RyanT

I reckon we are misunderstanding each other a bit here mate, Certainly I wasn't suggesting he should or shouldn't or indeed has any obligation to do anything, but quite simply that the more we peruse reason, virtue and self-knowledge in our lives, the more likely we are to find previously satisfying relationships deficient? .

Yep, I'll hold my hands up my first sentence probably does fall under 'argument by adjectives', but my point is simply that FDR and TYT are going after very different demographics and at the minute, there's represents a bigger share of society...that's just a fact. To put it another way, you could be a brilliant author and write a great romance novel about two sensitive, well balanced people falling in love in a deep meaningful relationship, but you'd have to be bordering on delusional, to beat yourself up if it didn't outsell, '50 Shades of Gray'? So like I said, we can all step up our game, ........but lets be realistic.

Yeah but TYT's is basically a group of under informed, over opinionated libtards yammering on about 'popular issues' ...with simplistic certainty. Almost the polar opposite of FDR, so a little hard to compare? but certainly I'd agree we can all step up our game, for my part I've started donating and also try to post Stef's vids on various forums ect especially ones where I know it wont just be, 'preaching to the choir'.

Seriously WTF I don't know why the judge didn't just give him 2 slaps ...one on each wrist and have done with it. completely pathetic.

Makes sense to seek professional opinion and treatment before labeling yourself a psychopath, and giving up entirely on growth and connection? I could be way of the mark but whenever I hear people expressing such sentiments I always get this really strong parental alter ego vibe.

Yeah, does seem pretty counter-intuitive, Purely my conjecture but... Basically living together as man and wife, without actually being married is kinda ambiguous, and that's usually where things go awry, 'are you in, or are you out?' A bit like if you were dating/seeing/sleeping with someone for like 6 months before you 'officially became an item', Why? ....Just seen the articles Mike linked, http://www.livescience.com/5561-prenuptial-cohabiting-spoil-marriage.html

..Yeah, I reckon 'a little creeped' is a really good term for it, I'm finding it tricky to pin down 'what exactly' would provoke that feeling in me too, but certainly in that situation I'd find their behavior rather....pathological. 'Why do you want to know stuff about me that you don't want me to know that you know?' might be a question I'd ask, (if that sentence makes sense?) For me it'd suggest she had issues around power and control, which are obviously red flags in themselves.

Did the youtube video not show for you either? ..thought it was just my laptop playing up. try again, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBOEBWO-yA

Not suggesting or advocating anything, just a friendly warning...... 'To See the Farm is to Leave It'

Yeah I've had very similar arguments with past friends, I remember this guy I knew, a proper mystic, who said something along the lines of, 'western philosophers never sit there and wonder why the grass is green' So I explained scientists have determined different molecules absorb certain colors of light, while reflecting others and in the case of chlorophyll, that's 'green'. and he just sat there and said 'yeah...but that's just science talk' At the time I just got this weird feeling, certainly didn't know what to say, but looking back I think I realized, he was obviously getting some needs met, by imagining the world around him,to be totally random, incomprehensible and without any certainty. ..which was probably a projection of his early childhood home. and indeed we'd talked about that a lot and from what he said both his parents were, 'old hippies' who did drugs while he was growing up, which must have been, absolutely terrifying and bewildering for a child.

Well after you're last post mate, pretty much everything you said before... 'I AM NOT A FULL ANARCHIST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO SEE ME AS A FREAK AND LOSE THEIR RESPECT!' but that really took a lot of balls to admit, seriously respect you're honesty. Sadly a some point most of us have to make the choice between logic-virtue-morality and friends and family, and I don't blame anyone who chooses the latter. If that's the route you're going to take though, my only advice would be do it now, certainly don't call-in on the 26th of June and have that conversation with Stefan. Leave now while we're in the realm of nice cosy abstract theories, because once you start examining those personal relationships, there really is a 'point of no return'..... When, chances are; You'll see them as the freaks and find them impossible to respect, which basically means that's you're 'support network' gone, so of course you're going to need to find a new one. ......but then you realize all you've ever known is that dysfunction, so the only way out of that state of limbo is though tons of self work, and it's really painful and 'humiliating' and totally panic inducing, and if you end up going to therapy it may also be very expensive. With absolutely no grantee they'll be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Certainly know I've spent a lot of the last year or so, wishing I'd taken the blue pill.

