PatrickC

If you desire virtue for yourself, then the only virtuous thing you can do is point out the positions as Ryan mentions above that this friend has put you in. This is piss poor behaviour on their part and I would expect to be called on it, if I ever attempted the same with any friend of mine.

Thanks Ribuck, another time hopefully. In case it's a crumby day weather wise. This seemed like an interesting exhibition to go see at the science museum. Just a thought of course.

Once upon a time there was a fairy tale in my head. Except it was only in my own head and no one elses.

Thanks for your thoughts chaps and ribuck you are most welcome to join us, despite not being on our previous call. May I ask ribuck what you would like to get from this experience? For me, it's about attempting to connect with good and rational people. Meeting potential likeminds and people of virtue seems like an important endeavour for future happiness, if that makes sense. Yes, 10 am could be a good time to meet up. Perhaps at Kings Cross.. But curious to hear from those further afield how they feel about such timing.

Good, perhaps you should move on then.

You are missing the point I think. UPB is not the theory, merely the formula for evaluating (moral) theories.. But loosely speaking yes, a consistent (moral) theory would be UPB.

Hey guys, apologies for not coming up with some definates recently regarding the meetup we tentatively planned, after the great call we had two weeks ago. I've recently had a rather busy schedule work wise. Anyway, I still think July 20th is an ideal date to meet up. Hopefully, weather permitting there is a rather delightful walk through Regents Park (north London) that we might enjoy. It's not particularly strenuous, although we will be climbing the only hill in London (well technically in north London) of Primrose Hill. Great views across London and we can probably have a picnic and a natter along the way. Here is a brief of the walk for those that are interested. I have a backup plan at a venue in East London, with plenty of room and a broad variety of food. This in case the weather is poor that day. Of course, if anyone has any better ideas for either scenario (weather wise) then please share. If the weather is bad I would still prefer an activity, but I've yet to come up with something thus far. So any ideas here would be appreciated. Anyway, if July 20th is really not feasible for some people, then let me know alternative dates you can make. EDIT - A further question that I didn't ask during our call that Tom insightfully discussed with me afterwards. I was curious to know what all of you hope to get from meeting up?

Perhaps the admins might be able to give members the option to not hide posts of down voted members, as a switch in their profile settings. That said, this topic has been gone over plenty and my experience tells me their isn't a lot of desire from them to change it from it's current state.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, the sorrow and empathy part makes a lot of sense.

Have you considered why you favour this questioning from outliers and why you yourself avoid risking controversy? Taking a devils advocate position is one thing, but suggesting that it's just an innocent question that only requires further exploration in one direction, whilst simultaneously avoiding ones own possible culpability is to ignore a great deal of knowledge. Tell me, why would you do that?

Wow Ruben, braveheart indeed. I was curious how you started crying too. I seemed to miss a large chunk of what was going on for you up to that point.

Yes, it has been a controversial position (for some) over the years. But a lack of virtue merely highlights the problem with those relationships. A lack of honesty and integrity cannot be foundations for trust amongst our friends and loved ones.

Nah, not buying this as a reason.

To add just a ditty to Kevin's already excellent response. UPB is a formula for evaluating universal moral theories.

DaVinci, you've been here a fair while now fella. This is philosophy 101 and you missed by 101 yards with this question.

Glad to hear it man. Tea and sympathy is one thing, but it's where the rubber meets the road that really matters. Regarding your ex girlfriends disquiet about Stefan and ancapistan, well I think you answered it yourself.

I'm curious why this distinction or concession has come up for you personally.

I can only read between the lines somewhat, but it was certainly good that you finally understood your own lack of empathy for her. But it's clear that there was certainly still a part of you that wanted to sabotage this relationship by not following through with your girlfriends desire for you to go to therapy. How can she possibly trust you to do the right thing in future? I mean you have my sympathy, romantic relationships are hard. Particularly if we have a history of unprocessed abuse or neglect. But take it from someone who has had to learn over and over again in this area. If you don't try to grasp the reasons for your history through self reflection or therapy. You are doomed to keep doing the same things time and time again in any future romantic relationships. And even after all that, it's still hard. Personally I would forget about your ex girlfriend and pursue therapy with a vengence. It will eventually put the despair you are feeling now into its proper and insightful place. Time to grasp the nettle and make this an opportunity to improve your future. Best wishes.

Yes, I'm with Brentb on this. People who are obviously distracted by some other activity whilst one is mid flow is clearly annoying. But I'm not sure I would want to direct 90% of my conversation gazing into the other persons eyes. There are people I've known that do this and can often come over as rather intense and weird. Somewhat akin to the 'over' firm (almost painful) handshake. However, I would agree that the obvious avoidance of eye contact is quite telling about a persons low self esteem.

I have no idea if you're interested Henry, but I'm co hosting an fdr meetup group in the UK. We are tentatively planning a meetup on July 20th in London if that's reasonably close for you. We are currently a small, but rational, 'getting to know' each other group. You are of course welcome. Just PM me if it takes your fancy.

Interesting topic. Regarding your Fathers chewing, I imagine it was a rational response to his hurling orders at you and your sister about your table manners. I imagine it now just reminds you of your father and how much that type of yelling irritated you. Just a thought of course.

Hi Henry, pleasure to meet a fellow countryman on the boards. Particularly one that is committed to breaking the cycle of abuse. I echo Kevin's sympathies regarding your history. Welcome to the boards fella!

As Wesley rightly points out spanking children has far more to do with alleviating parental anxieties than it does about behaviour modification. I've seen parents hit their children for wandering off, when it was clear they weren't taking a blind bit of notice of them. It was only after another adult guided them back to the parents that the spanking commenced. These parents clearly felt embarrased by their neglect of their own child. As a point of reference Stefan has mentioned many times that spanking leads to a short term gain for parents. I'm not sure what further concessions you can give (pro spanking) parents beyond that.

Well, sure it works for the parent in the moment. It certainly gets children under 10 to perform the way parents would like them too. Saying ones children are well behaved because of it is one thing. It's quite another to say traumatizing my children into my (parent) preferences works. It most certainly doesn't help the child other than to create fear in them.

yes, irony was never the strong point for academic feminists like Bindle..