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I see. Perhaps if you asked me to explain something specifically or showed a minimum of intent trying...(as I did with your comment, the highlighted part) I might. Otherwise, no worries, we don't have to communicate here but I'd prefer mutual respect if you don't mind. Barnsley

Thank you. Does the highlighted part stand for: a., Had you not initiated force itself/in self defense (either perceived, claimed, justified/not), you'd be not alive. b., Had your ancestors not initiated force itself/in self defense (perceived, claimed, justified/not), you'd be not alive. - - - - The way I live NAP is, my actions = my own, choosing to not act = also a form of action. The actions of my ancestors are theirs alone, therefore I can't be held responsible for them without the option for negotiation, or at least the addition of new universal standards. Barnsley

Welcome Kbot, Have fun, it's a great opportunity to put your ideas to the test. You'll be surprised at all the diversity of thought, (or lack of occasionally ). Barnsley

Hi Op, (Mishi2) Certainly I would be interested to know your thought processes and definitions describing NAP, so I could gauge your standing. If that's what you thought of doing and about to add more words to the thread, even better. Barnsley

Hi, I realise we are worlds apart, so much. I'm not even going to try to answer to what you wrote, other than saying I noticed the 'snarkiness' and lack of constructivity (I'm not going to unfold that neither, I'm happy if you treated it as 'another' opinion of someone.) Thanks but no thanks. Though, I guess it will invoke in people the right questions and I thank you for that. Have a good one, Barnsley

Good morning/evening @Elizbaeth I see. Sounds like deferral-ish, sort of. I wasn't sure, thanks for adding some info. Still it's my own view, the way I think: to share and do together what constitutes to a strong foundation for your parenting so that at later ages your kids will be naturally just wanting to listen to your advice both. Them being well-equipped to further develop critical thinking, supplemented with gentle guidance from virtuous parents. A parent who've raised their children with reason&evidence, negotiation will be trusted indefinitely more by their children, having an easier time 'getting through' to them, protecting them. (Again it's only my amateur assessment, but perhaps to me the things you've been exploring in the other thread are the core importance, pre-requisites to a two parents household. It's because, that's where you lay your own foundation first in order to demonstrate your and your relationships virtues. Remember when I mentioned the 'bullsh&t radar' kids come with? They are reeeally good observers and WILL copy any behaviour they perceive to be 'working'.) As a glimpse into an important aspect : The season and all, peaceful parenting and you guys being religious... have you listened to 3525,second caller? (a taster for one of the big questions you may encounter) Two things here. The first is that not doing something doesn't mean it's better already. Obviously, 'central brainwashing' should be replaced with true learning APPROPRIATELY GRADED TO AGE. Homeschooling is much more efficient simply because the focused attention(instead of being lost in a large class) and applied techniques(most appropriate approach regarding individual learning styles) netting a far higher retention rate/autonomy. If it's executed well, your kids will naturally start searching more of what they are good at. VERY IMPORTANTLY, certain mindsets ought to be, started to be developed as EARLY AS POSSIBLE. - responsibility (choices have consequences, mirroring it as parents, keeping your word/promises) - organisation skills (planning, follow through, feedback - as time goes on, gradually better decisions, industriousness) - self-knowledge (Who am I, why do I do things, why I think it's the best - again, as a parent showing a good example, your kids will use that template. Be aware of your own flaws for their sake too.) I'm writing these because at school kids don't learn about time-management, critical thinking, self-awareness, free market principles. However in life it's all that distinguishes someone successful/a mindful individual from a 'drone', a 'leaf carried by the winds'. The second half of my 'chirping' about homeschooling is the plethora of resources out there. You'd want to be prepared so read up, collect information, vet different approaches, speak with other parents with similar backgrounds. Do your homework ahead of time. Relinquishing control IS when you let others to indoctrinate your kids with what serves them and not your children. What traits/skills will they benefit from the most when they reach the age to start 'conquering the world'? Furthermore I don't think the word is suitable ('relinqu.. '). That's passive. Of course you'd want to make sure they are in the best possible scenario regarding their preparation for life. Though, like I said earlier... Your energy level and efficiency will greatly depend on the dynamics you formulate in your marriage. I think that's the pre-requisite to anything else parents do. Barnsley

Hi, Sure thing. You can choose between the public and private message options. Whichever you prefer. Barnsley