I down voted your post there, mainly because I just feel you're being dishonest and willfully ignorant, when you're clearly a smart guy..... Neither Stefan, nor anyone else here has suggested we should (even if we could) wave some magic wand/have a big revolution and dismantle the state overnight. Indeed most in this community accept the transition to a free society will be a multi-generational evolution in society, which has been explicitly stated to you on numerous occasions... Yet you continue to post as if this wasn't the case? Also you made a statement of fact that, 'Anarchy has lead to a lot of deaths in history because bad people have abused it' Now in the 20th century alone, rough estimates suggest the state was responsible for 200 million deaths, is that not 'a lot'? How many people would you say have died as a result of anarchy?

Well let's be honest with each other here mate, by 'people believe' do you mean 'I believe'?

I hear you....My favorite's got to be, 'you think too much'.What a creepy little statement?

Well 'use of force' is a foggy term, if someone tries to hit you and you grab their arm, that's force?Whereas the government claims a monopoly right to initiate the use of force.Which in most cases is the origins of the chaos...What is it, like 95% of robberies are commited to fund drug addictions?Not to mention all the millions murdered, dispossessed etc by the state.

Certainly how I see it. 'Preachy' is basically just one of those buzzword/magic spells that allows people to avoid examining morality, A bit like, 'Judgemental' 'Intolerant' 'Unforgiving' 'Extreamist' 'black and white thinking', At the end of the day you have to go back to that point, 'Why are they actually criticizing me? Do they understand and agree with my goals? Or do they just want to sabotage me?'

Certainly considering the option,I honestly don't feel it's so much that as if she carn't contact me by phone that gives her the pretext to call round my house?And with the way she was talking in our last text exchange, I would much rather if she does get in touch, it's not face to face and would be recorded.

Wow thanks mate, that really cut deep, That last argument with her totally blew my mind, a lot of truths came out in our rantings. ..obvioulsy most of it is still sinking in. Certainly think we need to stop having any contact with one another, After this reckon it'll be at least a few months before she texts me. So gives me time to get some work in, so I won't be tempted. Definitly going to get into therapy soon too, been making the excuse for months I don't have the money, but my work situation has changed to the point where I can comfortably afford it. Also be really interested to check out some of these exit-BDSM forums, had quick look on google but couldn't find anything, can you recommend any?

I remember somebody (pretty sure it was Rainbowjamz) saying the other night how he gets really frustrated when people want to jump stright to huge complex abstracts theories on how to organize society rather than focusing on the real work on self knowledge and personal relationships. Reading through this thread I can really see where he was coming from. Way I look at it; When might we see a truly free society? Maybe in 100, maybe in 1000 years When can we have freedom in our personal lives? Maybe in a only few years if we work hard enough. Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

Ah definitly something I've struggled with in the past, Always found this one really helpful.

Funnily enough that's an idea I was kicking around last night at work, Statists in general and socialists in particular nearly always attack anarchists and libertarians with the old 'argument by adjectives' specifically 'you're all greedy' 'you're all selfish' ect but if wanting to own your own home....or your own body, did make you 'selfish' then just how much more selfish would you be, for wanting in effect, own the homes and bodies of people you've never even met?

I've heard some fucked up childhoods mate but that really chilled me to the core. First and foremost serious kudos to you for sticking up for your sister like that, tremendous courage, whatever they did they clearly didn't break your humanity. Can really relate to your statement, 'I don't know what is wrong with me.' At least I think, that from what you've said you've actually a pretty good idea (and accurate) what's wrong, but that people around you have added the 'with me' bit to serve their own ends. I mean when you think about it, it's that analogy Stef uses a lot 'I don't know how to get in to a normal/non-abusive relationship.' isn't much different from saying, 'I don't know how to conduct a conversion in fluent Mandarin' Neither do I, but obviously in the latter case, we don't self-attack, or at least if for some reason we did, most people around us would say stuff like, 'What do you mean you're stupid? Not like you grew up in a Chinese household, sure if you took some lessons....' Whereas with a dysfunctional history it's all, 'look OK you didn't have the best childhood but.....get over it', 'are you going to be a victim your whole life?' .....It's sick.

