. If he is an intelligent man, he might have realized that that these studies were correlational in nature, and so do not outright prove that spanking is harmful. For a study to do that, it must be experimental. Children would have to be spanked as part of the study, which would be highly unethical which is why this topic is so contested, as there are no studies that can outright prove one way or the other. There are some people who are just going to hold onto spanking. I recently had an interaction with some others where I brought up the topic of spanking. I think that a few methods that I found to be effective were to address that spanking was assault. Of course, doing this is very polarizing, because people don't want to be labeled child abusers. He was likely spanked, which means that he will infer that you are also calling his parents child abusers as well. I tried to shift the focus away from this label stating that while these people might be good parents in some areas, they could be better parents, and isn't that what they are fundamentally trying to achieve by preparing their children for the real world, leaving resources in a will, etc.? Using violence teaches obedience to those who use violence. Children who are spanked learn to hit others who do wrong, according to objective standards or their own personal beliefs. A child who is spanked will try to hit back, because he/she sees that the parent is doing wrong by harming him/her. Anyway, best of luck with this. I know it's a really difficult topic to broach with others. My advice is really to try your best not to turn it into a fight. People get more entrenched in their beliefs when that happens.

I think that there is definitely a fine line between criticism and insult, and at times, criticism does breach into insult. To be good at taking an insult is to be either really numb or able to deflect it really easily (realize how it doesn't apply and how absurd it is). At least, the latter is something that I have found happen when I've been able to shrug off an insult with alacrity. But, I do think that criticism has a time and a place, and the delivery is important as well. On the topic in general, I do think that insults among friends or peers is a misguided attempt at male-bonding. Growing up, I definitely had the premise that you could insult your friends, but you could not insult other people. My friends and I could be particularly vicious with each other, taking pride when we came up with something particularly cutting. I know that all of us were spanked growing up and verbally abused as well. I think that from our parents, we learned that to love a person is to attack them. As men, we wanted to show that we loved/cared about one another, but there were other cultural rules that we had to follow, such that we could not be physically affectionate, be very emotional expressive, etc. So, we resorted to this other method that we learned from our childhoods. I lived in Asia for four years. I couldn't speak the languages, but it really did seem like guys were doing the same thing. It's pretty rough there, children being smacked out in public.

Feel free to contact me if you're interested in working together. Personally, I'm not too interested in trying to convince you to work with me. I know that I offer a valuable service, and I trust that you'll be able to judge whether you value what I have to offer. I would be more than happy to answer questions that you have, though. We could chat over skype or you could email me. A few good questions that I can think of might be what is the therapeutic process like, asking me about areas that I have experience in, and how I have applied the therapeutic process to my own life and grown from it (just to get you thinking). My email address is: [email protected]

I can see that you're struggling and really lost. As great and wonderful as this community is, I do not recommend opening up and sharing with just anyone who associates themselves with FDR. There are a lot of lost, broken people here, and their attempts to help--as genuine as they may be--may only add to the confusion and harm. Honestly, I think that working with a therapist would be best for you with this. Of course, I am going to recommend myself; I have been a practicing therapist for a year and half now. You list a number of issues, and I think that working through all of those issues is not something that a friend can provide. A friend is an equal. If you are broken and lost, the people who you will be attracted to will be broken and lost. It will be the blind leading the blind. I say this with all due sympathy and experience, I really think a therapist would be best for you. Further more, I myself have also experienced a death of which I have been numb about. I have worked through the death of my infant twin sister. I had been numb about her death through most of my life, and now I have grieved her death. I think that I can help you connect with your feelings--which you need to experience the drive and joy and tragedies of life. I would like to work with you. If we are ill-suited, I would be glad to refer you another therapist. I welcome the distrust that you have, it is preventing you from getting attacked and mixed up even further by people who have no idea what they are doing or have ill-intentions. Committing to therapy is likely going to shake up your life and will really challenging process to go through. Not everyone wants to or can handle it. But if you work with me, I will try to see that the change is for the best. Welcome to the community, I see that this is your first post. It's a big one =]