Hi thinkers and alike, What are the MORAL pros and cons when it comes to 'clickbait'? If some proportions are to be provably moral, what are good approximations/guidelines that could be put forward? Are there any important long term consequences? (due to the argument of the thread, was the title chosen as such, all for the intended constructive purpose of pure demonstration itself) - - - - I have done a search on the forum but haven't found any thread with this topic. - - - - Here's a Wikipedia definition Here's a(n) Urban dictionary definition Here's what Merriam-Webster 'says' - - - - my stance: I have no problem with it, unless I forgot to put on my 'thinking cap'. Though definitely have been always drawn to content where the claim (even if hyperbolic) have been greatly justified throughout the content and falls after overall consideration into the 'soft-clickbait' category. - - - - other, similar terms: 'link bait' 'sensational titles' 'SEO-d titles' (churnalism?) ... - - - - Have a good one, Barnsley

Hi @smarterthanone While I agree that 'exploitation' or 'capitalising on a business opportunity' isn't necessarily a bad thing. and 'What's one man's meat, is another's poison.' Couldn't be your example be applied to let's say the tobacco industry? (I still smoke, but slowly giving it up. - so I'm a bit hypocrite here, just for full disclosure.) I found what you wrote analogous... I'm saying this because it doesn't take much to realise, engaging in porn or lewdity has the strong tendency to promote objectification, 'shortcuts' to endorphin/adrenaline production (therefore/and lying by omission), what would be otherwise a process of courting is stripped down to a 'standalone' commodity. I'm basing my assumptions furthermore on the high prevalence of tattoos(self inflicted pain, marking, attention seeking... etc) , lack of virtues being involved(generally there's little to none 'hero arc' or 'character development' being rewarded for by a virtuous partner... etc) , illusory nature (reality doesn't match screen character, fluidity between the acting industry...where having honesty/integrity isn't beneficial)... so on. Don't get me wrong, it's not the fault of the porn industry that people consume their products, or the tobacco industry's for that matter. I'm only saying that the 'end doesn't justify the means'. If porn actors : a., start having sex at a younger age b., tried more variety of substances, consume more mind-numbing drugs like weed c., willingly put themselves into the proximity of STDS by the two mentioned above d., capitalise on a human desire that's easier to turn into addiction, given how our brains are wired(especially men's).. Shouldn't we be reeeealy cautious exposing ourselves to whatever they do, given the high probability of missing or diminished 'moral compass'? I hope I could put forward meaningful doubts and arguments. Barnsley

I strongly believe, this new video is a must for anyone following this thread. I have watched it twice already. (fascinating, eye-opening and straightforward) Stefan Molyneux & Scott Horton - Endless War Quote from the link's description : "Scott Horton is the managing director of the Libertarian Institute, the host of Antiwar Radio and the Scott Horton Show, the Opinion Editor of Antiwar.com and the author of “Fool’s Errand: Time to End the War in Afghanistan.”

Hi @MCM Perhaps I could chime in by saying ' The best time to start was years ago, the second best is now and the third is ASAP. ' Fractions can be bought for as little as not even a cent. for reference, the current value of crypto Barnsley

as in... - consciousness is a 'gift/value to me'. - no risk = no gain = no applied effects of existence = no different to inanimate, outside perceivable (could be, but why waste time) - opportunity = a chance to fulfil potential and... maybe more... maybe, though very hard = 'cost of challenge' if pre-requisites met. Barnsley

Hi @JamiMacki Man, those are some brave words and attitude. Thumbs up on your constructive approach. Recently Jordan B Peterson's had an interview with a Swedish journalist and perhaps you'd want to watch the video entirely (or at least starting from 00:39:30) I don't believe, the only reason as to why transgenderism exists is due to social constructs but certainly it doesn't help if propaganda is being employed heavily by any government. (I'm approximating a point here) ' Parents perceive the sex of their children a risk. Girls can be girls or boys. Boys are seen problematic. They can't really be boys lately. ' Barnsley

And another... This is about the whole subject, the overall arc. (bridging over a problem by applying constructive focus) Why bother trying to push an immovable object, when an unrelenting force couldn't do it. At a certain point, giving up trying, stopping clinging is the very best one can do. (opportunity cost, life won't wait it's constantly going on, what if instead the door you could use the window) What if we focused on the existing possibilities, creating new approaches that will lead to a near identical, desired outcome? How's a smart person (I mean it) such as yourself allowing his talents to get waisted in the 'waiting hall'? How have the companies deserved your skills and abilities? How are you an inspiration to other intelligent/hard working individuals seeing you 'bounce' back time after time? Something is not visible here. But I honestly want to help. I sympathise. Barnsley