Thank you all for your responses, The original post came literally an hour after the row, when my head was still really messed up so imagine it was pretty hard going for people. Certainly I considered thinking on it for a few days before posting, but at the same time I wanted to communicate my thoughts and emotions in the moment, ‘warts and all’ as it were. First off should probably make it clear I’ve decided it’s best I don’t continue to have any contact with her, at least until I’m in much better place myself and even then this looks very unlikely.That’s pretty much a given really. Someone also PM’ed me suggesting she may have a borderline personality disorder, which is in fact what she’s being diagnosed with, a pretty vital piece of information, I’m questioning now why I chose to leave it out of the original post. No doubt part of the reason was to attempt to take some responsibility away from myself for getting into the situation knowing her condition. Certainly the logical thing to have done when I found out about it (months ago) would have been to research all I could on the topic but there again I deliberately avoided sources of information? tjt is quite correct in that a lot of the times I did feel like I wanted out of the relationship, this pattern of falling out and then her texting me weeks or even months later has been going on for about 2 years now and whenever she has got back in touch, it's always come with a caused me a bit of angst. Certainly when she's not been in contact I've always felt happier for it but then when the inevitable happens I've always responded positively and fallen back into the pattern. Why that is? Well obviously the sex played a big part, especially since we shared a lot of the same kinks BDSM wise, I've experimented with other girls in the past, but with ‘Katrina’ it just felt like we were really on the same page. I remember she once sent me this meme; That basically sums up how it was between us, All these kinky fantasies I'd had since like puberty and suddenly I had very willing partner to act them all out with, turned out we'd even been going on some of the same websites. There was quite a lot of guilt on my part, knowing that these desires resulted directly from abuse she had suffered, as a way to rationalize the pain and turn it into pleasure. (Obviously a similar think was going on for me.) but we talked about it and figured that we both had these urges and what we where doing was a safe and consensual, way of dealing with them. At this point in time I'm not too sure about that, as there still remains a nagging guilt for me and I'm pretty sure some part of her quite resents me for being willing to 'cash in' would explain her need to paint me as something of a monster yesterday? That being said though, I do think there was something else keeping us together, When she first started coming round to my house she was very emotionally supportive and seemed to help a lot with stuff I was dealing with. My gran had pretty much raised me since I was a baby and even when I was younger seemed to act differently to my friends mums. I don't think she ever really wanted me to grow up and leave home, especially after my grandad died. I internalized that a lot, I wanted to make her happy...but at the same time I felt totally trapped. Then when I was 18 I met a girl and by 19 we were engaged, it was a really clingy relationship, 'I LOVE YOU FOREVER MORE THAN ANYTHING AND ANYBODY' type deal, which for a while felt like everything I'd always wanted. Then we started planning to get married, get a place, have kids and it dawned on me I was nowhere near ready for that. So we ended up breaking up. I didn't really know what to do with myself after that, and my gran was getting older and more frail so I just kinda sunk back into a little world of staying at home and looking after her, for about 2 years. So when she died part of me was devastated, the other part ecstatic, but that provoked a lot of guilt .. emotionally I was a right mess. ‘Katrina’s' job involves dealing with victims of trauma so obviously she was in her element there, consoling me, She also ironically opened my eyes a lot to how dysfunction both my parents were, as I said earlier while other people around me have always made excuses for their behavior or tried to rationalize it away she seemed to be really on my side, pointing out just how shitty it was. She was also really good company too and we'd talk a lot and did quite a lot of the couple things like go out for meals and stuff, which perhaps surprisingly she often insisted on paying for, given she earns quite a lot more than me. So there was that sense I was going out there and doing things that I'd been missing out on. Obviously though there's a lot of underlying unprocessed childhood trauma at the root of it all, Whenever I've thought about breaking from her in the past this has always provoked feelings that she'd go and be with someone else. There's always been a lot of jealousy between us and for me the though of her with another lad has lead to serious anger and violent thoughts. My mother has a very similar nature and when I was a baby her and my dad sold their house and moved in with her parents, that was the situation until I was 2 when she met up with a bloke she'd been out with as a teenager and started an affair, abandoning the family to go and live with him soon after. (Apparently she wanted to take me too but my grandparents intervened,saying if she did they'd disown her, so I continued living at there house with them and my dad. Going over to her house on weekends and she'd call over occasionally.) My dad was a complete mess, going out and getting wasted nearly every night and just pining for her, feels as if from like 2-5 he was constantly ranting to me about how she was the love of his life and how he was going to win her back and we'd have a big new house and go to Disneyland. yet at the same time he'd be telling me what a complete slag and whore she was, evil bitch, ......but then back to how much he loved her and wanted to get back together. Then obviously he totally hated the bloke she'd gone off with (always referring to him as the wimp), and there was this constant threat he was going to 'kick his head in'..which he never did. So can't help but see the old 'photocopier of family dysfunction' at work in my current situation? Certainly this whole thing's spurred me on to seek some sort of therapy,