Hey man, I can definitely relate to what you're going through. In my own attempt to break from my parents, I had to borrow money from friends as I could not rely on my parents nor my extended family for support. Tragically, this was a factor that destroyed one of my friendships. Even after a few years, I had to rely on my grandparents for some support at times. It's really difficult for a young adult to get some solid ground beneath his feet in this day and age. I have some other friends and people that I know that are struggling with this as well. Tough choices to make. It seems to me like you're experiencing shame about being on welfare. I don't know much about you, but I think that if you're the kind of person who feels bad about being on welfare, you're not the kind of person who would be a leach. Welfare is argued to help people who will eventually support themselves. I think that this is the case for you, that you're not going to be taking welfare for the rest of your life and that you actually have something to contribute to society. My first couple of years breaking from my parents were all about finding a holding pattern that I could maintain while going to therapy and journaling. I don't think that being on welfare is something that deserves shame, as the reason why you are so ill-prepared for the real world is not your fault but due to the abuse that you suffered from your parents. It's like being forced to pay for something twice (or more).

Well, if your attempt was to start a conversation, it certainly did fail =] But I agree. Failure is a blessing. It sucks in the moment, but it gives us the opportunity to grow and progress. It's tragic though, the standards that we are held to as children, where failure means experiencing disapproval or punishment from the people who are our entire worlds.

I don't quite follow, but would love if you would explain that.

Gah. I'm really sorry about that, man. I have experienced similar thoughts about my own relationship with my mother and my parents. I broke from them in 2011, but I've been still been breaking from them mentally and emotionally ever since. If you are being vindictive, where did you learn that behavior from? If you are cruel, where did you learn cruelty? If you are manipulative, where did you learn manipulation? I really get the sense that this doubt and uncertainty is to her favor and advantage. If she is truly manipulative as you say, she would be incompetent if she didn't instill you with doubt and distrust of your own experiences, emotions, and conclusions. It's fascinating that you care about where you are acting cruelly toward her. You are different than her, because this is something that you care about, and it seems like she is using your desire to be good against you. This doubt is trying to keep you tied to her. I don't know your situation, though. If you're looking for a therapist who has experienced situations similar to what you have been through, is focused on helping you achieve what is best for you, and has helped other people sort their own family situations out, I would love to offer my services.

We all do. We all needed one to survive our childhoods.

In regards to the original post, If part of your motivation is to be better than others--for the intent of achieving status and esteem--that is something that you can explore. I know that I experienced something similar. I believed that because I knew so much about myself, that I was better than other people, and I received a sort of satisfaction in knowing that I was better than them. But that wasn't my only motivation for pursuing self-knowledge. I really, truly doubt that it is the only reason why you are doing it--there are easier ways to achieve status and superiority over people--but it is a factor that you could explore. My perspective has shifted, I am more of myself than they are of themselves.

I think that it would be entirely unnecessary and evoke a major backlash. Even people with a hint of true self who have a potential to grow and heal may feel uncomfortable at some of Stef's videos and outright reject them on initial exposure. The backlash would be major, especially if they are compelled or compulsed to sit through it in some manner that is not of their own design, which would be required to reach a certain level of discomfort. Also, there are easier ways to tell if someone is in their defenses, such as focusing on oneself and resolving the trauma that creates the false self, healing, and strengthening the true self. At this point, I am pretty aware of other people's defenses, and I have a good idea of when to respect them and when I can sneak something true in under the radar. The first time that I listened to one of Stef's videos, I was turned off. It was a traffic jam with one of the absolute worst audio-qualities that he has released. A couple months later--exploring other podcasts on critical thinking--I decided to give Stef a shot again.

Uh... Yeah. Speaking of my own experiences of putting on a show for others... Yeah, I was pretty miserable on the inside. I was doing it because I simply couldn't handle the pain and suffering that I was experiencing on the inside, and I had to do all that I could to manage it. I imagine that something similar happens with other people who do this. We lie to others about how we are because we lie to ourselves about who we are so that we can keep going, at least, that was my own experience and motivation for it.