... I wonder how you think about my other points but in the meanwhile an observation. Isn't this (quoted) a proof just how little those merits are perceived as value(in that particular type of employment)? It's really mind-boggling to me but can there be another logical conclusion? I know you asked for hard data underpinning said outcome but since I can't and have a simple point to make... What do you think if people, the majority, generally being accepted have any entrepreneurial experience and if that number has been increasing or not? If there was incentive, why it wouldn't shift towards? Isn't what government and the professions closely related mirror by homogenising? (colonial mentality?) I'm reminding you of your own assertion regarding the more capable representing a 'flight' risk, less probably coerced into the mold that the company has in mind for the applicant. And while sure, the re-training cost is lower, so is the higher likelihood of undesirable independent traits, having to put up with someone who WON'T-/CAN'T- 'not think for themselves' ... or am I mischaracterising it? Barnsley

Hi @ShindouHikaru Ouukeey... That's also your free choice. Have fun on your own, I'll wait until constructivity is present. Have a good one, Barnsley P.S (Who's 'Barney'?)

Before I proceed, let me ask you to describe how do you perceive our interaction? (other than it's bare minimum form) Are you satisfied? Yes, No? Any suggestions? How do you perceive my kinda lightened tone? (this is my standard) I would like to know. Thanks. Well, I don't think that's possible. I'm not saying you aren't saying what you think is true, but let me make an analogous claim... (copying the logic) (1) 'I can distinguish ponies from Arabian horses on photos but when I am in the stables I can't tell them apart.' (2) 'I can tell if someone is smiling, but for some reason I am unable to know what the favourite colour of a person is by looking at him/her.' ---- a bit of commentary on the 3rd---- (3) Assessing different types of virtues of different people require different types (speaking, watching them in action, seeing what/how their interaction affects the/their surrounding) and times (at work, leisure, relaxed, excited...) - like I said, a trained observer let's pass no meaningful details, concludes the essence and does it reliably continously. I don't think assessment is always akin to a 'laser-scanning'... short burst, millimetre precise. However with practice you can achieve a very keen 'eye', because obviously it's sight, accessing memory, empathy, first principles and cultural framework... etc. all together. The good thing is, our brain if we train it will just 'magically' coalesce it into a certainty. Nope. Actually, the online world has no value to humans without the majority of existence outside of it. If you wanted to sabotage a person's personality development, you'd only need to increase the time they spent online compared to living outside of it. Would you do that to yourself? Would you sabotage your own progress? If your answer was yes, speaking with me sort of lost it's value to the both of us. As an analogy, having never been to the USA but having seen many thousands of pictures of it holds exactly the value of seeing any other thousands of pictures might hold. Same as with fantasies vs. plans people actually pursue and make an effort in, physically do stuff. One's always going to be static, illusory. I suppose you know which one. No. What I meant was related to asking questions. Not having questions, doubts. No. Something positive you're already doing as a first step towards virtue. You are actively working on finding answers. It's up to you how you proceed, if you keep going. Only you can do that. Does the book deal with the topic in question? It's a good book. Witty, very entertaining and sci-fi. ('bucket list' grade) It doesn't specifically speak about your questions, though through satire of various cultural elements it certainly gave me a broader view on social patterns, references to what it means in a sense of being a human, might mean to be an alien...at times I cried from laughter so hard, that I almost fell from my chair. If you're asking me to choose for you, can't help. Make up your own mind, it will be the right choice I'm sure. ---- Barnsley

Hi @GSTARR You might not be happy to read what I've written but I'd like you to know, my intent is to help you understand my criticism and get better at it. I thought about what would be a good way to explain and provide good examples. Have you missed the first post by any chance? or You didn't but preferred to skip it? (Either case, your free choice. I'm only noticing the lack of connection.) I wouldn't say it's harmonious with the thread or preferably a constructive contribution, so far. (missing the point of the thread) What do you mean when you use the word "key" ? (I can think of 3+ possible, yet different meanings: vice, requirement, way... etc.) If I understand your logic correctly, according to what you put forward, willpower is analogous to... for example, eating. i. e. in... That's, I would say is bad logic(well,just unproductive) because it's something like a circular argument. It's circular argumentation in fact. By the way, someone before you had already made a circular argument. In this thread. Before. (I wonder... How much had you read of the thread?) Regards, Barnsley