(Warning very long) Well this certainly wasn’t the first thread I wanted to start on FDR and perhaps tomorrow I’ll wish I hadn’t but I just really needed to get this off my chest and perhaps get a little feedback from you guys, who knows maybe it’ll help others in a similar situation. (and to be honest make a permanent record should my mind ever get lead astray) Over the last couple of years my circle of friends and family has pretty much shrunken to nil, as again and again I put our relationships to the test and found them beyond repair. Perhaps I should have taken Stefan’s no doubt spot-on advice and consulted professional help (which I hope to do shortly) before going down this rout but I was just hitting so many points where I just couldn’t carry on any longer. Certainly I tried talking to my mother about my childhood, and all I got back was a huge flaming wall of excuses and appeals to sympathy, promises that we’d get family counseling followed by eerie silence from her end interspersed with random texts about nothing in particular….I just couldn’t go on. In spite of all this, (or perhaps because of my isolated state), for the last few months I’ve kept someone in my life who has absolutely no place being there, and what’s more I knew it….. I’ve known this girl, let’s call her ‘Katrina’ since we were about 12 but at school we moved in very different circles, she was one of the ‘brainy kids’, I was one of the ‘bad’uns’. Somehow however I managed to pass a decent number of GCSE’s and ended up studying A-levels at the local sixth form college where suddenly we were in the same social groups. I developed an attraction to her which established into the classic ‘friends zone’ scenarios I’m sure you’re all so familiar with. She had a whole host of problems and used me as her ‘secret keeper’ pouring her heart out over MSM (remember that?) while being a bitch to me in public. This came to ahead with some blazing row and for the last year there we ignored each other completely. Then the month before we were due to start University I was partying with some friends down in Essex when she called me from up here, were she was doing the same and drunkenly professed her love. We talked again and decided to go out, what’s more we discovered we both had very strong BDSM fantasies, me dominant and her submissive (which becomes important later). Anyway as I said she had a lot of issues, specifically around self-esteem (of course she wasn’t the only one) so there was no way she was turning down the opportunity to ‘cop off’ with every guy willing for the sake of a long distance relationship. She suggested we go ‘open’ I was having none of it. Fast forward 6 years (eek) (Throughout that time we’d kept in sporadic contact, that usually consisted of sexting, our situations preventing anything happening, she away at uni me caring for my elderly gran. Although thinking back there was usually the ritual involved that we were actually going to meet up, followed by her ‘getting cold feet’.) My grans died and left me the house and she’s got her master’s degree and’s living back at home. One afternoon ‘Katrina’ suggested coming around to see me. After previous experiences mentioned above I wasn’t expecting anything, and we sat and drank and talked for a while until she suddenly was sat on my lap, unbuttoning my shirt, kinky sex ensued.... We then entered a ‘honeymoon period’ were she was coming around daily, mostly for sex but increasingly we took an interest in each other’s lives. She seemed to show me a great deal of sympathy about my childhood and I hope I with hers which by all accounts was truly horrific. She was in therapy and seemed to be really in touch with her emotions and often offered helpful advice and motivation, which I greatly appreciated. Indeed she was the first person I'd ever told about it who hadn't gone off on one of those weird tangents, excusing my parents and pointing to the starving kids in Africa or guy down the road who's parents were both drug addicts. So when she apologized for the past and said she'd changed and grown, at that point in time I believed her and convinced myself I'd found a kindred spirit Alas this was not to last and arguments seemed to creep in. Both of us seemed to prefer to ‘storm off’ then resume things a few weeks later, with no reference to the fall out. Here’s where must truthfully say I saw huge red flags but