Great post. People who offer therapy who haven't done enough work themselves do their clients a real disservice. I like to think that I have done enough work on myself to offer value to others with minimal interference from my own unprocessed trauma. But, I would strongly recommend to anyone looking for a therapist to ask a ton of questions to a therapist before you start to get really vulnerable with them. It is something that I always offer my clients before they make any kind of commitment, financial or otherwise, and to not allow such questions is highly suspicious in my eyes. Ask them, how long have they been doing their own work. What is the most difficult things that they've had to process and experience. What kind of problems have they work on (self-attack, depression, eating disorders, addiction, etc.)? Really grill them. When you hire a therapist, you place your life in the hands of another individual. Give it to someone who values it as much as you do. I would add that quality therapists--when encountering areas that they have yet to process enough--would be able to recognize and realize what is going on inside of them, set it aside (this is not the same as dissociating), and return to their true self in order to focus on the client. That said, they will not have as great of insight as someone who has processed the area, but they can still provide value to their clients. In addition, I would it's not the role of the therapist to (re)parent a client, instead a therapists seek to help their clients reparent themselves. To enter into a therapeutic relationship is to displace the balance of power, and having the therapist enter a parenting role is to further displace it, opening up more room for corruption, trauma, and therapists using their clients to suit their own needs. A bad therapist is a great harm, as it may turn people off from good therapists, which can help and heal.

I'm sorry to hear that man. I can only recall a handful of moments where I received anything resembling love and affection from my parents. I expect that it'll be hard to connect to, but well worth while. Love is an emotion, just like anger, sadness, and fear. It'll come naturally to you if you clear the way to it. Those things are not love, but they are displays of love. It's an emotion. Just like how you can shape your thoughts to incite or dampen anger, the same can be done with love. But we don't have any real control over it. I think about how I experience love internally. I think that the best way that I can translate it to another person is that it is a joy-response based solely on the fact that something is alive/exists. I think that might be pretty universal. My particular experience is a feeling of warmth and comfort to that entity, and often my arms seize up so that I'm hugging myself.

No, because even if a kid isn't virtuous, I still think that they deserve love. Children don't have moral responsibility (though they do develop more responsibility the older and more capable they become). I just think that it's a fundamental axiom "Children deserve to be loved." They deserved to be listened to, played with, hugged, held, told stories too, fed delicious meals, spoiled with treats, encouraged to be independent, etc. no matter what they do or who they are, simply because they're children. That includes the immature aspects of ourselves; they are frozen in time and pain because they didn't receive the love they needed. Personally, I don't like the definition "Love in an involuntary response to virtue." I've met people who are virtuous and I haven't loved them. I've respected them and admired them, but not the warm and fuzzy feelings that I associate with love. It's a response that internal to me. I don't know if you experience the same thing that I do, or if I can describe it to you and have it mean the same thing.

To love yourself as though you are a child and deserve to be loved, no matter what. To realize and accept that your failings and struggles are mostly a result of not being loved in the first place.

Daniel Mackler has some songs. I think that Lullabies for the Inner Journey is probably exactly what you're looking for. Mackler doesn't have the greatest singing voice, but the lyrics are mighty powerful. His music is here: http://wildtruth.net/music/ Steven Frannsen also has some music. A lot of his music is inspired from his own exploration process, so the content and stories in the lyrics are aspects of himself that he's discovered. Timehealer is the one that most fits the bill, and rumor has it that he may be releasing a new album here soon. Here's a link to his page: http://www.nurturingtruth.com/free-music/

I've tried to connect with the pains from my own parents neglectful behavior towards me. I've also found it to be a struggle. As a general rule, I try to side with my inner child, and the child that I was. If I needed something--like to be played with, to be listened to, for someone to be curious about my interests--then I deserved it from my parents. As a general rule, it seems that most people are more unjustly forgiving to their parents than the opposite. The doubt could be a defense mechanism to prevent you from exploring too deep and causing a great destabilization--because that is what it seems to be doing here. That's an area that I would explore. Neglect is so hard to categorize and connect with, because it's a chronic absence of a positive, not the infliction of an explicit negative. Regardless, you deserved what your parents failed to give you. The great thing--and painful and sad thing--is that if there is something that you haven't connected to from your childhood, then there are chances that it's being recreated somehow. The way that your father is bashing your interest and comparing you to a highly deranged figure is likely an echo of things that happened when you were a child, which I'm really sorry to hear. I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a resource to offer you for further reading, but I'm coming up empty. I'll let you know if I do.

Daniel Mackler and Fred Timm have produced a book that contains a 12-step type method for self-exploration. There are a lot of good questions in it to ask yourself and journal about. It's called "From Trauma to Enlightenment." Is there something in particular that you would like to explore? Like, shame, boundaries, punishment, narcissism, etc.