Sure, bud. Those are (I think too) good observations. No, you always answered correctly. You spoke your mind, that's always correct. I wasn't saying anything other than clarifying stuff... y'know to be on the same wavelength, have a common-ish ground. I recommend you have a look at the big 5 personality assessment by Jordan B Peterson and a generic test on learning styles if you are interested in more details regarding the second point. Have a good one @Spladam, Barnsley

Hi @RichardY I'm having trouble seeing reciprocity. Maybe I'm missing something. That's OK. I still don't think we're approaching common ground and I don't know anything else to ask you. That's also fine with me. See you later, Barnsley

Hi @RichardY I still wish to discuss the main idea about 'If a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER had taught at the Jedi academy...' though your proposed topics look reeeeally interesting. Perhaps I can imagine myself contributing to a thread about your topics but as of yet Not here, not now I'm afraid. (and I fully understand this thread is filled with many would've, could've, should've - s but hey, I am intrigued by the idea. Probably for a good reason and curious what others have to say about said topic) What other ramifications do you see a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER would have brought to the Jedi, other than my example? Barnsley

An ideal to be strived for, people generally call reality and preferably has been stripped of subjective projections. very good question, let me try to make a good example (using a cliché ) You walk with your friend in the forest and he points down at the ground, asking: 'What's that?' you might (ask for clarification first,) then proceed by saying: - Those are two sticks. Do you know what I'm saying? or - That's two sticks in formation. The letter 'T' or 'L'. Are you familiar with them? or That's part of the forest. Did you mean that? and so on... but any and all of the above are preferable (if reality is aimed for) than saying: - Nothing is there. It's all a dream, but be careful it can turn into a hungry pink tiger with shorts and converse sneakers on. - It's a letter 'O' or 'Q' - I don't care. Stop asking 'silly' questions. I'm hungry. Sure, I answer those questions very often with 101% success. Very simple, really. It's 42. (jokingly, but respectfully, if interested, have a read of Douglas Adams - The hitchiker's guide to...) - - - - now, seriously while still being transparent - - - - This is the 'wrong question' in my humble, humble, very humble opinion. because that suggests.. I was NOT isolated prior. But I WAS isolated. More specifically I experienced for decades the soul sucking phenomena called 'proximity isolation'. i. e. - I chose myself various best friends in the past who when it suited them quite happily betrayed me not having qualms about their own morality. I can see all the red flags I had been waiving away, never once looking out properly for myself... and I also know where I learnt that, why I learnt new approaches and having chosen to reborn out of my ashes and seeking red-pills. Thanks, scientifc method, virtuous people shining a light on my way in the dark. I am working for your statement to mirror my current reality but I am not complaining with what I already have, knowing what I know. It's like : No more wax-fruits for me, I rather have a small but real sandwich instead and look for ways to find more. If I wasn't, surely eating all that wax would turn me into a mindless doll. If I was amongst people the opposite of virtuous? Yes, you could say that. Very much you could say that. In fact, that's why I love virtuous people so much. Involuntarily if I might add. Like my favourite colour. I love it, no two minds about it. What's more important if I'd go back to my previous place/state/scenarios/situation. Or if I would revisit it temporarily because, well, a little bit is ok I suppose. It won't hurt if I.. Honesty, after realising what those situations/people/dynamics were, and how it affected me... no way. It's not possible. Pushing through a square object through a circular hole. Thank reason & evidence it can't be done. Just as an expanded mind can't be shrunk back without damaging it. For that I'm ever grateful. I'm going to sound silly but I am being serious. Just wanted to warn you / clarify before you proceed. My answer is: Mainly by observing. Not doing much really, other than existing having virtues internalised and living it. Very important! Start with this. Forget everything else (don't think of an apple!) but seriously if you asked me to give you the top #1 best and ultimate guide to starting that's guaranteed to work for finding virtue(s). Develop your ability to distinguish between the presence and absence of virtue. That's it. Make sure you got that right or you won't get any further. Respectfully, Barnsley P.S : if you are thinking about asking How's that done? It might surprise you to realise that you are already doing it. Can you guess what do I mean?

Aaaand a bit more... (hope you don't mind me meddling in your comments, I highlighted my additions for differentiating between what was your original contribution.) Great points, thanks again. Barnsley

Great pointers. (Star Wars related, the other could be perhaps in another thread if I was asked. Also very good pointers, nevertheless.) Very interesting. Thanks, Barnsley

This is new. (Or I haven't noticed the added scripts before... niiice.) Thanks for that @MMD Barnsley edit: [Podcasts] are always coming with scripts. I missed it. Glad I found out... (no more copy&paste from the other part of the platform)