brushed them away. ‘After all it’s only casual’. Then last week, when I can claim absolutely no ignorance she text me to say she wanted to see me, big head shut down and little head took over, but alas I was working nights so it was no-go. She seemed frustrated and we rowed again. I thought that was it for another few weeks, maybe next time I'd tell her where to get off...I deluded myself. When last night another text, could we meet today. ....Of course I said yes, knowing all I knew and forsaking all platitudes I'd made to the contrary, Then this morning she text me 'mother nature had interlined' (her words), so I was pretty deflated, (part of me wondered if this wasn't some sort of weird revenge for the other weekend never a healthy sign?) We carried on texting and again it soon got pretty sexual, 'don't make me all horny now!' she said, I replied that my offer still stood, I could 'man up'...she said 'it'll be messy' I said 'can put an old sheet down' she said 'it'll kill the mood'...anyway this led to her lecturing me about how she needed to feel comfortable to it only felt good in a loving relationship, she said I was a 'typical bloke' I was pretty wounded by this comment as it implied I couldn't give her what she needed/ she didn't feel comfortable around me. So retorted back 'Ah you love it really :P', (kinda like 'well why do you find me attractive then?') to which she said 'no I don't actually', then I said 'I thought that was part of the thrill' (again 'then why do you find me attractive?') She said 'your levels of immaturity astound me sometimes' Again that hurt, and still pretty clueless 'What do you want from me' I said 'emotional investment....when it suits you, I'm not some bloody ken doll you can take out of the box and play with in your barbie house' She proposed there was a difference between emotional investment and respect, I disagreed, how can you respect someone you don't care about? but alliterated I did respect her and her decisions. To which she said 'decent human beings treat people with respect without needing to emotionally care for them, clearly the only way you respect people is on your terms, you never were tolerant of others'. (which is a whole lot of sophistry? 'decent people' 'tolerance' 'on your terms') I said I didn't find that at all decent, that you could treat someone with respect yet simultaneously feel nothing for them, in fact I find it pretty sociopath. Looking back now this was the tipping point, A very long angry text followed in which she accused me of having totally no regard for her feelings, respect for her body and trying to pressure her into sex earlier, regardless of how she felt. With my 'you love it really :P' comment. Basically she was suggesting I had the same mentality as a rapist. I tried to explain what I had meant by my comments and assert my anger at what she had suggested but this was meet with another long text about how I had no respect for her body or her control over it, and again that I'd tried to pressure her into sex I explained again that it had been meant as a joke about me, trying to laugh off what she had said. (when of course if I had an ounce of respect in myself at that moment I'd have faced the comment head on) 'Well it's not very funny to someone who's being abused, maybe you should have thought of that before trying to 'laugh it off' she said. I was about to trudge on trying to explain myself but at the same time honestly started to really have doubts about my position, certainly those few comments (which only seemed to gain significance when I questioned her ethics) were 'out of character' for me. They were anything but RTR Did I respect her, really? If not was I just after sex at any cost. So could she be right? Does that make me a bad person like she said? Before I had chance to say anymore though she drops this bombshell. 'Please just leave me alone I have a nice night planned with someone and I'd rather not be in a bad mood!' WOW........ Obviously she....could have....possibly.... meant a friend, but.... my head was completely spinning at this point, Could all this have stemmed from her trying to justify to herself agreeing to meet 2 guys on the same day then giving me the elbow? I had had to end it there, 'Please return the favor I have a nice life planned and I can't be doing with this shit anymore' As you can probably tell I'm pretty lost at the moment....